Russia-Ukrainian War

[mcliu]

Azov commander & hero of Ukraine has made it on CNN!

Btw, he's also a neo-nazi, but who cares as long as he's killing Russians right?

https://multipolarista.com/2022/03/21/cnn-nazi-ukraine-azov/

[mcliu]

This conflict is a highlight of western hypocrisy

 

War crime: Russia bombing Mariupol

 

Not a war crime: US flattening Mosul

 

Not a war crime: NATO forces bombing Chinese embassy

 

 

Afghanistan withdrawal:

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/u-s-says-2-isis-k-planners-killed-in-drone-strike-in-afghanistan-1.5563494

Oh shit, turns out it was 10 civilians, including 7 children. Not a war crime. No punishment.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/13/us/politics/afghanistan-drone-strike.html

No U.S. Troops Will Be Punished for Deadly Kabul Strike, Pentagon Chief Decides

The military initially defended the strike, which killed 10 civilians including seven children, but ultimately called it a tragic mistake.

[Gregmal]

What I found hilarious is the medias role in attempting to manipulate people and how blatant it is. For instance, the other day I saw a headline about "Russia weaponizing energy" with all sorts of negative and condescending narrative attached...and thought, gee the adjective makes all the difference. Russia's energy prowess is like the US/EU banking prowess. Except when we weaponize the banking system its called "sanctions" and deemed an act of solidarity with peace! LOL so dumb. 

[Spekulatius]

@mcliu Mosul was indeed a mistake (imo), but you realize that many civilians died not because of the bombing, but because of secondary explosions from ammunition cache stored in civilian housing as well as from a bomb truck that happened to blow up as well.

 

In a war and with enough fire power, you are going to hit targets that you don't want to hit. That's different than deliberately targeting civilians like the Russians are doing.

 

Also China was aligning themselves with the genocidal Serbians at that time, same than the Russians. Doesn't justify the bombing, but again you have to ask yourself what business they had in this and there was debate whether they supported the Serbians with Weapons as the Russians did.

Edited March 28, 2022 by Spekulatius

[cubsfan]

^^^ Civilian casualties are a huge tragedy. Of course, the Russians are targeting them, time & time again - 

not by mistake - but for the sake of it. So understand your outrage, but it certainly doesn't measure up

at all - when the West makes a tragic mistake. It's war - and there will always be terrible tragedies.

 

 

[mcliu]

Russians believe in Russian propaganda.

Americans believe in American propaganda.

[Gregmal]

Yup. The only thing of certainty right now is that there's conflict and that unfortunately civilians are being harmed because of things they likely have nothing to do with. If you're believing or buying into all the shit on Twitter or MSM there is a high likelihood you are being duped. 

[Dinar]

58 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

@mcliu Mosul was indeed a mistake (imo), but you realize that many civilians died not because of the bombing, but because of secondary explosions from ammunition cache stored in civilian housing as well as from a bomb truck that happened to blow up as well.

 

In a war and with enough fire power, you are going to hit targets that you don't want to hit. That's different than deliberately targeting civilians like the Russians are doing.

 

Also China was aligning themselves with the genocidal Serbians at that time, same than the Russians. Doesn't justify the bombing, but again you have to ask yourself what business they had in this and there was debate whether they supported the Serbians with Weapons as the Russians did.

You are not being fair.  When Bosnians and Croats wanted to secede from Yugoslavia, Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia wanted to secede from Bosnia and Croatia.  Given the history of Muslim genocide of Christians, and Croatian atrocities in WWII, completely understandable. Why were Bosnians and Croats allowed to secede from Yugoslavia but Serbs are not?  Had Bosnians and Croats allowed Serbs to secede - giving Serbs the same self-determination rights that the Croats & Bosnians with Western help wanted to get, there is a very good possibility that the civil war in Yugoslavia would not have happened.  

[no_free_lunch]

5 hours ago, mcliu said:

Azov commander & hero of Ukraine has made it on CNN!

Btw, he's also a neo-nazi, but who cares as long as he's killing Russians right?

https://multipolarista.com/2022/03/21/cnn-nazi-ukraine-azov/

I remember reading about that time the Ukrainians had to fight the Nazi's and millions of their people died.  Actually a lot of the cities we read about now got annihilated back then too.  Lots of fun.

 

So by your logic the US should be bombed out and children greased because I saw some kkk in Charlottesville.  Got it.

[no_free_lunch]

3 hours ago, Dinar said:

You are not being fair.  When Bosnians and Croats wanted to secede from Yugoslavia, Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia wanted to secede from Bosnia and Croatia.  Given the history of Muslim genocide of Christians, and Croatian atrocities in WWII, completely understandable. Why were Bosnians and Croats allowed to secede from Yugoslavia but Serbs are not?  Had Bosnians and Croats allowed Serbs to secede - giving Serbs the same self-determination rights that the Croats & Bosnians with Western help wanted to get, there is a very good possibility that the civil war in Yugoslavia would not have happened.  

Fair enough but if I'm following the thread that would maybe, and I don't agree myself, mean Russia involvement in Donetsk. Did they get so lost that they ended up west of Kiev?  Seems the whole thing is a pretext for Russia to invade pure and simple. Just like Chechnya or Georgia, they can always make up some excuse.

[mcliu]

16 minutes ago, no_free_lunch said:

I remember reading about that time the Ukrainians had to fight the Nazi's and millions of their people died.  Actually a lot of the cities we read about now got annihilated back then too.  Lots of fun.

 

So by your logic the US should be bombed out and children greased because I saw some kkk in Charlottesville.  Got it.

Like this guy right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera Another Hero of Ukraine.

 

Sorry, my bad. Let me follow your logic.

 

Ukraine good. Russia bad.

Ukraine good. Russia bad.

Ukraine good. Russia bad.

[Spekulatius]

3 hours ago, Dinar said:

You are not being fair.  When Bosnians and Croats wanted to secede from Yugoslavia, Serbs in Bosnia and Croatia wanted to secede from Bosnia and Croatia.  Given the history of Muslim genocide of Christians, and Croatian atrocities in WWII, completely understandable. Why were Bosnians and Croats allowed to secede from Yugoslavia but Serbs are not?  Had Bosnians and Croats allowed Serbs to secede - giving Serbs the same self-determination rights that the Croats & Bosnians with Western help wanted to get, there is a very good possibility that the civil war in Yugoslavia would not have happened.  

You may want to read up on "Greater Serbia" and Milosevic. Bosnia Herzegovina would not exist according to this plan, even though Serbians are the minority there.

 

This war went on for a long time , starting in 1991 and NATO / the European did nothing. US under Clinton went in and finally put an end to this tragedy. About 200k people were killed in this war and if it weren't for US intervention, there would have been a whole lot more.

 

All the while, the Serbian got massive help / weapons from Russia. Russia apparently liked to stoke this war in Europe. Right now, the Serbians are about the only country in Europe that sticks with the Russians after the Ukraine invasion.

 

That's why the straw man arguments that's it's all the same are weak.

[no_free_lunch]

33 minutes ago, mcliu said:

Like this guy right? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stepan_Bandera Another Hero of Ukraine.

 

Sorry, my bad. Let me follow your logic.

 

Ukraine good. Russia bad.

Ukraine good. Russia bad.

Ukraine good. Russia bad.

You didn't really address any of my logic did you?  What do you got a link?  You just want to bypass the fact that every western country has nazi types and try to paint an entire country based on piece meal evidence.  Shit logic and you know it. 

 

Heres a link from France. What's your point?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Pétain

Edited March 28, 2022 by no_free_lunch

[Dinar]

Spek, i remember reading NYT during the conflict.  Somehow it is ok for Serbs to be ruled by Muslims and Croats who have murdered them over the years but not the other way around?  Kosovo given to Albanians and Serbs expelled, fair?  I am not justifying Russian invasion but it is hypocritical to hit Serbs and not Bosnians or Croats, condemn Russia but not when US & France bomb Libya to kill Quaddafi in the last decade or US invasion of Iraq in 2003.  UK & Poland may have forgotten UPA (Bandera) but Serbs remember who helped them against Turks

[mcliu]

2 hours ago, no_free_lunch said:

You didn't really address any of my logic did you?  What do you got a link?  You just want to bypass the fact that every western country has nazi types and try to paint an entire country based on piece meal evidence.  Shit logic and you know it. 

 

Heres a link from France. What's your point?

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippe_Pétain

Which current NATO country has Neo-nazi mayors, a Neo-nazi battalion within their armed forces and Neo-nazi govt officials? Please name some.

I'm not saying Ukraine is the third reich, but is there really no nazi problem? 

https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

 

I am not here to justify Russia's invasion. War is horrible and civilians suffer. Elites are fine.

My point is Western hypocrisy: NATO elites & Ukrainian govt played equal role in escalation with Russia.

MSM hypocrisy, fake news, narrative creation: Proud Boys bad, Azov good. Russia bad, Ukraine good. 

 

 

[Viking]

25 minutes ago, mcliu said:

Which current NATO country has Neo-nazi mayors, a Neo-nazi battalion within their armed forces and Neo-nazi govt officials? Please name some.

I'm not saying Ukraine is the third reich, but is there really no nazi problem? 

https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

 

I am not here to justify Russia's invasion. War is horrible and civilians suffer. Elites are fine.

My point is Western hypocrisy: NATO elites & Ukrainian govt played equal role in escalation with Russia.

MSM hypocrisy, fake news, narrative creation: Proud Boys bad, Azov good. Russia bad, Ukraine good. 

At the end of the day, people and nations are judged by their ACTIONS. And the worse the actions the harsher the judgement. Putin/Russia invaded Ukraine and it has become a humanitarian catastrophe. Tens of thousands of people have been killed and injured. Millions of people have been displaced. Cities have been destroyed. And Russia’s war could be just GETTING STARTED. 

 

As the entire city and population - including women, children and those unable to leave - of Mariupol is getting destroyed and bludgeoned by Russia do i really care right now if parts of the Ukraine forces fighting to defend the city have neo-Nazi leanings? No. Why? Because they are likely the only thing able to prevent even more Ukrainian civilians in the city getting slaughtered. Sometimes you have to pick your poison. 
 

Putin/Russia started this war and they are the ones who will decide when it will end. At this stage it looks like Putin wants land. Crimea. Land bridge to Crimea. Maybe even large swaths of East Ukraine. At the end of the the day that is what this was all about… getting some land. Idiotic. And now all of Russia will live with the consequences for decades (much lower standard of living). Is there a lesson in all this? A democracy can quickly slip into a dictatorship and, once it happens, it rarely ends well. 
 

 

[no_free_lunch]

38 minutes ago, mcliu said:

Which current NATO country has Neo-nazi mayors, a Neo-nazi battalion within their armed forces and Neo-nazi govt officials? Please name some.

I'm not saying Ukraine is the third reich, but is there really no nazi problem? 

https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

 

I am not here to justify Russia's invasion. War is horrible and civilians suffer. Elites are fine.

My point is Western hypocrisy: NATO elites & Ukrainian govt played equal role in escalation with Russia.

MSM hypocrisy, fake news, narrative creation: Proud Boys bad, Azov good. Russia bad, Ukraine good. 

 

 

 

There are far right in the Canadian military.  France has Marine Le Pen.  The US has kkk.  Israeli settlers say comments that are not nazi but have the same racial purity sentiment. I think this stuff is everywhere. 

 

I'm not saying there is not a problem but I think it's exaggerated.  Azov is something around 1000 while the Ukrainian army has 300-400k members.

 

If we are going to talk about Nazi's let's talk about mass murder at the true industrial scale. This is Ukraine history from the 30s during Holodomor.  This is the history preceding Bandera. You kill off huge segments of the population you are going to get extremism. 

 

Ukraine is not the "good" guy but they are sure a victim. The Russia government, is definitely the bad guy.  I don't need MSM to figure that out.  I didn't care for them after Chechnya which was when I tuned in and have not seen much positive since.  That regime and predecessors has a long history of human rights abuses.  The proof is ultimately in people voting with their feet.  How many people want to go live in Russia? 

[Blugolds]

1 minute ago, mcliu said:

Which current NATO country has Neo-nazi mayors, a Neo-nazi battalion within their armed forces and Neo-nazi govt officials? Please name some.

I'm not saying Ukraine is the third reich, but is there really no nazi problem? 

https://forward.com/opinion/416751/why-does-no-one-care-that-neo-nazis-are-gaining-power-in-ukraine/

 

I am not here to justify Russia's invasion. War is horrible and civilians suffer. Elites are fine.

My point is Western hypocrisy: NATO elites & Ukrainian govt played equal role in escalation with Russia.

MSM hypocrisy, fake news, narrative creation: Proud Boys bad, Azov good. Russia bad, Ukraine good. 

 

 

 

Ukraine does have a Nazi problem...but I would say that EVERY country has a Nazi/Fascist problem, it is not specific to Ukraine.

 

I guess Im confused as to your position? You've made several comments about the Azov units...is this a surprise that Ukraine ALSO has these types?

 

You can find Neo-Nazi trash or similar ideology in every military in the world and probably every city...including Russia. 

 

Personally I dont think the narrative is:

 

Ukraine good, Russia Bad. 

 

I think its that the majority of Ukrainians are good, the majority of Russians are good, there are whackbags on both sides, just like any other country...its just happens that one Russian guy happens to rule his side and control the  military...and unfortunately he has no problem specifically targeted bombing of civilians.

 

As for your link to the Multipolarista website...that is extreme to say the least and clearly just anti-West, every single article written to stir the pot and paint the west as the problem and is predominantly pro-Russia/China, not one single criticism of any other country with all articles targeting US/NATO. So its hard to consider it any more credible than extreme websites in the US doing the same against Russia/China. 

 

You've stated Western Hypocracy...again is this news? Show me one country that is not hypocritical, does not spin a narrative, Russia is the KING of fake news, unless Im wrong and you're saying I should get all my info from RT? Maybe China gives a better picture of what is really going on? The lighthouse in a sea of disinformation?

 

You even said yourself:

Russians believe in Russian propaganda.

Americans believe in American propaganda.

 

This is true

 

Yet you only have a problem with Western Hypocrisy? MSM?

 

FYI Russia has the same issues: 

 

https://theconversation.com/putins-fascists-the-russian-states-long-history-of-cultivating-homegrown-neo-nazis-178535

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Imperial_Movement

https://www.rferl.org/a/russian_neonazi_sentences_welcomed/24263471.html

https://www.cidob.org/en/publications/publication_series/notes_internacionals/n1_128_russia_for_russians/russia_for_russians

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-51236915

 

I can keep going...China has them too...there are literally hundreds of Fascist groups in every country...sometimes they work their way up the ladder..There are even Fascists in Israel...

 

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium.MAGAZINE-when-jews-praised-mussolini-and-supported-nazis-meet-israel-s-first-fascists-1.7538589

https://www.timesofisrael.com/several-far-right-israelis-groups-said-on-extensive-facebook-blacklist/

https://www.aljazeera.com/opinions/2018/7/17/an-unlikely-union-israel-and-the-european-far-right

 

So I guess I dont get the point...cherry picking articles from any country exposing extreme views...they can literally be found in EVERY country. 

 

Im not saying the West/NATO is not without fault, just that it seems silly to me to focus on the problem of one country when it can be found everywhere and is not indicative of the general consensus of citizens. The majority of Russians/Ukrainians/Chinese/Americans/Israelis are good, and just want to live their life in peace and be left alone, have a decent job, home and family...

[SharperDingaan]

1M bounty for Putin's arrest, as at March 04. As at today; following Biden's Poland speech, it's quite a bit higher

Not as many 'conditions' either  https://fortune.com/2022/03/04/putin-bounty-russia-ukraine-1-million-dollars/

 

Last month (February) this was unimaginable. Today? it would appear the czar is loosing his grip.

A year from now? maybe it proves fatal? Putin isn't the communist party, and the communist party is very good at survival.

 

SD

 

 

 

[Xerxes]

I don’t believe Biden got emotional and let loose the “Putin must go”. He is smelling blood and like any other good politician he is positioning for that eventuality … and working on this re-election campaign at the same time. 
 

the job was left to his state secretary to give the formal government position.  

[Gregmal]

The guy forgot what he was even told to say and had to double check his cheat sheet notes. 

[Xerxes]

On the topic of war crimes or not. There is no point arguing. This is like shorting a good short against a rising market (public sentiment).  
 

It doesn’t pay to swim against the current. 
 

From my point of view, Putin, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bin Salman, are cut all from the same cloth. Blood thirsty men bent on domination.

 

The middle two are born in the U.S. so we classify them as “ambitious men” or if we want to be very extreme about them we would say “very ambitious men with great political acumen”. But never as what truly they are. 
 

no one answered my question from pages ago:  are General Lemay and General Westmoreland to be considered as war criminals. If not why not ?  They had one thing in common, they fought wars against Asians. 

[mcliu]

1 hour ago, Blugolds11 said:

You even said yourself:

Russians believe in Russian propaganda.

Americans believe in American propaganda.

 

This is true

 

Yet you only have a problem with Western Hypocrisy? MSM?

If you agree that the West does propaganda as well, if not better, than Russia, China then maybe it's possible that the mainstream Western narrative of Ukraine getting attacked unprovoked might be a product of Western propaganda? Maybe the truth lies somewhere between the Russian narrative and the Western narrative?

Maybe Mearsheimer is not completely wrong? https://www.mearsheimer.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/06/Why-the-Ukraine-Crisis-Is.pdf

 

And maybe the West is not sending weapons to Ukraine because of its benevolence and love for Ukrainian people (as the media portrays) but maybe it's an attempt to engage in a proxy war using Ukrainians to bleed Russians. Maybe the USA govt doesn't care if Ukraine gets destroyed and thousands of Ukrainians die as long as it weakens Russia?

 

I don't think anyone is under the impression that Russian/Chinese media isn't hypocritical. But I think many Westerners think Western media is the arbiter of truth with all the "fact-checking". Everyone else, like the Russians & Chinese are brainwashed because they view the world differently. Just like the liberals think conservatives are brainwashed, vice-versa.

 

 

[mcliu]

4 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

From my point of view, Putin, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bin Salman, are cut all from the same cloth. Blood thirsty men bent on domination.

Exactly, politicians & countries are all the same. There's no morality in geopolitics, only interests. And the winner writes the history.

[no_free_lunch]

11 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

On the topic of war crimes or not. There is no point arguing. This is like shorting a good short against a rising market (public sentiment).  
 

It doesn’t pay to swim against the current. 
 

From my point of view, Putin, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Bin Salman, are cut all from the same cloth. Blood thirsty men bent on domination.

 

The middle two are born in the U.S. so we classify them as “ambitious men” or if we want to be very extreme about them we would say “very ambitious men with great political acumen”. But never as what truly they are. 
 

no one answered my question from pages ago:  are General Lemay and General Westmoreland to be considered as war criminals. If not why not ?  They had one thing in common, they fought wars against Asians. 

I wouldn't consider Lemay a war criminal. He was responding to a military attack.  The rules of engagement were set by japan in that case. 

 

You are implying a racial motivation but the same tactics used by Lemay in Japan were implemented by Britain against Germany. 

 

I won't touch Westmoreland for the reason that I don't know enough about the situation.