What are you buying today?

[John Hjorth]

A bit more JOE.

[formthirteen]

Entering UNH. Stop me if you can. I will try to figure out if it's a falling knife later.

[KPO]

UNH & CI

[Red Lion]

NVO

[valueventures]

Starter position in MKO.V

[Junior R]

9 hours ago, KPO said:

UNH & CI

UNH forward PE of 11 or 12 now pretty cheap

[Marco Van Basten]

25 minutes ago, Junior R said:

UNH forward PE of 11 or 12 now pretty cheap

EBIT has doubled since 2017.  Why does this business deserve to exist?    Why does this business have $34bn of EBIT?   In the long run, we cannot have healthcare to continue increase as a % of GDP.  So where will the growth come from? 

[WayWardCloud]

I've been fantasizing about Amazon coming into the healthcare space at scale and wrecking these guys for too long to take a position here but it does seem cheap. When your CEOs are getting shot in the face it's fair to say you are ripe for disruption.

[KPO]

11 minutes ago, WayWardCloud said:

I've been fantasizing about Amazon coming into the healthcare space at scale and wrecking these guys for too long to take a position here but it does seem cheap. When your CEOs are getting shot in the face it's fair to say you are ripe for disruption.

I’d welcome that, but I think we all remember the abject failure that was Haven healthcare. It briefly tanked the sector. It’s a tough industry to crack and the reality is that UNH is a conglomerate with businesses that do and don’t add value to society, but on balance there is value here at a share price sub-$410.. A breakup is one of many possibilities. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an activist surface in the next few quarters. 

[Rainier]

36 minutes ago, KPO said:

I’d welcome that, but I think we all remember the abject failure that was Haven healthcare. It briefly tanked the sector. It’s a tough industry to crack and the reality is that UNH is a conglomerate with businesses that do and don’t add value to society, but on balance there is value here at a share price sub-$410.. A breakup is one of many possibilities. I wouldn’t be surprised to see an activist surface in the next few quarters. 

One of the most fascinating things about UNH (to me at least) is that they have a $17B bank buried inside of their company. Its liabilities are almost entirely HSA accounts, which by their nature are some of the most sticky and reliable low cost deposits in the US markets.  On the lending side, it’s a traditional commercial bank. 
 

Interestingly, if you are the crusading type and have a lot of hate for UNH, these HSA accounts are also annoying. They offer no investment offerings (other than the low interest deposit account) and make it very cumbersome to transfer funds into a decent HSA that has real investment options.  They benefit from the fact that the vast majority of the public are ignorant to the extremely beneficial tax status of the HSA account. As far as I know, it is the best tax-advantaged account in the US, and I would spitball that probably 90% of all HSA funds are tied up in low interest savings accounts. 

[Spekulatius]

2 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said:

EBIT has doubled since 2017.  Why does this business deserve to exist?    Why does this business have $34bn of EBIT?   In the long run, we cannot have healthcare to continue increase as a % of GDP.  So where will the growth come from? 

The business deserves to exist because nobody seems to be able to do it better. Demographics will lead to higher health care expenses everything else being equal.

 

UNH is an healthcare insurance business and that has been tough for the last 2 years, as peers have suffered too (CNC, HUM, ELV). Costs have been rising faster than premiums and that won’t continue forever, just like other insurance markets they will adjust.  So I think UNH and other health care will see margin mean revert.

[Red Lion]

2 hours ago, Rainier said:

One of the most fascinating things about UNH (to me at least) is that they have a $17B bank buried inside of their company. Its liabilities are almost entirely HSA accounts, which by their nature are some of the most sticky and reliable low cost deposits in the US markets.  On the lending side, it’s a traditional commercial bank. 
 

Interestingly, if you are the crusading type and have a lot of hate for UNH, these HSA accounts are also annoying. They offer no investment offerings (other than the low interest deposit account) and make it very cumbersome to transfer funds into a decent HSA that has real investment options.  They benefit from the fact that the vast majority of the public are ignorant to the extremely beneficial tax status of the HSA account. As far as I know, it is the best tax-advantaged account in the US, and I would spitball that probably 90% of all HSA funds are tied up in low interest savings accounts. 

 

I'm going to display my stupidity here, because I haven't pulled the trigger on an HSA. I think my current health plan is not a high deductible plan as defined by the IRS, I could probably look into switching that if the numbers penciled out. You can contribute about $8500 per year for a family, treated sort of like an IRA. Then you can take the money out to use it for allowed expenses as needed or let it ride until you're 65 and then withdraw it with similar tax treatment to an IRA? There's no RMD. You can self direct investments. Am I missing something? Seems like something I definitely want to consider, but I'd definitely need a different insurance policy. It seems like unless my premiums are significantly lower then I would give up most of the benefits by paying a higher family deductible. 

[Blugolds]

1 hour ago, Red Lion said:

 

I'm going to display my stupidity here, because I haven't pulled the trigger on an HSA. I think my current health plan is not a high deductible plan as defined by the IRS, I could probably look into switching that if the numbers penciled out. You can contribute about $8500 per year for a family, treated sort of like an IRA. Then you can take the money out to use it for allowed expenses as needed or let it ride until you're 65 and then withdraw it with similar tax treatment to an IRA? There's no RMD. You can self direct investments. Am I missing something? Seems like something I definitely want to consider, but I'd definitely need a different insurance policy. It seems like unless my premiums are significantly lower then I would give up most of the benefits by paying a higher family deductible. 

yes seems like you get it, I’ve contributed max to HSA for over a decade, pay all expenses out of pocket and let the contributions compound, able to invest them in a variety of products, in the past my employer offered HSA through different provider but this new one they switched to offers more options. Save receipts for medical expenses to be deducted in future years, the only triple tax advantaged vehicle available. If you don’t need to use the money to help cover expenses and you can let it ride it’s a good gig albeit IMO low contribution limitations. Many retirees pay around $1k/mo for medical coverage, you would think they would allow that much in contributions rather than the paltry single/family contribution limits

[lnofeisone]

7 hours ago, Red Lion said:

 

I'm going to display my stupidity here, because I haven't pulled the trigger on an HSA. I think my current health plan is not a high deductible plan as defined by the IRS, I could probably look into switching that if the numbers penciled out. You can contribute about $8500 per year for a family, treated sort of like an IRA. Then you can take the money out to use it for allowed expenses as needed or let it ride until you're 65 and then withdraw it with similar tax treatment to an IRA? There's no RMD. You can self direct investments. Am I missing something? Seems like something I definitely want to consider, but I'd definitely need a different insurance policy. It seems like unless my premiums are significantly lower then I would give up most of the benefits by paying a higher family deductible. 

I find that family numbers generally don't pencil out (we are 2 adults + 2 children, generally healthy but kids have A LOT of visits). At best, we would break even so having HDHP + HSA is just extra overhead. My strategy on HSA was max it out when I was 20-40. I also saved enough receipts just in case I need to tap into HSA. 

[Rainier]

7 hours ago, Blugolds said:

yes seems like you get it, I’ve contributed max to HSA for over a decade, pay all expenses out of pocket and let the contributions compound, able to invest them in a variety of products, in the past my employer offered HSA through different provider but this new one they switched to offers more options. Save receipts for medical expenses to be deducted in future years, the only triple tax advantaged vehicle available. If you don’t need to use the money to help cover expenses and you can let it ride it’s a good gig albeit IMO low contribution limitations. Many retirees pay around $1k/mo for medical coverage, you would think they would allow that much in contributions rather than the paltry single/family contribution limits

Yes, this is right.  Max out the contributions, never distribute anything, pay for medical costs with my own (post tax) cash.

 

The beauty of the HSA is that the contributions are pre tax, the gains aren’t taxed, and the distributions aren’t taxed (as long as you use them for healthcare costs). Everyone will always have some type of healthcare costs, and the range of what you can use them for is extremely liberal.

 

The obvious caveat is that you have a higher deductible. If you are young or just don’t need to go to the doctor often, then it probably works out to be beneficial. If you have a big family or know of some huge medical expense, it might not. I run the math every year with assumptions for the family’s medical expenses plus compounding the tax-free HSA contributions versus compounding the post-tax deductible savings and the HSA has won out so far.

 

One other factor is that a lot of employers will contribute some portion of the $8,500 HSA funding. Kind of like a 401K match.

[Rainier]

8 hours ago, Red Lion said:

You can self direct investments. 

This is a sticking point though. You can’t self-direct in most HSA accounts. A lot of them force you into a low interest rate bank savings account basically (UNH/Optum’s business model). If you are going to constantly be tapping the HSA to pay for immediate medical expenses, then this would make sense. And a lot of employers won’t let you setup contributions directly to your choice of HSA provider; you can only use the one bundled with the insurance provider (again, see Optum/UNH). 

 

But if the only reason you have the account is to take advantage of the triple taxation benefit, then it sucks. 
 

However, you can transfer funds to whatever HSA provider you want. The problem is that the providers make it purposefully cumbersome to do so. I was lucky enough to have an employer for a long time that let me just choose what provider to directly contribute to. But otherwise I just let the funds accumulate and make a distribution once a year.

[Castanza]

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

This is a sticking point though. You can’t self-direct in most HSA accounts. A lot of them force you into a low interest rate bank savings account basically (UNH/Optum’s business model). If you are going to constantly be tapping the HSA to pay for immediate medical expenses, then this would make sense. And a lot of employers won’t let you setup contributions directly to your choice of HSA provider; you can only use the one bundled with the insurance provider (again, see Optum/UNH). 

 

But if the only reason you have the account is to take advantage of the triple taxation benefit, then it sucks. 
 

However, you can transfer funds to whatever HSA provider you want. The problem is that the providers make it purposefully cumbersome to do so. I was lucky enough to have an employer for a long time that let me just choose what provider to directly contribute to. But otherwise I just let the funds accumulate and make a distribution once a year.

 

I have an HSA through UNH/Optum and it is managed through Betterment. The options are similar to those found in most 401ks. I have mine in an S&P 500 fund. 

[thepupil]

as long as you leave employers occasionally, just roll to fidelity where you can invest as you wish.

 

I no longer contribute to HSA because not best health plan for family, but have accumulated $60K or so from $20K or so of contributions some years back. I don't really do the whole save receipts thing and am just think of it as a traditional IRA/healthcare emergency fund (that I'd never use).

[Rainier]

58 minutes ago, thepupil said:

as long as you leave employers occasionally, just roll to fidelity where you can invest as you wish.

 

I no longer contribute to HSA because not best health plan for family, but have accumulated $60K or so from $20K or so of contributions some years back. I don't really do the whole save receipts thing and am just think of it as a traditional IRA/healthcare emergency fund (that I'd never use).

Yeah transferring funds periodically to a Fidelity HSA is the most logical solution. They treat it like an IRA basically, so you can access individual stocks, options trading, etc.

[Junior R]

sold naked put on UNH $310 expiring Dec 19 2025 for $40

[dwy000]

7 minutes ago, Junior R said:

sold naked put on UNH $310 expiring Dec 19 2025 for $40

Thats actually a great idea. Might look at January tho to put it into next tax year. 

[dipod]

Shorted puts on LLY. 

[vakilkp]

5 hours ago, thepupil said:

as long as you leave employers occasionally, just roll to fidelity where you can invest as you wish.

 

I no longer contribute to HSA because not best health plan for family, but have accumulated $60K or so from $20K or so of contributions some years back. I don't really do the whole save receipts thing and am just think of it as a traditional IRA/healthcare emergency fund (that I'd never use).

You could also save the EOBs (explanation of benefits) which your insurance company should be able to provide.  EOBs could be used instead of receipts as long as there is the amount you paid listed. 

[brobro777]

6 hours ago, Rainier said:

Yeah transferring funds periodically to a Fidelity HSA is the most logical solution. They treat it like an IRA basically, so you can access individual stocks, options trading, etc.

 

Yea Fidelity HSA is good, I rolled over my HSA Bank/TD Ameritrade and they moved all the info over like my cost basis in VOO over the years

 

Damn California Franchise board taxes gains in my HSA tho, that sux ass

 

 

[winjitsu]

On 5/14/2025 at 7:54 AM, WayWardCloud said:

I've been fantasizing about Amazon coming into the healthcare space at scale and wrecking these guys for too long to take a position here but it does seem cheap. When your CEOs are getting shot in the face it's fair to say you are ripe for disruption.

They tried with BRK and JPM and failed. It's way to hard.