Alcohol and Coffee are fine and which one is better?

[Haryana]

Express your vote based on your actual consumption preference.

[Xerxes]

Great thread. 
 

I consume minimum 1x latte with a double espresso every morning.
 

Sometimes twice that everyday. Rarely do I buy coffee at work. (Low quality) 
 

[flesh]

You want to find coffees 3rd party tested for toxins and mold. Costs more. Many coffee packed with anti nutrients. 
 

also you need to wait at least 1 hour after waking to drink it ideally 90 minutes. Limit to double shot espresso caffeine equivalent. Has to do with adenosine levels and actually benefitting from it. 
 

don’t drink any caffeine for 12 hours before bed, proven to disrupt deep sleep cycles. 

[boilermaker75]

1 hour ago, flesh said:

You want to find coffees 3rd party tested for toxins and mold. Costs more. Many coffee packed with anti nutrients. 
 

also you need to wait at least 1 hour after waking to drink it ideally 90 minutes. Limit to double shot espresso caffeine equivalent. Has to do with adenosine levels and actually benefitting from it. 
 

don’t drink any caffeine for 12 hours before bed, proven to disrupt deep sleep cycles. 

 

Could you expand on your adenosine comments? After a good night's rest your adenosine should be at their lowest levels. Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors, but you don't have any, or much, adenosine to block. TIA

[Castanza]

Whiskey in the coffee 

[Gamecock-YT]

I received an Oura ring for Christmas, I had read prior that it would hammer away how bad alcohol was for your sleep, but wow. Seeing your heart rate, heart rate volatility, and REM and deep sleep without alcohol and with alcohol is quite striking. 

[LC]

Wine wins

[flesh]

7 hours ago, boilermaker75 said:

 

Could you expand on your adenosine comments? After a good night's rest your adenosine should be at their lowest levels. Caffeine blocks adenosine receptors, but you don't have any, or much, adenosine to block. TIA

See below. The problem is insofar as we know is multi faceted. Caffeine works better after adenosine levels have come down. Also sleep studies show some correlations with better sleep if you wait 90 minutes. There’s strong evidence that drinking more than two shots espresso equivalent for an average male affects sleep quality. Also very strong evidence that drinking within 12 hours of sleep time does as well. The closer to sleep time of course it’s non linearly worse. 
 

I’ve been focused on optimizing sleep for about a year now… love espresso so had to get it dialed. 
 

anecdotally, I’ve found the above true. Also it helped reduce sluggishness later in the day. Also most have a habit of drinking when they wake and then needed more and they just are horribly out of rhythm but don’t know different. 
 

I have Brian Johnson’s nutty putty pudding recipe upon waking (with the nuts on the side so it’s a smoothie) and a tbsp of high polyphenol olive oil and w protein added and feel great. Double shot 90 minutes after waking. No more caffeine. 

 

 

Adenosine levels follow a natural cycle throughout the day and night, primarily influenced by sleep and wakefulness. Here’s how adenosine levels change during sleep and after waking:

1. Adenosine Levels During Sleep:

• Throughout the night, adenosine levels gradually increase as a byproduct of brain activity and cellular processes. This buildup of adenosine is thought to promote sleepiness and the need for rest.

• The more deeply you sleep, the higher the adenosine levels become. The longer the sleep period, the greater the adenosine buildup, which contributes to the feeling of “sleep debt” that needs to be recovered.

2. Adenosine Levels 1–2 Hours After Waking:

• After waking, adenosine levels begin to decrease because the body starts using energy and processing the byproducts of the previous day’s brain activity.

• 1 hour after waking: Adenosine levels are still relatively high but beginning to drop. You might still feel some sleepiness or grogginess at this point.

• 2 hours after waking: Adenosine levels continue to decline and you’ll generally feel more alert, as the body’s natural wakefulness processes ramp up. By this point, your body has likely cleared a significant portion of adenosine, and the sleep inertia (grogginess) begins to dissipate.

 

Drinking caffeine during the early stages of waking (especially within the first 30–60 minutes) may not have as potent an effect since adenosine levels are still relatively high. However, waiting a bit longer (like 90 minutes or so) allows adenosine levels to decrease, and this can make the caffeine more effective at enhancing alertness.

[Castanza]

7 hours ago, flesh said:

See below. The problem is insofar as we know is multi faceted. Caffeine works better after adenosine levels have come down. Also sleep studies show some correlations with better sleep if you wait 90 minutes. There’s strong evidence that drinking more than two shots espresso equivalent for an average male affects sleep quality. Also very strong evidence that drinking within 12 hours of sleep time does as well. The closer to sleep time of course it’s non linearly worse. 
 

I’ve been focused on optimizing sleep for about a year now… love espresso so had to get it dialed. 
 

anecdotally, I’ve found the above true. Also it helped reduce sluggishness later in the day. Also most have a habit of drinking when they wake and then needed more and they just are horribly out of rhythm but don’t know different. 
 

I have Brian Johnson’s nutty putty pudding recipe upon waking (with the nuts on the side so it’s a smoothie) and a tbsp of high polyphenol olive oil and w protein added and feel great. Double shot 90 minutes after waking. No more caffeine. 

 

 

Adenosine levels follow a natural cycle throughout the day and night, primarily influenced by sleep and wakefulness. Here’s how adenosine levels change during sleep and after waking:

1. Adenosine Levels During Sleep:

• Throughout the night, adenosine levels gradually increase as a byproduct of brain activity and cellular processes. This buildup of adenosine is thought to promote sleepiness and the need for rest.

• The more deeply you sleep, the higher the adenosine levels become. The longer the sleep period, the greater the adenosine buildup, which contributes to the feeling of “sleep debt” that needs to be recovered.

2. Adenosine Levels 1–2 Hours After Waking:

• After waking, adenosine levels begin to decrease because the body starts using energy and processing the byproducts of the previous day’s brain activity.

• 1 hour after waking: Adenosine levels are still relatively high but beginning to drop. You might still feel some sleepiness or grogginess at this point.

• 2 hours after waking: Adenosine levels continue to decline and you’ll generally feel more alert, as the body’s natural wakefulness processes ramp up. By this point, your body has likely cleared a significant portion of adenosine, and the sleep inertia (grogginess) begins to dissipate.

 

Drinking caffeine during the early stages of waking (especially within the first 30–60 minutes) may not have as potent an effect since adenosine levels are still relatively high. However, waiting a bit longer (like 90 minutes or so) allows adenosine levels to decrease, and this can make the caffeine more effective at enhancing alertness.

Damn you really went down the rabbit hole didn’t you? Does the stress of figuring all this out affect your sleep? 
 

For me: 

- No coffee after 1 

- Drink at least two Nalgene of water 

- Exercise

- Read before bed

- If your mind is racing write a list things down

[boilermaker75]

Thanks @flesh

 

I was under the impression that adenosine continuously builds as you are awake causing that sleep pressure and that it gets removed while you sleep by your glymphatic system. And that the way caffeine makes you feel awake is that it can out compete adenosine, but does not change your adenosine levels that continue to build.

 

I'll have to do more research!

[TwoCitiesCapital]

 

12 hours ago, Gamecock-YT said:

I received an Oura ring for Christmas, I had read prior that it would hammer away how bad alcohol was for your sleep, but wow. Seeing your heart rate, heart rate volatility, and REM and deep sleep without alcohol and with alcohol is quite striking. 

 

Same. You can tell exactly when dry January stopped based on my heart rate variability changing. 

 

Not sure what do with the data to the extent that I don't know how much of a health difference having a heart rate variability in the upper 30s/lower 40s is vs having it in the lower 30s, but you can definitely see the physiological impact it has. 

Edited Sunday at 03:53 PM by TwoCitiesCapital

[boilermaker75]

14 hours ago, Gamecock-YT said:

I received an Oura ring for Christmas, I had read prior that it would hammer away how bad alcohol was for your sleep, but wow. Seeing your heart rate, heart rate volatility, and REM and deep sleep without alcohol and with alcohol is quite striking. 

 

The greatest known suppressant of REM sleep is alcohol. So alcohol is used in studies to look at what REM sleep does.

[flesh]

I had to go down to 1/8-1/4 cup vodka mixed no later than 1pm to notice no effect on sleep. 1/4 with meal 1/8 without and only on non workout days.. post workout the effects on sleep is worse. Day drinking is healthier. Doesn’t seem like much but over time your tolerance goes down and I still get a buzz. Little anecdotal tidbit.. the healthier you body is.. your desire for any drink diminishes automatically. 

 

[Haryana]

Warren would say nay to both. 

 

Most people know that he avoids alcohol but it might come as new information to most that he avoids coffee too.

[Parsad]

Everything in moderation.  Neither is 100% good for you and neither is 100% bad for you. 

 

Life is too short to completely exclude either...unless you have a problem with one or the other...then you must abstain.

 

Cheers!

[rkbabang]

I drink coffee everyday and only drink alcohol on occasion - maybe 10-15 times per year. So I hope coffee is better for you. 

[rogermunibond]

Almost every metaanalysis of coffee has shown little to no risk for overall human health iirc.  All the outlier studies that linked to cardiac events or some other issue were not replicated.

 

Can't same the same for alcohol which does have real downsides - addiction/substance use disorder and cancer.

 

BTW, THC use is going to be more like alcohol - there's just a small percentage of people who have risk for bad effects on THC use.  Similar to the percentage at risk for SUD.

[Haryana]

https://www.amenclinics.com/blog/what-does-coffee-really-do-to-your-brain/

"Nearly 75% of Americans drink coffee every day, and coffee is the highest consumed psychoactive drug in the world. While not everyone drinks a massive amount of coffee a day, even three or more cups can be problematic for optimal brain function."

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1028415X.2021.1945858

"High coffee consumption was associated with smaller total brain volumes and increased odds of dementia."

 

[flesh]

3 hours ago, Haryana said:

https://www.amenclinics.com/blog/what-does-coffee-really-do-to-your-brain/

"Nearly 75% of Americans drink coffee every day, and coffee is the highest consumed psychoactive drug in the world. While not everyone drinks a massive amount of coffee a day, even three or more cups can be problematic for optimal brain function."

 

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/1028415X.2021.1945858

"High coffee consumption was associated with smaller total brain volumes and increased odds of dementia."

 

I can’t prove it but It’s probably true… most coffees are high in toxins and or mold. This is the majority of the problem. It’s a it’s not natural problem it’s a function of what’s changed since evolutionary times. What happens if you drink mold and toxins 2-3 x a day for decades to your brain?

 

Same for red meat studies.. they don’t use or control for lifelong grass fed meat eaters. Grass fed meat is 3or4/1 omega 3/6 ratio non grass fed beef/lamb is the exact opposite. High omega 6 low omega 3 diets cause inflammation.. if you cause mild inflammation regularly for years what happens? Also grass fed meats are leaner significantly. 

[alxcii]

No contest, moderate coffee drinking reduces all cause mortality while modern studies on alcohol consumption basically show a linear correlation with mortality.

 

Alcohol is overrated. Short alcohol, long cannabis.

[Charlie]

I have seen a lot of people dying, because of Alcohol, none of Coffee.

 

Munger: Beware of Liquor, Leverage and Ladies.