rkbabang Posted March 16, 2021 Author Posted March 16, 2021 The blockchain has one use it’s apparently perfect for, scams. This will be a constant drag on the market. https://www.businessinsider.com/man-lost-560000-worth-of-bitcoin-elon-musk-scam-bbc-2021-3 A man in Germany says he lost bitcoins worth $560,000 by falling for a scammer posing as Elon Musk, the BBC reported. The man from Cologne — whom the BBC gave a pseudonym — described giving away his fortune in the mistaken belief that Musk would double his money. The BBC said his loss was the largest single amount recorded by a Dutch group that tracks so-called giveaway scams. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man You can't fix stupid. Plenty of people lost cash money to Nigerian princes over email. Doesn't mean cash is bad. A fool and his money are soon parted. That is just a universal law of human nature that is constant regardless of what you use as money. That's why next time that Elon Musk contacts me for my bitcoin I'm going to tell him to go to hell!
JRM Posted March 16, 2021 Posted March 16, 2021 A fool and his money were lucky to have met in the first place. Does Elon still need a loan?
ValueArb Posted March 16, 2021 Posted March 16, 2021 I'd feel pretty stupid if I was the guy in that article you all were making fun of. But I'm not. I swear.
Spekulatius Posted March 16, 2021 Posted March 16, 2021 Nothing prevents the 2nd verifier from being a 'bot', which it will be. If the reported data is the same as it was over the last two recordings, it doesn't verify the block, and it doesn't chain. Could be the sensor is buried in snow/ice - don't care, it's sending bad data, and it doesn't chain. No humans involved, no manipulation of data (scrubbing), therefore trusted. Practically, the globes sensors would be queried once/twice a day at most. The read just capturing new records since the last read, and as at a set time (GMT) - there is no waiting for a new block to chain - it either has or it hasn't. The sensor itself could be in space, sea, or land, and just pinging once/twice a day. And only periodically, depending on the local condition. It's just a different approach, 'not invented here'. Preferred for a great many global applications, not so much for others. SD To put in sanity checks like this, you don’t need a blockchain at all.
SharperDingaan Posted March 17, 2021 Posted March 17, 2021 Mechanically, most applications don't need a blockchain. The Wust/Gervais paper is a good reference for determining when it is required. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328820555_Do_you_Need_a_Blockchain Thing is - mechanical efficiency is NOT the key metric, public acceptance is. The blockchain is trusted because the data is immutable ... whereas in a DB, not so much. Hence a strong preference for critical, and source information, on a blockchain. Often the best application is a PRIVATE blockchain (only some can chain to it), allowing public access. Best example is your medical record - from birth through to death. Only the hospitals, etc., can chain to it, but you the owner/patient control who can see it. Every time you go to a clinic/pharmacist they can see your entire record, be confident that it was entered by a reliable source, and that nothing has been altered. Sure, it could be done with a DB as well .... but there's little/no user confidence in the data itself, unless the source is reputable. Public acceptance trumps efficiency. SD
LC Posted March 25, 2021 Posted March 25, 2021 Mechanically, most applications don't need a blockchain. The Wust/Gervais paper is a good reference for determining when it is required. https://www.researchgate.net/publication/328820555_Do_you_Need_a_Blockchain Thing is - mechanical efficiency is NOT the key metric, public acceptance is. The blockchain is trusted because the data is immutable ... whereas in a DB, not so much. Hence a strong preference for critical, and source information, on a blockchain. Often the best application is a PRIVATE blockchain (only some can chain to it), allowing public access. Best example is your medical record - from birth through to death. Only the hospitals, etc., can chain to it, but you the owner/patient control who can see it. Every time you go to a clinic/pharmacist they can see your entire record, and be confident that it was entered by a reliable source, and that nothing has been altered. Sure, it could be done with a DB as well .... but there's little/no user confidence in the data itself, unless the source is reputable. Public acceptance trumps efficiency. SD Consumer credit is similar in structure
ValueArb Posted March 25, 2021 Posted March 25, 2021 Fidelity to launch a BTC ETF. Who's next? And as if that was signaling a top, BTC crashes.
Gregmal Posted March 25, 2021 Posted March 25, 2021 Fidelity to launch a BTC ETF. Who's next? And as if that was signaling a top, BTC crashes. ~20% from the ATH, nearly 100% YTD, and more than 10x since lows 52 weeks ago....interesting definition of a crash.
TwoCitiesCapital Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 Fidelity to launch a BTC ETF. Who's next? And as if that was signaling a top, BTC crashes. Eh, for an asset that regularly moves by 20-30%, this hardly qualifies as a crash. Especially considering it's still up 500% over the last 6 months or so. Healthy corrections happen. There were multiple 20-30% pullbacks in 2017 and two 50+% pullbacks on the way to 20x returns. We haven't even seen the latter yet, let alone a "crash". That'll be the 80-90% drawdown that comes AFTER the bull run.
nkp007 Posted March 26, 2021 Posted March 26, 2021 NFTs are definitely quite bubbly (wrong side of Gartner hype cycle). With that said, plenty of extremely interesting opportunities across crypto right now - we've discussed BTC's thesis at length but the DeFi space is fascinating and worth checking out -- if for nothing more than intellectual curiosity. People on this board mocking how dumb crypto is (essentially implying superior IQ and analytical abilities) without spending any meaningful time understanding the space strongly resembles the value-above-all crowd mocking anyone paying >15x FCF regardless of quality just a few years ago. Most of the space is extremely nascent and 95% of projects will fail (similar to what happened in '90s) but if you're not absolutely fascinated by a meritocracy based pseudonymous developer ecosystem attempting to rebuild the financial system using first principles, you're just being stubborn. Brilliant comment. Will go down in history as one of the best on this site.
fareastwarriors Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 Visa moves to allow payment settlements using cryptocurrency[url=https://www.reuters.com/article/crypto-currency-visa/exclusive-visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency-idUSL4N2LR2U2]https://www.reuters.com/article/crypto-currency-visa/exclusive-visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency-idUSL4N2LR2U2[/url]
TwoCitiesCapital Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 Visa moves to allow payment settlements using cryptocurrency[url=https://www.reuters.com/article/crypto-currency-visa/exclusive-visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency-idUSL4N2LR2U2]https://www.reuters.com/article/crypto-currency-visa/exclusive-visa-moves-to-allow-payment-settlements-using-cryptocurrency-idUSL4N2LR2U2[/url>In the long run, this is very positive. As someone who hates the current high gas fees on the ethereum network while waiting for rollups and Eth 2.0 to work their magic, I'm concerned this will make it worse :/ Krapdivad Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 What do people think of taking on debt, such as a home equity loan to put into equities or cryptocurrencies now?If we think that due to money printing, inflation and interest rates will rise, it may be advantageous to take on cheap debt, and to put it in something that will resist the depreciation of cash. Gregmal Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 I think taking money out of your primary home for anything other than a sure thing is probably a bad idea. Crypto is far from a sure thing and even if it were there's characteristics of it that are far from predictable. With equities it would of course depend on what you're looking at. Generally speaking though, I think your idea makes sense for the semi adventurous person with a reasonable risk tolerance. fareastwarriors Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 What do people think of taking on debt, such as a home equity loan to put into equities or cryptocurrencies now?If we think that due to money printing, inflation and interest rates will rise, it may be advantageous to take on cheap debt, and to put it in something that will resist the depreciation of cash.Debt is 2 way street. If your financial house is in order, I'm for taking Some low rate debt to invest in higher returning assets. I employ margin in my taxable investment account and tap my HELOC all the time for Real estate and stocks. I'm not so sure about crypto though. I have little chance of being margin called and I have other assets on hand (with varying levels of liquidity) to cover unexpected issues. Different for everyone. TwoCitiesCapital Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 What do people think of taking on debt, such as a home equity loan to put into equities or cryptocurrencies now?If we think that due to money printing, inflation and interest rates will rise, it may be advantageous to take on cheap debt, and to put it in something that will resist the depreciation of cash.Betting on the rising prices would be very speculative and risky - particularly for an asset class that has a history of busting 80-90% after major booms (what we're seeing now). Also, we have NO evidence that Bitcoin would perform well as an inflation hedge. We have a theory based solely on its scarcity, but that doesn't mean it would play out in reality or that there wouldn't be other/better inflation hedges. I myself think BTC's rise in value is less to do with it being a store of value/inflation hedge and more to do with simply reflecting the growing value of the network of payments/participants. All of that being said, I myself have taken on a small loan @ ~3-4% (non-compounded) and am arbitraging that against stable coins earning 8-10% (compounded continuously) in DeFi. There are risks like your counterparty failing (if you're using BlockFi) or of your smart contract being hacked (if you're using Aave, or Curve, or someother app), but it could be a worthwhile arbitrage to make to funnel more capital into a growing sector as long as it won't kill you to lose it all in the event something happens. Would definitely NOT be doing this with anything close to an amount approximating my mortgage. 2 weeks later... fareastwarriors Posted April 7, 2021 Posted April 7, 2021 California billionaire’s real estate firm to begin allowing tenants to pay rent in bitcoin https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/07/rick-carusos-company-to-begin-accepting-rent-payments-in-bitcoin.html tede02 Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 I'm surprised there was no discussion about the lengthy article in WSJ about China's rollout of digital currency: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-creates-its-own-digital-currency-a-first-for-major-economy-11617634118?mod=trending_now_news_pos1 It was a very interesting read. Brings up a number of points of how crypto threatens the control a country has over its monetary system and sovereignty more generally. Also discusses how much leverage the US presently has over foreign governments, businesses and individuals by being able to freeze them out of the global financial system. This leverage could be totally undermined obviously if transactions start settling in other currencies, soverign or defi crypto. The article says 60 countries globally are evaluating the prospects for issuing digital currencies. My takeaway was there is growing pressure for central banks to move forward with digital offerings because of the issues mentioned above. There's also obviously growing competition between the US and China in all kinds of respects, including dominance over the global financial system. The article generates the narrative that western nations are feeling more urgency to get into the game. Lets just say within 10 years, every major nation has a digital currency. What does this mean for crypto and defi? Don't soverign digital currencies present a major threat to non-soverign cryptocurrencies? Are there reasons why soverign and non-soverign would co-exist? TwoCitiesCapital Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 4 hours ago, tede02 said: I'm surprised there was no discussion about the lengthy article in WSJ about China's rollout of digital currency: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-creates-its-own-digital-currency-a-first-for-major-economy-11617634118?mod=trending_now_news_pos1 It was a very interesting read. Brings up a number of points of how crypto threatens the control a country has over its monetary system and sovereignty more generally. Also discusses how much leverage the US presently has over foreign governments, businesses and individuals by being able to freeze them out of the global financial system. This leverage could be totally undermined obviously if transactions start settling in other currencies, soverign or defi crypto. The article says 60 countries globally are evaluating the prospects for issuing digital currencies. My takeaway was there is growing pressure for central banks to move forward with digital offerings because of the issues mentioned above. There's also obviously growing competition between the US and China in all kinds of respects, including dominance over the global financial system. The article generates the narrative that western nations are feeling more urgency to get into the game. Lets just say within 10 years, every major nation has a digital currency. What does this mean for crypto and defi? Don't soverign digital currencies present a major threat to non-soverign cryptocurrencies? Are there reasons why soverign and non-soverign would co-exist? I don't think sovereign cryptos threaten crypto anymore than credit cards threaten crypto. Part of the benefit of crypto is precisely that it is decentralized - a currency that can truly be accepted anywhere in any country by any business. Also, for those who view it as digital gold, its guaranteed scarcity will be hard to replicate by profligate governments who want to print more digital currencies. A digital currency will erode SOME of the advantages cryptos have over the current financial system (like instantaneous settlement), but ultimately there is enough of an ecosystem, network, and development around these currencies that I imagine they'll continue to have advantages of sovereign currencies for years to come. The digital USD hasn't even launched yet, let alone redeveloping the financial system around it. We're already getting there on ethereum and they just need to crack scalability and lowering fees (which is a BIG challenge, but i'm optimistic). TL;DR - a digital dollar probably won't be much different for day-to-day users that already use Apple wallet/PayPal/credit cards for every purchase other than they'll see their money and payment settlement move much more quickly. netnet Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) A few questions on the asset class: What are the best posts on cobf on crypto? (I know, I know, I will read this whole thread) What are the best posts on the web? Other than Ethereum and Bit, what else should one invest in, (pre IPO Coinbase would have been possible a few months ago.) Dogecoin It seems to me that we are in the late stages of this cycle so of a total allocation to crypto, invest 20%- 40% now and wait for the pullback. Edited April 9, 2021 by netnet SharperDingaan Posted April 13, 2021 Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) Digital currency. The other name for it is CBDC, for a lot of crypto token it is a game-changer. In many apps, a fiat currency is exchanged for a token that pays for activities within the app - but outside of the app, that token has little/no value. The developer in turn, supposedly used the fiat to develop the app promised in the whitepaper As CBDC is a token, users no longer need buy the app's token to pay for activities, they just pay with CBDC instead. The developer can no longer use seigniorage to pay for development, and the activities move to value-add commodity pricing. The party ends, and most app developers collapse. Winnowing the wheat from the chaff is not a bad thing. CBDC is country level digital currency, that most all counties will eventually go to. Reserve Bank Digital Currency (RBDC) is trade level digital currency, and most likely a decade long work-in-process. Eventually it will become the globes reserve currency, but after a number of iterations along the way. SD . Edited April 13, 2021 by SharperDingaan tede02 Posted April 14, 2021 Posted April 14, 2021 Listened to the Coinbase CEO on CNBC this morning. He had some interesting things to say. For example, his view is most countries will roll out their own digital currencies over time and crypto will be complimentary to them. He also talked about his expectation that governments will regulate as they normally do to maintain control of their respective monetary systems. I'm curious what crypto advocates see for the future? Do people envision going into an ice cream shop or car dealership and having the option to pay in digital dollar, digital yuan, digital euro, bitcoin, ether, etc.? Do people see other means of digital payments as likely (such as paying for things in shares of common stock)? Eliminating intermediaries and instant settlement seem like very important things. But I struggle to see all of these different units being used/accepted for payments ubiquitously. It seems like it would be very complicated administratively and there would be lots of "currency" risk. Alternatively I keep contemplating as to whether crypto currencies end up as more of a trading unit like precious metals and never really take hold as a system of payment. Thanks for any comments. This is an intriguing topic. SharperDingaan Posted April 14, 2021 Posted April 14, 2021 Whether digital, or paper, the country fiat will be backed by the CB and freely exchangeable on a 1:1 basis. You will just have 2 accounts - the account at your bank, and the wallet at the CB. Most will pay using their wallet, simply because it is faster, cheaper, and the amounts are guaranteed. Existing payment plumbing rapidly displaced over time. When a vendor can accept CBDC as legal tender, vs sh1te coin, the sh1te coin becomes worthless. Of course, if the market believes the coin has value (BTC, ETH, etc.), the outcome might be different - but what the participants think is irrelevant. Comes back to the great winnowing, and ability to short. We'll all learn something new SD Prev 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 Next Page 56 of 161 Create an account or sign in to comment You need to be a member in order to leave a comment Create an account Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy! Register a new account Sign in Already have an account? Sign in here. Sign In Now Share https://thecobf.com/forum/topic/20408-cryptocurrencies/ More sharing options... Followers 13
Krapdivad Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 What do people think of taking on debt, such as a home equity loan to put into equities or cryptocurrencies now?If we think that due to money printing, inflation and interest rates will rise, it may be advantageous to take on cheap debt, and to put it in something that will resist the depreciation of cash.
Gregmal Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 I think taking money out of your primary home for anything other than a sure thing is probably a bad idea. Crypto is far from a sure thing and even if it were there's characteristics of it that are far from predictable. With equities it would of course depend on what you're looking at. Generally speaking though, I think your idea makes sense for the semi adventurous person with a reasonable risk tolerance.
fareastwarriors Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 What do people think of taking on debt, such as a home equity loan to put into equities or cryptocurrencies now?If we think that due to money printing, inflation and interest rates will rise, it may be advantageous to take on cheap debt, and to put it in something that will resist the depreciation of cash.Debt is 2 way street. If your financial house is in order, I'm for taking Some low rate debt to invest in higher returning assets. I employ margin in my taxable investment account and tap my HELOC all the time for Real estate and stocks. I'm not so sure about crypto though. I have little chance of being margin called and I have other assets on hand (with varying levels of liquidity) to cover unexpected issues. Different for everyone.
TwoCitiesCapital Posted March 29, 2021 Posted March 29, 2021 What do people think of taking on debt, such as a home equity loan to put into equities or cryptocurrencies now?If we think that due to money printing, inflation and interest rates will rise, it may be advantageous to take on cheap debt, and to put it in something that will resist the depreciation of cash.Betting on the rising prices would be very speculative and risky - particularly for an asset class that has a history of busting 80-90% after major booms (what we're seeing now). Also, we have NO evidence that Bitcoin would perform well as an inflation hedge. We have a theory based solely on its scarcity, but that doesn't mean it would play out in reality or that there wouldn't be other/better inflation hedges. I myself think BTC's rise in value is less to do with it being a store of value/inflation hedge and more to do with simply reflecting the growing value of the network of payments/participants. All of that being said, I myself have taken on a small loan @ ~3-4% (non-compounded) and am arbitraging that against stable coins earning 8-10% (compounded continuously) in DeFi. There are risks like your counterparty failing (if you're using BlockFi) or of your smart contract being hacked (if you're using Aave, or Curve, or someother app), but it could be a worthwhile arbitrage to make to funnel more capital into a growing sector as long as it won't kill you to lose it all in the event something happens. Would definitely NOT be doing this with anything close to an amount approximating my mortgage.
fareastwarriors Posted April 7, 2021 Posted April 7, 2021 California billionaire’s real estate firm to begin allowing tenants to pay rent in bitcoin https://www.cnbc.com/2021/04/07/rick-carusos-company-to-begin-accepting-rent-payments-in-bitcoin.html
tede02 Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 I'm surprised there was no discussion about the lengthy article in WSJ about China's rollout of digital currency: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-creates-its-own-digital-currency-a-first-for-major-economy-11617634118?mod=trending_now_news_pos1 It was a very interesting read. Brings up a number of points of how crypto threatens the control a country has over its monetary system and sovereignty more generally. Also discusses how much leverage the US presently has over foreign governments, businesses and individuals by being able to freeze them out of the global financial system. This leverage could be totally undermined obviously if transactions start settling in other currencies, soverign or defi crypto. The article says 60 countries globally are evaluating the prospects for issuing digital currencies. My takeaway was there is growing pressure for central banks to move forward with digital offerings because of the issues mentioned above. There's also obviously growing competition between the US and China in all kinds of respects, including dominance over the global financial system. The article generates the narrative that western nations are feeling more urgency to get into the game. Lets just say within 10 years, every major nation has a digital currency. What does this mean for crypto and defi? Don't soverign digital currencies present a major threat to non-soverign cryptocurrencies? Are there reasons why soverign and non-soverign would co-exist?
TwoCitiesCapital Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 4 hours ago, tede02 said: I'm surprised there was no discussion about the lengthy article in WSJ about China's rollout of digital currency: https://www.wsj.com/articles/china-creates-its-own-digital-currency-a-first-for-major-economy-11617634118?mod=trending_now_news_pos1 It was a very interesting read. Brings up a number of points of how crypto threatens the control a country has over its monetary system and sovereignty more generally. Also discusses how much leverage the US presently has over foreign governments, businesses and individuals by being able to freeze them out of the global financial system. This leverage could be totally undermined obviously if transactions start settling in other currencies, soverign or defi crypto. The article says 60 countries globally are evaluating the prospects for issuing digital currencies. My takeaway was there is growing pressure for central banks to move forward with digital offerings because of the issues mentioned above. There's also obviously growing competition between the US and China in all kinds of respects, including dominance over the global financial system. The article generates the narrative that western nations are feeling more urgency to get into the game. Lets just say within 10 years, every major nation has a digital currency. What does this mean for crypto and defi? Don't soverign digital currencies present a major threat to non-soverign cryptocurrencies? Are there reasons why soverign and non-soverign would co-exist? I don't think sovereign cryptos threaten crypto anymore than credit cards threaten crypto. Part of the benefit of crypto is precisely that it is decentralized - a currency that can truly be accepted anywhere in any country by any business. Also, for those who view it as digital gold, its guaranteed scarcity will be hard to replicate by profligate governments who want to print more digital currencies. A digital currency will erode SOME of the advantages cryptos have over the current financial system (like instantaneous settlement), but ultimately there is enough of an ecosystem, network, and development around these currencies that I imagine they'll continue to have advantages of sovereign currencies for years to come. The digital USD hasn't even launched yet, let alone redeveloping the financial system around it. We're already getting there on ethereum and they just need to crack scalability and lowering fees (which is a BIG challenge, but i'm optimistic). TL;DR - a digital dollar probably won't be much different for day-to-day users that already use Apple wallet/PayPal/credit cards for every purchase other than they'll see their money and payment settlement move much more quickly.
netnet Posted April 8, 2021 Posted April 8, 2021 (edited) A few questions on the asset class: What are the best posts on cobf on crypto? (I know, I know, I will read this whole thread) What are the best posts on the web? Other than Ethereum and Bit, what else should one invest in, (pre IPO Coinbase would have been possible a few months ago.) Dogecoin It seems to me that we are in the late stages of this cycle so of a total allocation to crypto, invest 20%- 40% now and wait for the pullback. Edited April 9, 2021 by netnet
SharperDingaan Posted April 13, 2021 Posted April 13, 2021 (edited) Digital currency. The other name for it is CBDC, for a lot of crypto token it is a game-changer. In many apps, a fiat currency is exchanged for a token that pays for activities within the app - but outside of the app, that token has little/no value. The developer in turn, supposedly used the fiat to develop the app promised in the whitepaper As CBDC is a token, users no longer need buy the app's token to pay for activities, they just pay with CBDC instead. The developer can no longer use seigniorage to pay for development, and the activities move to value-add commodity pricing. The party ends, and most app developers collapse. Winnowing the wheat from the chaff is not a bad thing. CBDC is country level digital currency, that most all counties will eventually go to. Reserve Bank Digital Currency (RBDC) is trade level digital currency, and most likely a decade long work-in-process. Eventually it will become the globes reserve currency, but after a number of iterations along the way. SD . Edited April 13, 2021 by SharperDingaan
tede02 Posted April 14, 2021 Posted April 14, 2021 Listened to the Coinbase CEO on CNBC this morning. He had some interesting things to say. For example, his view is most countries will roll out their own digital currencies over time and crypto will be complimentary to them. He also talked about his expectation that governments will regulate as they normally do to maintain control of their respective monetary systems. I'm curious what crypto advocates see for the future? Do people envision going into an ice cream shop or car dealership and having the option to pay in digital dollar, digital yuan, digital euro, bitcoin, ether, etc.? Do people see other means of digital payments as likely (such as paying for things in shares of common stock)? Eliminating intermediaries and instant settlement seem like very important things. But I struggle to see all of these different units being used/accepted for payments ubiquitously. It seems like it would be very complicated administratively and there would be lots of "currency" risk. Alternatively I keep contemplating as to whether crypto currencies end up as more of a trading unit like precious metals and never really take hold as a system of payment. Thanks for any comments. This is an intriguing topic.
SharperDingaan Posted April 14, 2021 Posted April 14, 2021 Whether digital, or paper, the country fiat will be backed by the CB and freely exchangeable on a 1:1 basis. You will just have 2 accounts - the account at your bank, and the wallet at the CB. Most will pay using their wallet, simply because it is faster, cheaper, and the amounts are guaranteed. Existing payment plumbing rapidly displaced over time. When a vendor can accept CBDC as legal tender, vs sh1te coin, the sh1te coin becomes worthless. Of course, if the market believes the coin has value (BTC, ETH, etc.), the outcome might be different - but what the participants think is irrelevant. Comes back to the great winnowing, and ability to short. We'll all learn something new SD
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