How much does it take to be ‘rich’ now?

[thepupil]

yea the decision is deeply personal and extends well beyond the math. in my circle, almost all the wives work (90%+) and if I had to wager the math probably only makes sense for 25-30% of them if considering it on a near term year to year basis. The math on a long term basis gets more complex. it's not really about the money today so much as it is about career momentum/fulfillment/not wanting to stay home/etc. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by thepupil

[Castanza]

2 hours ago, Saluki said:

It's all mental/emotional.  In previous eras, being poor meant that you didn't know if you were going to eat that day. Now it means that you have an older iPhone.  Beyond your basic survival needs, all money is just a story that we tell ourselves. The poor, middle class, and rich, all eat the same kind of food, drive on the same roads, get treated with the same medicine and wear similar clothes.  In the 1500s, a peasant had one or two set of clothes, and you could tell a lord from a peasant by the way they were dressed.  Today, there is some psychological difference in an expensive suit vs a cheap suit, but if I showed you a picture of a rich kid starting his internship at Goldman or a poor kid wearing his interview suit, I don't think you could tell who was rich and who isn't. 

 

So to some extent whether you are rich just means whether you can afford your desires, which are related to the story you tell yourself about them and about money. If you like expensive cars and champagne at the club, and you can afford it, then you are rich and if you want them but you can't,  then you aren't rich. But if you don't have those desires, you are rich if you can afford the ones you want with no problem.  I have one house, one car, one lady and one dog.  I like to travel and read books.  I am rich because I can afford it. If wanted 3 houses and 3 cars and 3 ladies and 3 dogs, and a ferrari, then I am not rich.  I'll stay with the way I am.  I like being rich  

 

Yeah it's all subjective. There was a quote I read somewhere. Paraphrased it was something like....

 

"The rich of the Wester societies live lives described of the Gods in ancient times." 

 

Puts things in perspective for sure. 

[Blugolds]

Generations ago, it was a given that the wife would be a "homemaker" and stay home with the kids. Now, in my generation, women staying home is frowned upon, they look at it as insulting and has a negative vibe, "just a stay at home mom". 

 

When I was a kid, my mom worked...a lot. My best friend's mom was a realtor, but was really a stay at home mom. Vacation days from school, she took us to the science museum, came along on class field trips, forgot your book at home? No problem she would run it to school, weird sporting events, she was the driver, spend the night as his house? In the morning its homemade pancakes and eggs for breakfast!  sooo many perks and I thought it was awesome and was a little jealous. 

 

If you went on a date today and told the girl you someday want a wife that stays home and raises kids, there is a better than 50% chance she would get up and walk out. 

 

Somewhere the culture (feminism maybe, dunno) that changed and portrays this as a negative and I've always viewed it as a positive if its financially feasible. 

 

Thats the other part of it, even if the wife (or husband for that matter) would be amenable to staying home, most people either need or want the extra income, even if after childcare, the net take home is insignificant. Also as mentioned the career progression etc. I have an aunt that was a huge marketing pro, some well known ads etc. Left the workforce to raise the kids, home schooled them, she is very artistic and looking at her previous work, was very impressive. She rose very fast on the ladder when she was in the workforce. The problem is, she has been out of the workforce for maybe 2 decades. Now she would like to get back in. Presents problems. 

 

Shes out of touch with the current "trends". Some of the work she has done for her portfolio is ridiculously dated and not "cool". Frankly...its lame. 

 

This wouldnt be a problem if, at this age she was at the exec level, she would have younger motivated grads to manage etc. But she is now starting at the bottom, competing against these kids and she's getting smoked...unless some firm looking to hire specifically caters to AARP customers. Shes just be out of the game too long. So Im afraid her career was fast and short, resulting in a couple of framed ads/posters that were used nationally, hanging in the downstairs family room of their home. 

 

Not saying her course of action was wrong, she ended up being the leader of the area home school association or group or whatever its called, both kids are at big name schools working on PhD's in STEM fields, she did a great job. Maybe if she had worked in a different field it wouldnt be as hard, but any industry after being gone for even a single decade, soo much changes, technology, best practices etc. For sure though, advertising/marketing, if you havent been in the game and stayed relevant, to go from being a step away from partner, to the bottom with the recent college grads and off trend, you have no chance, she mise well go work at a coffee shop. 

[Castanza]

38 minutes ago, rkbabang said:

 

 

My wife stayed home with our kids.  This costs us a lot in lost income, but from what I'm reading here about childcare costs, maybe not as much as I assumed.   I know we were in the minority.  I'm not sure why this isn't done more often as it isn't just about the money, there are a lot of non-monetary benefits to making this choice.  

 

 

Agreed, society places too much emphasis on careers and money making regarding happiness and self worth imo. Nothing against a career though, but there are a lot of benefits about raising your own kids as well. Although plenty of people make it work with two working parents. You could argue the self worth benefit a career gives you. Different strokes for different folks.My wife will be cutting back her hours when our first is born. 1 shift a week with the option to add days at her leisure. Probably scale back up once they are in school and we get things ironed out.

 

Childcare is crazy expensive. @thepupil 60K sounds nuts! Guessing that's just the D.C. market.  Around here a "good" daycare is like 25-30k year. Not sure about full time Nanny service. But I sure as hell wouldn't want someone "cheap" watching my kids either so maybe that makes the 60k more reasonable. Have heard plenty of horror stories. 

[LC]

I grew up a few blocks from my paternal grandparents on the east, and maternal grandparents on the west. Both my parents worked, and having grandparents watch the kids was the "norm".

 

Now they were poor, off-the-boat adult immigrants...without a lifetime of savings to go travel the world, have a vacation home in Florida, etc., which perhaps nowadays grandparents are doing. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by LC

[Gregmal]

2 hours ago, Castanza said:

 

Agreed, society places too much emphasis on careers and money making regarding happiness and self worth imo. Nothing against a career though, but there are a lot of benefits about raising your own kids as well. Although plenty of people make it work with two working parents. You could argue the self worth benefit a career gives you. Different strokes for different folks.My wife will be cutting back her hours when our first is born. 1 shift a week with the option to add days at her leisure. Probably scale back up once they are in school and we get things ironed out.

 

Childcare is crazy expensive. @thepupil 60K sounds nuts! Guessing that's just the D.C. market.  Around here a "good" daycare is like 25-30k year. Not sure about full time Nanny service. But I sure as hell wouldn't want someone "cheap" watching my kids either so maybe that makes the 60k more reasonable. Have heard plenty of horror stories. 

Yea I know a bunch of people where both work and both make six figures. It blows my mind. Why? More money lol? People have been trained to be defined by their money and it’s unhealthy.
 

We solved the issue rather easily. My wife had an offer from a big 4 accounting firm. We just didn’t wanna go that route or be burdened by that sort of lifestyle. Family was always the main priority. So she found a job that had great benefits and super flexible hours/work from home options(before work from home was mainstream) for about 60% the salary. I had a ton of flexibility with my work as well. No nanny. But occasionally the mother in law lending a hand. 
 

My brother and his wife? He’s an MD and she’s a big 4 partner. Both do 80 hours a week and in their mid 30s claim they’re not ready for kids…..sad. Why? MOAR MONEY!
 

Everyone has been conditioned that you must keep up with the Joneses. But you don’t. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Gregmal

[SharperDingaan]

2 hours ago, Castanza said:

 

Agreed, society places too much emphasis on careers and money making regarding happiness and self worth imo. Nothing against a career though, but there are a lot of benefits about raising your own kids as well. Although plenty of people make it work with two working parents. You could argue the self worth benefit a career gives you. Different strokes for different folks.My wife will be cutting back her hours when our first is born. 1 shift a week with the option to add days at her leisure. Probably scale back up once they are in school and we get things ironed out.

 

Childcare is crazy expensive. @thepupil 60K sounds nuts! Guessing that's just the D.C. market.  Around here a "good" daycare is like 25-30k year. Not sure about full time Nanny service. But I sure as hell wouldn't want someone "cheap" watching my kids either so maybe that makes the 60k more reasonable. Have heard plenty of horror stories. 

 

Add the cost of working (taxes, clothes, transport, etc.) to the cost of paid childcare per child, and most mothers would be far better off staying at home; especially if the plan is for more than one kid within 2-3 years. However, mention this to your spouse, and you are very quickly a dead man! It takes a lot of courage to buck the crowd, and it is especially hard for a 'super-women'.

 

Social conditioning exists for a reason, and the powers-that-be get highly annoyed when too many people take the red pill. A few 'bolshies' is healthy; a swarm of them just screws up your day!

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bolshie

 

SD

 

 

 

[Castanza]

1 hour ago, Gregmal said:

Yea I know a bunch of people where both work and both make six figures. It blows my mind. Why? More money lol? People have been trained to be defined by their money and it’s unhealthy.
 

We solved the issue rather easily. My wife had an offer from a big 4 accounting firm. We just didn’t wanna go that route or be burdened by that sort of lifestyle. Family was always the main priority. So she found a job that had great benefits and super flexible hours/work from home options(before work from home was mainstream) for about 60% the salary. I had a ton of flexibility with my work as well. No nanny. But occasionally the mother in law lending a hand. 
 

My brother and his wife? He’s an MD and she’s a big 4 partner. Both do 80 hours a week and in their mid 30s claim they’re not ready for kids…..sad. Why? MOAR MONEY!
 

Everyone has been conditioned that you must keep up with the Joneses. But you don’t. 

Yup, I’ve never understood the couples who want to work 80 hours a week hire a full time babysitter all so they can have a 25% better house and luxury cars. 
 

I’ll be damned if I work 80 hours a week for 40% more salary so I can have a Porsche in the garage that I drive to work and back 6 days a week. 
 

Much rather make a little less, work less have a more manageable house that’s more easily updated and the flexibility to do things if I chose. Clocking out at 4:30, not getting called on weekends for work and working remote 97% of the time is priceless imo. I can run errands during lunch, go to the gym, cut the grass, water the garden, meet my pops or a friend for lunch etc. nice knowing I’ll never miss my kids activities should I keep this gif for some time. 
 

Again, different strokes for different folks. And I think it’s area dependent too. Obviously a balance that has to be obtained which is easier said than done for most. 

[Castanza]

11 minutes ago, SharperDingaan said:

 

Add the cost of working (taxes, clothes, transport, etc.) to the cost of paid childcare per child, and most mothers would be far better off staying at home; especially if the plan is for more than one kid within 2-3 years. However, mention this to your spouse, and you are very quickly a dead man! It takes a lot of courage to buck the crowd, and it is especially hard for a 'super-women'.

 

Social conditioning exists for a reason, and the powers-that-be get highly annoyed when too many people take the red pill. A few 'bolshies' is healthy; a swarm of them just screws up your day!

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red_pill_and_blue_pill

https://www.thefreedictionary.com/bolshie

 

SD

 

 

 

My wife is a NICU nurse and is getting worn out. She’s been at it for 8 years now working overtime shifts most of those years. Not to mention long commutes. As we worked our way back towards family it became clear that she wanted to step back from work and be a Mom. Luckily it didn’t take any persuasion from me. Honestly very fortunate with our situation. I know a lot of people simply can’t not work. But she plans to keep working some and maybe pursue her NP after this first year. So in the end I think it will all work out. We live basically debt free; which might be a handicap in the longterm retirement wise….But near term it’s certainly a plus. 

[crs223]

7 hours ago, Ross812 said:

The topic question is difficult to answer. Take travel for instance:

 

1. You drive because air travel + car rental is expensive (working/middle class)

2. You fly budget airlines (working/middle class)

3. You fly economy (middle class)

4. You upgrade your economy tickets with more expensive seats (middle class/wealthy)

5. Only fly business class (wealthy)

6. Only fly first class (wealthy)

7. Only fly private (rich)

 

that’s a fun list.  also fun: consider what that list looked like 100 years ago.  everybody is rich today!  comical at the airport how livid people get about their delayed flight….most powerful emperor not too long ago would have paid anything for a seat on that delayed flight!

[Sweet]

2 hours ago, Gregmal said:

Yea I know a bunch of people where both work and both make six figures. It blows my mind. Why? More money lol? People have been trained to be defined by their money and it’s unhealthy.
 

We solved the issue rather easily. My wife had an offer from a big 4 accounting firm. We just didn’t wanna go that route or be burdened by that sort of lifestyle. Family was always the main priority. So she found a job that had great benefits and super flexible hours/work from home options(before work from home was mainstream) for about 60% the salary. I had a ton of flexibility with my work as well. No nanny. But occasionally the mother in law lending a hand. 
 

My brother and his wife? He’s an MD and she’s a big 4 partner. Both do 80 hours a week and in their mid 30s claim they’re not ready for kids…..sad. Why? MOAR MONEY!
 

Everyone has been conditioned that you must keep up with the Joneses. But you don’t. 

They should have children before it’s too late unless they are an absolutely certain on no kids.  It’s a big regret of many older people who forwent children.  

We know one older couple in particular who worked hard and wanted to travel during their time off, so never had kids.  They say it was their biggest mistake.  They’ve been all over the world, have all the money they want, but no one to share it with and nobody to come round for dinner.  
 

Get in your bothers ear.

 

Edited June 6, 2023 by Sweet

[crs223]

I feel totally “blessed” but not rich.  i love my job.  ride my bike to work (10 miles each way), have no car (wife does), play basketball three times a week during the work day, and can buy everything i want (but i’m happy with an ancient iphone and a bike).  Bonus: company is employee owned and I’ve got 1% of it… i feel like i own the place.  double-bonus: i’m in Santa Barbara.

 

perhaps i’m just deluding myself, but I believe my job is the source of most of my day to day happiness.  keep the delusion going!

[thepupil]

I think a lot of you assume that people exclusively work for money. 

 

simply not the case. I'm 95% sure I won't have a w-2 at 50 and 70% sure it's gone at 45 and 50/50% at 40. I wouldn't be surprised if my wife worked until 70. 

 

lots of reasons people work besides money / consumption (help people, use degree/s, status, fulfillment, etc). next door neighbor's hubby is a surgeon. she's a teacher at a school in bad hood. very hard job. clearly not doing it for the cash. 

 

for me, it's a simple exchange of labor for capital. once enough capital is there, I'm not working for someone else. 

Edited June 6, 2023 by thepupil

[Parsad]

8 hours ago, backtothebeach said:

Yeah I bought something called Wagyu at an HEB supermarket a few weeks ago, it looked beautiful, but turned out terrible, was like 50% water.

Not $250 a pound of course, should have known.

 

Just eat slow cooked brisket and save yourself $200 a pound! 

 

I've had Waygu and it's a little too delicate and tender.  Good once in a while...and great slightly seared on sushi or as tartare.

 

I like the mouthfeel of a good New York strip done medium.  I think good steak needs a bit of chew...not velvety soft like Kobe beef or Waygu...that's a little too much marbling for me.    

 

Cheers!

[Parsad]

45 minutes ago, crs223 said:

I feel totally “blessed” but not rich.  i love my job.  ride my bike to work (10 miles each way), have no car (wife does), play basketball three times a week during the work day, and can buy everything i want (but i’m happy with an ancient iphone and a bike).  Bonus: company is employee owned and I’ve got 1% of it… i feel like i own the place.  double-bonus: i’m in Santa Barbara.

 

perhaps i’m just deluding myself, but I believe my job is the source of most of my day to day happiness.  keep the delusion going!

 

That's really as good as it gets if you also have good health!  Stay delusional!  Cheers!

[Jaygo]

On 6/5/2023 at 4:50 PM, Spooky said:

Great thread. As a recently minted millionaire it certainly doesn't feel like a million goes that far anymore. The average home where I'm from in the Greater Toronto Area is now $1,196,101 in Canadian funny money.

 

I also echo other people's sentiment that the money itself does not make me happy / improve my happiness.

 

Looks like I need to move to a lower cost place to live and use the money for something that will have a real impact on my life.

Yeah it doesn't feel rich that for sure. I'm in a similar boat and let just say I chuckled as opposed to popped champagne!

 

Plain and simple most of us are living in rat race type areas with lots of visually rich folks around making us feel like we still have work to do. I feel blessed and rich in certain areas and I feel like a popper when I turn onto my street or pick my kids up at pool parties lol.

[LC]

Don’t stop at bolshie, SD- go full on Trots!

[Jaygo]

8 hours ago, Saluki said:

So to some extent whether you are rich just means whether you can afford your desires, which are related to the story you tell yourself about them and about money. If you like expensive cars and champagne at the club, and you can afford it, then you are rich and if you want them but you can't,  then you aren't rich. But if you don't have those desires, you are rich if you can afford the ones you want with no problem.  I have one house, one car, one lady and one dog.  I like to travel and read books.  I am rich because I can afford it. If wanted 3 houses and 3 cars and 3 ladies and 3 dogs, and a ferrari, then I am not rich.  I'll stay with the way I am.  I like being rich  

Yep that just about nails personal wealth/desires. We live in a world of abundance and rich is what you make it. But we need to be honest with ourselves, flying private must be the tits! And I am not flying private rich by a long shot so therefor  I am not todays rich. 

[rkbabang]

2 hours ago, Jaygo said:

Yep that just about nails personal wealth/desires. We live in a world of abundance and rich is what you make it. But we need to be honest with ourselves, flying private must be the tits! And I am not flying private rich by a long shot so therefor  I am not todays rich. 

yeah. I don’t want a mega-mansion, a mega-yacht, or a super car.  The only thing the ultra-rich have that I’d love is the ability to fly private.  There is no difference in the airport experience between the cheap seats and first class. I don’t weigh 300lbs, I don’t need a bigger seat for 3x the cost. What I want is to avoid the whole commercial airport experience.

[james22]

On 6/5/2023 at 4:09 PM, rohitc99 said:

My takeaway from the thread - how expensive raising kids is. No wonder population growth is slowing and even dropping. I am sure my kids and their generation is already on the fence on having kids of their own and it is showing up in the stats already

 

From a pure economics standpoint, marry - dont have kids and you can retire 20 years early 

 

Can't buy relationships.

 

What makes for a happy life, a fulfilling life? A good life? According to the directors of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, the longest scientific study of happiness ever conducted, the surprising answer is: relationships.

 

The stronger our relationships, the more likely we are to live happy, satisfying, and overall healthier lives. In fact, the Harvard Study of Adult Development reveals that the strength of our connections with others can predict the health of both our bodies and our brains as we go through life.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Life-Lessons-Scientific-Happiness/dp/198216669X/

[Dinar]

57 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

Can't buy relationships.

 

What makes for a happy life, a fulfilling life? A good life? According to the directors of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, the longest scientific study of happiness ever conducted, the surprising answer is: relationships.

 

The stronger our relationships, the more likely we are to live happy, satisfying, and overall healthier lives. In fact, the Harvard Study of Adult Development reveals that the strength of our connections with others can predict the health of both our bodies and our brains as we go through life.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Good-Life-Lessons-Scientific-Happiness/dp/198216669X/

Actually, I disagree.  My relationship with my wife improved drastically after she got fired from her job.  She had way more time to devote to our three kids, took a lot of burdens of me, and our stress level went down drastically.  Of course we are going to have issues when Cobra coverage runs out....

[Spooky]

13 hours ago, thepupil said:

I think a lot of you assume that people exclusively work for money. 

 

simply not the case. I'm 95% sure I won't have a w-2 at 50 and 70% sure it's gone at 45 and 50/50% at 40. I wouldn't be surprised if my wife worked until 70. 

 

lots of reasons people work besides money / consumption (help people, use degree/s, status, fulfillment, etc). next door neighbor's hubby is a surgeon. she's a teacher at a school in bad hood. very hard job. clearly not doing it for the cash. 

 

for me, it's a simple exchange of labor for capital. once enough capital is there, I'm not working for someone else. 

 

Amen. I hope to never retire but do something I enjoy as long as my health permits to have some kind of purpose. Now I just need to figure out what that is... I need to start some kind of small business.

 

[Paarslaars]

9 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Actually, I disagree.  My relationship with my wife improved drastically after she got fired from her job.  She had way more time to devote to our three kids, took a lot of burdens of me, and our stress level went down drastically.  Of course we are going to have issues when Cobra coverage runs out....

And your answer means you 'bought' that better relationship by making more money?

Alternatively you could have learned to live with less. 

[Dinar]

3 minutes ago, Paarslaars said:

And your answer means you 'bought' that better relationship by making more money?

Alternatively you could have learned to live with less. 

No, it means that while our income declined, quality of life improved because she had 40 more hours per week  to devote to our family.   Given that I came as a penniless immigrant with my parents to the US from the former USSR, your suggestion is interesting...   My parents and I lived on less than USD 20K per year in NYC in the early 1990s.  I would suggest that before giving this advice to me or anyone else, you take your family (including kids) to NYC/Tokyo/London and try to live on USD 40K a year today.   I have lived a very frugal life - no air-conditioning for me during NYC summers, worked as a garbage man to pay for college.  I started to work at 16.    

[SharperDingaan]

13 hours ago, LC said:

Don’t stop at bolshie, SD- go full on Trots!

 

Sadly, I have to save these, and it works much much better on the Swiss (UBS/CS) 

Too much of this gets you assassinated.

 

SD