Russia-Ukrainian War

[james22]

16 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

That’s baller.

 

signed,

guy who went to an AGM in sweatpants and new balance shoes once

 

*loses all respect*

[E. Nashton]

27 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

That’s baller.

 

signed,

guy who went to an AGM in sweatpants and new balance shoes once

LOL - I read that as MGM and I still laughed. 

[Dinar]

1 hour ago, changegonnacome said:

 

I disagree but does it matter? - if Putin believes it to be so, then it is and the world needs to optimize for his/Russia's perception

 

I'm not sure what country your from - but do a thought experiment.......North Korea builds ties with your neighboring country.....those ties result in North Korea being allowed to construct a missles silo 15 miles from your countries borders and within 15 minute striking distance of your countries largest city.......North Korea & partner says they are not a threat to you and have no expansionary aspirations and your country would be crazy to think that would be possible............but tell me how would you and your family & your countries leadership FEEL about that???

I was born in the USSR and lived there for 13 years.  If you equate the US to North Korea, then I do not think we have anything to talk about.  If Putin believes that you are dead are you dead?  Your argument makes no sense.  

[no_free_lunch]

1 hour ago, Spekulatius said:

Regardless of war and dire circumstances, dress code violations are not tolerated:

 

 

Don't listen to Schiff. He's a perma bear and just a bag of hot air. I remember in the worst of the GFC him talking about how it's just getting started.  If you listened to him you are much poorer today. 

[cwericb]

1 hour ago, Spekulatius said:

 

Mr Schiff - not to be confused with Adam Schiff, is a former GOP Senate candidate in Connecticut and chief economist at Euro Pacific Capital. He also must be one of the most entitled, clueless "pundits" around. He should make a quick trip to the Ukraine just to check up on the situation.

[Blugolds]

43 minutes ago, cwericb said:

Mr Schiff - not to be confused with Adam Schiff, is a former GOP Senate candidate in Connecticut and chief economist at Euro Pacific Capital. He also must be one of the most entitled, clueless "pundits" around. He should make a quick trip to the Ukraine just to check up on the situation.

 

Schiff's tweet says nothing about Zelensky and everything about Schiff.

 

 

[Gregmal]

Schiff claimed to have called the housing market crash in 08 but by numerous client accounts, funds he managed lost as much as 88%. Must be something with the last name. 

[cubsfan]

2 hours ago, Dinar said:

You may be confusing reality and perception.  Perhaps President Putin thought that Ukraine joining NATO was an existential threat, but NATO neither is nor was ever an existential threat to Russia or the USSR before that.  After all, had the west not exported grain to the former USSR, the country would have starved.  

 

^^This is totally right. Putin just wants Ukraine, not because of NATO, but because it's becoming too close to Europe.

NATO is not out to overthrow Russia and Putin knows that. NATO is in place precisely to defend against 

Russian aggression. Putin thought taking over Ukraine would be a cakewalk and he fucked up.

[cubsfan]

3 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

Schiff claimed to have called the housing market crash in 08 but by numerous client accounts, funds he managed lost as much as 88%. Must be something with the last name. 

^^ Schiff - the boy who cried wolf way too many times. His tweet was disgusting. What a fucking elitist.

[LC]

5 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

^^ Schiff - the boy who cried wolf way too many times. His tweet was disgusting. What a fucking elitist.

 

It's all detailed in his best selling book "America's Coming Bankruptcy"

 

...

 

Published in 2014 

 

 

[cubsfan]

^^^ Oh shit - the title says it all!

[changegonnacome]

2 hours ago, Dinar said:

 If Putin believes that you are dead are you dead?  Your argument makes no sense.

 

I think you've missed my point completely - which is whether you believe something or not & that something has got to do with Russian security your opinion or thoughts are immaterial & pointless........Putin the all powerful ruler of Russia gets to decide what he considers to be an existential threat or not to his country, he thinks it, therefore it is so (re: Russian sovereignty/security). The USA/NATO/EU/the West doesn't get to decide but they sure do have to deal with consequences of his assessment as we're seeing now.

 

This was my point which you exaggerated to absurdity while using an analogy completely divorced from the context in which my point was made.

[changegonnacome]

 

1 hour ago, cubsfan said:

Putin just wants Ukraine, not because of NATO, but because it's becoming too close to Europe.

NATO is not out to overthrow Russia and Putin knows that. NATO is in place precisely to defend against 

Russian aggression. Putin thought taking over Ukraine would be a cakewalk and he fucked up.

 

This is a nonsensical sentence. Firstly he doesnt want Ukraine.....he's currently bombing the shit out of it precisely because he doesn't want it after. Secondly and I dont think you get the dynamic here............Europe is NATO, NATO is Europe......I'm sorry your showing a lack of understanding here of geography, political & military alliances .......get a map of the member states of the EU out and then a map of geographic Europe & then a map of NATO members.....they are for all intensive purposes the same thing when you look at it from a Russia threat assessment & national security basis. 

 

But hey who am I stop you from your tribal urges to say "the other team" fucked up despite ALL the factual evidence to the contrary....which is spread across mine and lots of other peoples posts on this thread

 

[cubsfan]

^^^ Hey Changegonnacome - I really don't need your geography or world history lessons. Thanks anyway.

Sorry I don't ascribe to your idiotic viewpoint. Maybe you should apply for a job at the Brookings Institute

since you are the expert here?

 

Last I checked - Russia invaded Ukraine. Simple enough. Russia already has the eastern provinces & Crimea

that are heavily Russian - and perhaps are very happy about being part of Russia. Seem simple too. 

And Putin feels threatened by the rest of Ukraine and it's Europe-leaning. So he decides to invade and fucks up.

That's pretty clear. Like Spec said - the Russian Blitzkrieg failed. So now he's turning the place to rubble if

he can't control it.

 

NATO is not an invader that threatens Russia. NATO membership would be there to protect Ukraine if invaded.

Looks like that's a too late.

 

All you have proved with your stupid comments is that Putin is a paranoid thug that a lot of countries need 

protection from - and we are somehow supposed to excuse/understand his actions - like it matters what 

his actual reason was.

 

Not really my problem you're so full of yourself.

[changegonnacome]

5 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

and we are somehow supposed to excuse/understand his actions - like it matters what his actual reason was.

 

You nailed tribalism here @cubsfan with this line - an almost case study expression of tribalistic thinking devoid of any sense of putting yourself in the other tribes shoes, admitting to some agency about how 'we got here' to this moment even for a second, to try and understand the other sides motivations/reasoning/actions/concerns...........in tribal thinking the other sides reasons don't matter, 'we' can only be right & 'they' can only be wrong. Which I think you've perfectly captured in the above post & for that reason (incl. your "full of yourself" jibe) not really interested in conversing further on this subject with you & we'll leave it there i think.

[cubsfan]

19 minutes ago, changegonnacome said:

 

You nailed tribalism here @cubsfan with this line - an almost case study expression of tribalistic thinking devoid of any sense of putting yourself in the other tribes shoes, admitting to some agency about how 'we got here' to this moment even for a second, to try and understand the other sides motivations/reasoning/actions/concerns...........in tribal thinking the other sides reasons don't matter, 'we' can only be right & 'they' can only be wrong. Which I think you've perfectly captured in the above post & for that reason (incl. your "full of yourself" jibe) not really interested in conversing further on this subject with you & we'll leave it there i think.

 

Changegonnacome - I mean, you're the authority here - why quit now??  Aren't you even gonna give us your

"Geography is Destiny" speech again?   How about another lecture from you on the new world order?

 

I can't wait. 

 

Those pompous asses at the Brookings Institute are waiting for another know-it-all like you. 

But, in the meantime,  we here at CoBF are really honored with you on point analysis....

Edited March 16, 2022 by cubsfan

[Spekulatius]

so I finally was able to watch Zelensky‘s speech, as well as Biden‘s and the commentary from some Republican senators.

 

I think Zelensky made a good appeal to the US such that the average American can relate to their plight. Biden’s response was a bit weak (more of the same) without really anything new.

 

The Republican Senators made a good point that’s we shouldn’t worry too much about what Putin might think about this or that. One of them also brought that in both the Korean and Vietnam theatre the Russians supplied plenty of aircraft  to the North Koreans and Vietnamese and no one was worried about escalation. So why now?

 

Too many self Imposed red lines that we let Putin know about is are a mistake. You should never made the opponent know about your intend and what you are going to do and what not. Let them guess or let them find out, hopefully when it’s too late. Even the Estonian prime minister later said the same. red Lines make no sense, especially since Putin doesn’t have any.

Personally, we shouldn’t even let it publicity know what we going to supply to Ukraine at all. Just supply whatever they need and can use. If that includes MIG-29 then get them delivered. Keeping the Russian from achieving  air superiority is essential.
 

One of my former colleagues wife is from Odessa and her parents are still there. Pretty crappy situation. This city looks like it’s going to be the next hotspot, because the Russian Navy is starting to close in and has already started some bombardments. This might be a time to give the Ukrainians some bigger rockets to get these ships out of the way. Sinking one of these vessels would be also something that would be hard to hide for Putin. We sure have means to get this job done and should give it to the Ukrainians, if they can put it to use.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Spekulatius

[Blugolds]

9 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

so I finally was able to watch Zelensky‘s speech, as well as Biden‘s and the commentary from some Republican senators.

 

I think Zelensky made a good appeal to the US such that the average American can relate to their plight. Biden’s response was a bit weak (more of the same) without really anything new.

 

The Republican Senators made a good point that’s we shouldn’t worry too much about what Putin might think about this or that. One of them also brought that in both the Korean and Vietnam theatre the Russians supplied plenty of aircraft  to the North Koreans and Vietnamese and no one was worried about escalation. So why now?

 

Too many self Imposed red lines that we let Putin know about is are a mistake. You should never made the opponent know about your intend and what you are going to do and what not. Let them guess or let them find out, hopefully when it’s too late. Even the Estonian prime minister later said the same. red Lines make no sense, especially since Putin doesn’t have any.

Personally, we shouldn’t even let it publicity know what we going to supply to Ukraine at all. Just supply whatever they need and can use. If that includes MIG-29 then get them delivered. Keeping the Russian from achieving  air superiority is essential.
 

One of my former colleagues wife is from Odessa and her parents are still there. Pretty crappy situation. This city looks like it’s going to be the next hotspot, because the Russian Navy is starting to close in and has already started some bombardments. This might be a time to give the Ukrainians some bigger rockets to get these ships out of the way. Sinking one of these vessels would be also something that would be hard to hide for Putin. We sure have means to get this job done and should give it to the Ukrainians, if they can put it to use.

 

Thought I read that Ukraine sunk that battleship that took the “go Fawk yourself” island….

 

Didn’t even think about Vietnam…and didn’t know about Korea..agreed we should have never tipped out hand or advertised that we were delivering the Migs or anything else…let Putin find out Ukraine is armed to the teeth the hard way…

[no_free_lunch]

changegonnacome,

 

I disagree regarding Putin not wanting Ukraine. He considers that land, at least the east half as Russian. He also considers Ukrainians as being Russian.

 

He is evil but he's not going all out yet.  I know that even in WW2 the Nazis would destroy the cities to rubble in a few days in cases. You aren't seeing that here and surely they have more capacity than 75 years ago.  It seems like Putin is ratcheting up the terror campaign in steps.  It started out more precise and as they get frustrated they turn to civilians..  As much as I despise them this is not gloves off yet.

 

Spek,

 

You really nailed it. I can add that SAM sights in Vietnam would be supplied and sometimes even staffed by Chinese soldiers who would shoot down American planes.  In Korea, American soldiers were actually directly fighting with Chinese forces who stepped in.  There was a Russian fighter got shot down by turkey just a few years ago in Syria.  I don't know, it feels like nonsense.  Give them the weapons they need. It's the Ukrainians doing the dying which is the more challenging part.  Let's jam the Russia army up so this never happens again. 

[Xerxes]

1 hour ago, Blugolds11 said:

 

Thought I read that Ukraine sunk that battleship that took the “go Fawk yourself” island….

 

 

When I heard that it reminded of me Norway old gun batteries in Oslo sinking the German heavy cruiser Blucher on the eve of the invasion, which was carrying the diplomatic and personal staff of the invading force. 

[Xerxes]

I have always found PBS Frontline to have amazing investigative journalism. All the interviews are in YouTube full but the full episode is the thing to watch. 

I don’t think we have access in Canada (yet) for those in U.S. here is the link. 

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/frontline/film/putins-road-to-war/

[Xerxes]

39 minutes ago, no_free_lunch said:

 

 

Spek,

 

You really nailed it. I can add that SAM sights in Vietnam would be supplied and sometimes even staffed by Chinese soldiers who would shoot down American planes.  In Korea, American soldiers were actually directly fighting with Chinese forces who stepped in.  There was a Russian fighter got shot down by turkey just a few years ago in Syria.  I don't know, it feels like nonsense.  Give them the weapons they need. It's the Ukrainians doing the dying which is the more challenging part.  Let's jam the Russia army up so this never happens again. 

and more appropriately and more related is the infamous “Mig corridor” during the Korean War. Soviet pilots actually flying Migs with Korean insignia. 

[james22]

10 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

When I heard that it reminded of me Norway old gun batteries in Oslo sinking the German heavy cruiser Blucher on the eve of the invasion, which was carrying the diplomatic and personal staff of the invading force. 

 

Putin’s failed coup in Ukraine reminds me a bit of the failed German coup in Norway in April 1940. Of course the Germans ended up taking control of Norway, just as Putin can end up in physical control of Ukraine if he is willing to take the necessary steps and pay the price. But Hitler had wanted the same kind of clean coup in Norway that he had achieved in Denmark — the King and royal family held hostage and a formal surrender from the legitimate government, with no exile government or forces.

 

He didn’t get that because the Norwegian resistance was unexpectedly strong, and one cranky old officer on the verge of retirement and a bunch of raw 18-year-old conscripts managed to sink one battlecruiser and put another out of action, incidentally drowning the 1000-man special forces team that had been assigned to capture the King, Parliament, and treasury. By throwing the German schedule off by six hours and losing the element of surprise, all of those targets got away and eventually made their way to London where they set up an effective government in exile. The Nazis had to do with a makeshift puppet regime headed by the nutjob* Quisling, who had very little credibility with the Norwegians or anybody else.

 

https://instapundit.com/505936/

[changegonnacome]

26 minutes ago, no_free_lunch said:

I disagree regarding Putin not wanting Ukraine. He considers that land, at least the east half as Russian. He also considers Ukrainians as being Russian.

 

Yeah I agree the contested territories (Crimea etc.), the ones where effectively a war has been going on since 2014 will be annexed and officially handed over (or shared) in the peace deal being negotiated right now. I would also say just from a domestic Russian PR perspective, the mothers of Russia in exchange for their sons coming back in body bags, need to see some land won in exchange. So were in agreement here and I said the same some threads back.

 

However the idea that Putin is attempting to invade, capture & occupy the other 95% of Ukraine is the part I disagree with strongly and just isn't the case & for which I see the media constantly spin the narrative about invasion, caputure & occupation as if this is Poland in 1945 or something. It isnt.

 

I cant remember the name of the General who was on CNN who spoke exactly to this point, that Putin's army amassed as it was around Ukraine is/was too small to be an occupying force......it is effectively a demolition crew.....his example he gave was when he was in Afghanistan he took a city with 100,000 men at his command, occupied the local government buildings and called his commander to tell him - "hey listen we took the city with 100k men, thats the good news, to occupy & hold the city we'll need 300,000 more men". This is the kind of military math that anyone who studies these things can see.

 

The generals point is my one too - 190,000 Russian troops amassed as they were tell you by military math the fact that Putin/Russia never intended to invade, capture & occupy the whole of Ukraine...........but this idea floating around in the media and on this board that he was heading to Kiev to occupy government buildings and stay there forever forever is just flat out wrong & the facts back it up. But alas the facts don't fit the narrative & that gets a-lot of peoples backs up, which I understand.

[Blugolds]

“Ukraine’s military intelligence published a letter allegedly written by Russian Defense Minister Sergei Shoigu asking for Russian President Vladimir Putin’s permission to start mass logging of Ukrainian forests. The wood would be sold, and the money would go for the Russian army. “All forests in the temporarily occupied territories are at the highest risk,” Ukraine’s intelligence said”

 

This just gets better and better…..just how are you going to start a mass logging operation with heavy machinery and trucking…I don’t know the seasons in Ukraine like I do here, but I know several family/friends who own large logging operations…they are out of the woods shortly, if not already. Snow is melting, ground is thawing…its the wet season and those machines are large and heavy..the logistics of even getting the machines back in there are unbelievable, they even have semi trucks full of huge Timbers (like railroad ties) to build “mats” in wet/soft spots in case they run a little late in the season on a job. That’s not even considering the fact that the trucks themselves need to be loaded in the woods before heading to the mills..

 

I almost find this hard to believe.