Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 17 minutes ago, dwy000 said: Right or wrong depends entirely upon who youre asking. Its why the law exists. It’s the entire basis for our western culture. Terrible answer. So you just follow the law because? It’s right or wrong because it law? This is what I mean, you guys just think these laws just spawned on a page and they are some holy writ. The law, which I think we agree is for the most part morale, is downstream of a dominant culture that imposes it on everyone else. In nearly every case, it was violence that secured these rights and enshrined them in law. But there are bad laws too. Without a compass of your own, how can you tell the difference?
Spekulatius Posted January 4 Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, cubsfan said: A very similar episode happened with Osama bin Laden. The USA was NOT at war with Pakistan, who was in fact an ally. President Obama chose an act of war by invading Pakistan and murdering several civilians, along with Osama's family. No "permission" from the UN, Pakistan, etc, etc. But, as you point out, Obama was correctly hailed as a hero in this illegal action. Trump did the exact same thing. The difference was that OBL was the mastermind behind an attack on US soil killing more than 3000 people. Maduro and Venezuela has done none of this or he would be dead already. This was also a promise that Bush made to the American people and Obama simply fulfilled it. The intervention in Afghanistan was a mistake and we would be better off if no American soldier would ever have set his foot in Afghanistan or Irak for that matter.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 10 minutes ago, Spekulatius said: So if any foreign nation would remove Trump in a special operation and capture him and his wife and throw them in a detention center (let’s say on a foreign diplomat trip etc) you do not think we would be at war with them? I think Maduro deserves to be removed but we have to be clear about what is done here. Also, one has to be really careful about the end result justifying the means. Thats a slippery slope that lead to many really bad outcomes before. Apples and oranges and I don’t care to compare. You agree he deserved to be removed, you disagree on reasons (as do I actually - oil - really??!?).
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, Sweet said: Terrible answer. So you just follow the law because? It’s right or wrong because it law? This is what I mean, you guys just think these laws just spawned on a page and they are some holy writ. The law, which I think we agree is for the most part morale, is downstream of a dominant culture that imposes it on everyone else. In nearly every case, it was violence that secured these rights and enshrined them in law. But there are bad laws too. Without a compass of your own, how can you tell the difference? No. The laws that govern have been created, adapted, modified and amended to apply to our society. The can be judged and they can be appealed. I follow the law because that is the entire basis for how our society functions. If you dont follow the law and just what you personally think is right and wrong you have chaos.
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 2 minutes ago, Sweet said: Apples and oranges and I don’t care to compare. You agree he deserved to be removed, you disagree on reasons (as do I actually - oil - really??!?). Do you agree that Putin should be removed? What about Netanyahu? What about the head of the UK? There are people who wholeheartedly support the removal of just about every head of state in the world. But just because we agree or not we dont go out on the whim of whoever is in charge that month and take them out.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 minute ago, dwy000 said: No. The laws that govern have been created, adapted, modified and amended to apply to our society. The can be judged and they can be appealed. I follow the law because that is the entire basis for how our society functions. If you dont follow the law and just what you personally think is right and wrong you have chaos. Are you deliberately missing the point? I follow the laws, ones I agree with and ones I don’t. Irrelevant. I’m not asking you for a legal opinion on Maduro’s removal. I’m asking you a morale question, what’s your compass? You are writing about getting together and forming consensus, that’s a right, you think it was won by having a chat with those opposed to such a method of government? Come on.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 minute ago, dwy000 said: Do you agree that Putin should be removed? What about Netanyahu? What about the head of the UK? There are people who wholeheartedly support the removal of just about every head of state in the world. But just because we agree or not we dont go out on the whim of whoever is in charge that month and take them out. I would love for Putin to be removed. No opinion on Netanyahu. Starmer a resounding no, he won an election, I don’t share his politics but so what. Part of this is realpolitik though. It’s almost like you just want to operate on theory and ideology and ignore compromises. I’d love for Putin to be removed, should he if it causes nukes to fly?… erm maybe not. Complicated world.
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 3 minutes ago, Sweet said: Are you deliberately missing the point? I follow the laws, ones I agree with and ones I don’t. Irrelevant. I’m not asking you for a legal opinion on Maduro’s removal. I’m asking you a morale question, what’s your compass? You are writing about getting together and forming consensus, that’s a right, you think it was won by having a chat with those opposed to such a method of government? Come on. You're missing my point. My view of Maduro is that he is terrible and I'm glad he is gone. But that is my personal opinion and personal opinions are not enough to justify breaking the law. Im sure there are millions globally who love the guy. Just like Putin and Un and other dictators. And for the actions taken the "getting together and forming a consensus" by getting congressional approval IS the law. The fact that intelligent people can disagree is exactly the reason that law is in place. If a majority agree then action can ve legally taken.
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 7 minutes ago, Sweet said: I would love for Putin to be removed. No opinion on Netanyahu. Starmer a resounding no, he won an election, I don’t share his politics but so what. Part of this is realpolitik though. It’s almost like you just want to operate on theory and ideology and ignore compromises. I’d love for Putin to be removed, should he if it causes nukes to fly?… erm maybe not. Complicated world. Exactly the opposite. I DONT want to operate on theory and ideology. I want to operate based on the law. There is a legal route to the US engaging militarily with a foreign power. And that was not taken. You are claiming thats okay because most people agree that ideologically Maduro was evil. Its not regardless of how evil he is. The law must be followed.
TwoCitiesCapital Posted January 4 Posted January 4 17 minutes ago, Sweet said: Are you deliberately missing the point? I follow the laws, ones I agree with and ones I don’t. Irrelevant. I’m not asking you for a legal opinion on Maduro’s removal. I’m asking you a morale question, what’s your compass? You are writing about getting together and forming consensus, that’s a right, you think it was won by having a chat with those opposed to such a method of government? Come on. Right and wrong don't always align with laws - and we can debate on whether or not it serves the greater good to break unjust laws. There will be times where it makes sense to break laws. There will be times where it makes sense to do so once BUT causes larger damage down the road by setting bad precedent that is later abused. When we're dealing with people, it's probably the first option we should be judging by. With systems, probably the latter as the system will outlive the people. Having a system where a President can unilaterally do what he wants while not respecting int'l laws or borders might have been "right" in this instance, but it sets very dangerous precedents and creates a system that can cause larger damage down the road. As has already been pointed out, what's to stop Trump (or any other world leader) from doing this again? Where do we have the moral high ground in telling Putin he can't do this to Ukraine while we do it in Venezuela? When dictators go awry - hundreds of thousands, if not millions, die. Rather than risk a system that allows the U.S.A to fall victim to a domestic dictator, I'd rather have systems in place that prevent it from happening even if that means standing aside to let Venezuela deal with their own. Allowing the one "failure" to protect the broader "system" to prevent catastrophic failures down the road. Very similar to how our current justice system works in allowing certain guilty individuals walk free to best attempt not to incarcerate the innocent. Individual failures allowed to better sustain the broader system that protects us not just from crime but unjust accusations.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 6 minutes ago, dwy000 said: You're missing my point. My view of Maduro is that he is terrible and I'm glad he is gone. But that is my personal opinion and personal opinions are not enough to justify breaking the law. Im sure there are millions globally who love the guy. Just like Putin and Un and other dictators. And for the actions taken the "getting together and forming a consensus" by getting congressional approval IS the law. The fact that intelligent people can disagree is exactly the reason that law is in place. If a majority agree then action can ve legally taken. I’m not missing your point, I think you’re being a coward - not said with malice - just saying it how I see it. We all know this is a grey area, and as Cubs said, Congress was not consulted when OBL was killed. Grey area now, grey then. All I’m trying to say, is it’s complicated. Falling back on ‘what’s the law’ or ‘what’s legal’ is a cop out from answering. And what I’m getting from the conversation generally is I don’t think you guys understand what it takes to preserve and maintain these values enshrined in law. You live in a world of ideology. sorry. Just saying what I see
Parsad Posted January 4 Posted January 4 7 hours ago, Gregmal said: There were quite a few people here, opining quite emphatically on Elon Musks “Nazi Salute” a year ago. I’d imagine they’re just on vacation now or haven’t yet seen Mamdani doing the “Nazi thing” but upon learning of it, will bombard us with similar hot takes! You can pretty clearly see that Mamdani moved his hand from his heart to wave the audience. Musk's arm literally bolted from his heart right to the Nazi salute. Please! Cheers!
Parsad Posted January 4 Posted January 4 2 hours ago, 73 Reds said: Re. Iran an emphatic Nope. Imminent threats must be removed. Over and over again as long as necessary. There is, and never was an alternative. Venezuela was an imminent threat? From what...banana spiders? It's all about the oil and minerals fella...they didn't give two shits about Maduro if he played ball. Cheers!
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 minute ago, Sweet said: I’m not missing your point, I think you’re being a coward - not said with malice - just saying it how I see it. We all know this is a grey area, and as Cubs said, Congress was not consulted when OBL was killed. Grey area now, grey then. All I’m trying to say, is it’s complicated. Falling back on ‘what’s the law’ or ‘what’s legal’ is a cop out from answering. And what I’m getting from the conversation generally is I don’t think you guys understand what it takes to preserve and maintain these values enshrined in law. You live in a world of ideology. sorry. Just saying what I see And to the point just made by @twocities the whole purpose of having the law be the definitive judge is because of grey areas. Because people disagree and the outcomes can be massive and long lasting. Coward has zero to do with it because the outcome is exactly the same. To your entire point - its a question of right or wrong. If its the right thing to do then following the law is fast, easy and just as effective. This was no emergency situation that had to be dealt with today. According to the administration its been in the works for months.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 19 minutes ago, dwy000 said: Exactly the opposite. I DONT want to operate on theory and ideology. I want to operate based on the law. There is a legal route to the US engaging militarily with a foreign power. And that was not taken. You are claiming thats okay because most people agree that ideologically Maduro was evil. Its not regardless of how evil he is. The law must be followed. Obama launch many strikes without Congress approval and I bet you didn’t care. If it’s a legal grey area, as it clearly the case, you have to be able to weigh it up without falling back on law.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 6 minutes ago, dwy000 said: And to the point just made by @twocities the whole purpose of having the law be the definitive judge is because of grey areas. Because people disagree and the outcomes can be massive and long lasting. Coward has zero to do with it because the outcome is exactly the same. To your entire point - it’s a question of right or wrong. If it’s the right thing to do then following the law is fast, easy and just as effective. This was no emergency situation that had to be dealt with today. According to the administration it’s been in the works for months. What are you talking about. If the legality is grey how can it be definitive or judged definitively? The US president does not require congressional to conduct military strikes or interventions as proven again and again under previous admins.
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 18 minutes ago, TwoCitiesCapital said: Right and wrong don't always align with laws - and we can debate on whether or not it serves the greater good to break unjust laws. There will be times where it makes sense to break laws. There will be times where it makes sense to do so once BUT causes larger damage down the road by setting bad precedent that is later abused. When we're dealing with people, it's probably the first option we should be judging by. With systems, probably the latter as the system will outlive the people. Having a system where a President can unilaterally do what he wants while not respecting int'l laws or borders might have been "right" in this instance, but it sets very dangerous precedents and creates a system that can cause larger damage down the road. As has already been pointed out, what's to stop Trump (or any other world leader) from doing this again? Where do we have the moral high ground in telling Putin he can't do this to Ukraine while we do it in Venezuela? When dictators go awry - hundreds of thousands, if not millions, die. Rather than risk a system that allows the U.S.A to fall victim to a domestic dictator, I'd rather have systems in place that prevent it from happening even if that means standing aside to let Venezuela deal with their own. Allowing the one "failure" to protect the broader "system" to prevent catastrophic failures down the road. Very similar to how our current justice system works in allowing certain guilty individuals walk free to best attempt not to incarcerate the innocent. Individual failures allowed to better sustain the broader system that protects us not just from crime but unjust accusations. Right! There are times when laws will be broken or in grey areas. Whether it is good or bad depends on what way it swings in the long run based on a core set of values you hold, especially when the law provides no clear answer. What I’m trying to get at is the world is flipping complicated, it will stretch and bend the laws, and pit your values against one another. Knowing how to compromise in a complicated world matters!
scorpioncapital Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Spekulatius said: If you separate the head from the snake, it is probably not going to bite you any more. Do you think the leadership that remains in place would launch nuclear weapons to avenge a dead leader. they probably would bee happy to be rid of him, not because they are necessarily much better, but because he threatens everyone including them. These regimes are run on bribery and fear just like a mobsters. The reason it’s not done is because Putin is part of the right wing leader brotherhood. Perhaps, but do you really believe Putin can be in power without significant support from many others around him - and even the people? Look at Hitler in Germany or the Venezuelan guy just got canned. Do you think he could have done it without the tacit support, vote, or at least lack of resistance from the people? A nation , while having terrible leaders, is often in subtle ways supporting that leader in more ways than one. Circumstances can make terrible consensus. Look how they excommunicated or killed all their opposition, those who are left are by tautology 'for the regime' I do agree in the extreme it is possible that a nation like North Korea has totally quashed all dissent, but more times than not there is a mobilization of resources, thought, and community, whether for good or evil. It is sad, but true. Bad situations tend to change the minds of even good people in subtle ways. For example, I met a lady who visited a Western country with lots of homeless on the streets, drug addicts. She was shocked and remarked to me - how can the State allow all these useless people around? They should be killed! Or locked up. Or sent to war. They are useless! This would never be allowed in my country. Well, I was somewhat shocked but is there a kernel of truth? Idk. These nations that have this issue also have very liberal euthanasia laws. Problems are often the same everywhere but they are dealt with in different ways. Some fear to speak the truth, others are more direct, some fight, some use repression. Perhaps all these geopolitical moves are going to improve the world, after the initial trauma. Many nations became very good global citizens after a major disaster. Of course it is better to do it with less killing, less suffering. The 21st century seems to be a century where the right to land and control is determined by productive development, not historical precedent. We can all agree Venezuela was a very inefficient, badly run Socialist nation. We might even agree the same about Russia and Ukraine. But what happens when two very badly run countries are arguing about which of them is better able to improve the situation lol? If you ask me, my money is on past and current success. That is why people look to EU and USA as more likely to help Ukraine develop than Russia. Taiwan and China are interesting because both are relatively successful so is there really a need for a 'change in management'?
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 13 minutes ago, Sweet said: What are you talking about. If the legality is grey how can it be definitive or judged definitively? The US president does not require congressional to conduct military strikes or interventions as proven again and again under previous admins. Im not saying the law is grey I'm saying the morality and justification is grey (as it always is). The law is clear. The President only has that right if the US is under attack. Otherwise the constitution requires congressional approval
Sweet Posted January 4 Posted January 4 (edited) 7 minutes ago, dwy000 said: The President only has that right if the US is under attack. Otherwise the constitution requires congressional approval To do what - declare war? There is no war. To intervene? Wrong… previous presidents used AUMF powers without a declaration of war even if they weren’t intended for that purpose and there wasn’t a whisper. Edited January 4 by Sweet
Spekulatius Posted January 4 Posted January 4 Pretty good analysis of the Venezuela special military operation:
bargainman Posted January 4 Posted January 4 On 12/30/2025 at 7:19 PM, RichardGibbons said: Oh, if there's no difference between a gun and a knife, surely then a knife should be sufficient for your self defence needs. Strangely, Canada's per capita knife death aren't comparable to USA's per capita gun deaths. And even more oddly, the number of knife homicides in Canada is still below the number of gun homicides in Canada. The evidence is pretty convincing that more legal guns in society results in more gun deaths (and you'd probably actually agree with me if I changed the word "guns" to "drugs"). I could argue your other points, but they're not good points for pretty obvious reasons, and I don't think you really care to have a good-faith discussion. So feel free to feel great about how you're completely right, that the massive number of gun deaths in the USA is completely unrelated to the fact that it's easy to own guns there. I think Kirk actually had the right argument, the one that's actually plausible: that the benefits of guns outweighs the excess gun deaths. It just seems silly when people try to argue that gun deaths are uncorrelated to the degree that guns are legal in a country. Curiously, a few years ago the majority of gun deaths in the US were actually suicides. Much more than homicides which was 2nd. https://publichealth.jhu.edu/center-for-gun-violence-solutions/issues/gun-violence-in-the-united-states
cubsfan Posted January 4 Posted January 4 1 hour ago, Spekulatius said: The difference was that OBL was the mastermind behind an attack on US soil killing more than 3000 people. Maduro and Venezuela has done none of this or he would be dead already. This was also a promise that Bush made to the American people and Obama simply fulfilled it. The intervention in Afghanistan was a mistake and we would be better off if no American soldier would ever have set his foot in Afghanistan or Irak for that matter. You have no idea what you're talking about. Estimates are Maduro is responsible for 20,000 deaths by his death squads - killing his opponents in Venezuela. He's also responsible for countless drug deaths in America and emptying his prisons of killers and rapists and sending them to America. Like bin Laden, Maduro had a $25M reward for his capture - this one set by President Biden - specifically for Narco-Terrorism.
NnnnotSoSmart Posted January 4 Posted January 4 39 minutes ago, Parsad said: Venezuela was an imminent threat? From what...banana spiders? It's all about the oil and minerals fella...they didn't give two shits about Maduro if he played ball. Cheers! Friend forward this to me. Apparently authored by a Tracy Shuggart. Cannot find a link to the article on the web. Probably behind a paywall. Suppose presence of China, Iran and Russia could be deemed "an imminent threat'. The Real Reason the Pentagon Approved Venezuela: Critical Minerals and Adversary Expulsion Understanding the Decision Architecture Before examining the strategic calculus behind the January 3, 2026 military operation in Venezuela, it is essential to understand who actually makes decisions of this magnitude. In the American national security apparatus, the Pentagon does not await presidential direction on major military operations. The Pentagon assesses threats, evaluates strategic priorities, and determines when military action crosses from option to necessity. The president then executes what the military establishment has already decided is required. This is not constitutional theory. This is operational reality. When the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and theater commanders present a unified position that a specific threat configuration demands military response, civilian leadership approves or faces the political consequences of overriding the uniformed military on national security grounds. Trump’s public statements about oil and his claim that Venezuela’s resources will benefit the United States represent the political narrative constructed to sell the operation domestically. The Pentagon’s determination that adversary presence and critical mineral vulnerabilities required kinetic action represents the actual decision calculus. The targeting package, operational timeline, force structure, and strategic objectives were determined by military planners based on threat assessment and capability requirements. The decision to strike was made when the Pentagon concluded that the convergence of Chinese resource control, Iranian weapons manufacturing, and Russian military integration exceeded acceptable risk parameters. Trump’s role was to authorize what had already been deemed militarily necessary and provide political cover through public messaging about drugs and oil. This matters because the oil narrative, while politically convenient, obscures the actual strategic imperatives that drove Pentagon approval. Understanding what the military establishment determined was worth the largest US operation in Latin America since 1989 requires looking past presidential rhetoric to threat assessments and capability vulnerabilities that define Pentagon planning. The Prevailing Narrative is Political Theater The prevailing narrative surrounding the operation centers on oil and narcotics trafficking. This framing is politically convenient but strategically incomplete. Yes, the Pentagon has approved military operations for oil before. Iraq 2003 stands as definitive proof that oil access, regional control, and maintaining petrodollar hegemony can justify kinetic action, regardless of whatever WMD theater gets constructed for public consumption. But Venezuelan oil in 2026 does not meet the strategic threshold that Iraqi oil did in 2003. Iraq represented control of Middle East oil flows at a critical chokepoint, leverage over global pricing through OPEC’s largest reserves, petrodollar system maintenance, and prevention of a regional hegemon controlling Gulf supplies. Venezuela represents collapsed production (700,000 barrels per day versus Iraq’s potential 3+ million), Western Hemisphere location with no chokepoint control, degraded infrastructure, and a country already sanctioned and marginalized from global markets. If this were purely about oil, the operation would have happened in 2019 during the Guaidó crisis when production was higher and infrastructure less damaged. The timing in 2026 corresponds to when critical minerals became the Pentagon’s top priority ($7.5 billion allocation), when China restricted rare earth exports (April 2025) demonstrating willingness to weaponize supply chains, when Chinese buyers achieved operational control of Venezuelan mining operations, when IRGC drone manufacturing facilities became operational, and when Russian military advisers reached comprehensive integration with Venezuelan forces. What justifies this action, from a Pentagon strategic perspective, is the convergence of three existential threats from America’s three primary adversaries. China has embedded operational control into critical mineral extraction that feeds weapons manufacturing. Iran has established drone production facilities within strike range of the continental United States. Russia has deployed military advisers and integrated air defense systems in the Caribbean. Venezuela represents the only location where all three adversaries operate simultaneously. The oil is secondary. Breaking Chinese supply chain dominance, eliminating Iranian manufacturing capability, and expelling Russian military presence are primary. The Pentagon’s Critical Minerals Crisis The Department of War has allocated $7.5 billion under the One Big Beautiful Bill Act specifically for critical minerals, with $1 billion already deployed to stockpile antimony, bismuth, cobalt, indium, scandium, and tantalum. This is not economic policy. This is national security infrastructure. The United States is 100% import reliant for 12 critical minerals and over 50% reliant for 28 of the 50 minerals classified as essential to national security. These materials are not interchangeable. They cannot be substituted. They form the irreducible foundation of modern weapons systems. China controls between 60% and 95% of global processing capacity for most critical minerals. More critically, China processes 91% of rare earth elements globally. When the Pentagon needs neodymium for permanent magnets in missile guidance systems, or tantalum for capacitors in radar equipment, or cobalt for superalloys in fighter jet engines, those materials pass through Chinese refineries. This creates a chokepoint that Beijing demonstrated willingness to exploit when it imposed export restrictions on rare earths in April 2025 as retaliation for US tariffs. The Pentagon’s stockpiling initiative targets the exact materials found in Venezuela’s southern mining regions. Tantalum, derived from coltan ore, received $100 million in procurement funding. Antimony secured $245 million. Cobalt warranted $500 million. These are not market purchases. These are strategic reserve acquisitions designed to ensure weapons production continuity during supply chain disruption. The fact that Pentagon allocated this funding demonstrates that critical minerals have been elevated to the same strategic priority tier as ammunition and fuel. Venezuela’s Geological Treasure: The Blue Gold Hugo Chávez understood what he possessed when he announced in 2009 that Venezuela held vast reserves of coltan, which he termed “blue gold.” He explicitly connected it to African conflicts, noting wars fought over this mineral used in “long-range rockets.” The Orinoco Mining Arc, spanning 111,843 square kilometers across Bolívar and Amazonas states, contains documented deposits of coltan (tantalum ore), cassiterite (tin ore), rare earth elements, bauxite, gold, and speculative lithium reserves. Coltan is essential for manufacturing tantalum capacitors used in every advanced electronic system, including military communications equipment, missile guidance computers, and radar systems. Rare earth elements enable the permanent magnets required for precision-guided munitions, aircraft actuators, and electromagnetic systems. Cassiterite provides tin for solder in all electronics assembly, including defense systems. Bauxite feeds aluminum production for aerospace applications. These are not theoretical deposits. Investigative reporting documented Chinese buyers operating directly at mining sites in Bolívar state. The Venezuelan government established official collection centers in Los Pijiguaos and Morichalito in 2023 specifically for cassiterite, coltan, nickel, rhodium, and titanium. The Maduro regime designated these as strategic resources for commercialization, meaning state control over extraction and export, with Chinese buyers integrated into official operations from the start. China’s Supply Chain Stranglehold The supply chain from Venezuelan mines to Chinese refineries operates through both formal and informal channels, with Chinese buyers exercising operational control at the extraction source. Minerals extracted in the Orinoco Arc move by river and air transport to Colombian border towns, then to Bogotá for smelting into refined bars. These materials are relabeled under incorrect tariff codes, transforming raw ore into processed ferro-tantalum or other classifications that obscure origin. Final export occurs through Colombian ports at Santa Marta and Buenaventura, destined for Chinese processing facilities. Once Venezuelan minerals blend with Colombian or Brazilian ore in these intermediary steps, tracing origin becomes effectively impossible. This laundering mechanism allows Venezuelan minerals to enter legitimate global supply chains, including those feeding US defense contractors. The result is Pentagon weapons systems potentially incorporating materials extracted under Chinese buyer supervision in Venezuelan territory, then processed in Chinese refineries controlled by Beijing. Chinese buyers do not operate at arm’s length through market transactions. They coordinate directly at the mining sites with both Colombian guerrilla groups (ELN, FARC dissidents) who control physical security and Venezuelan state security (SEBIN) who facilitate transport using official government vehicles. One miner described seeing Chinese operatives and ELN commanders “eating together, buying material together, and getting off the helicopter together.” This is not commercial activity. This is integrated operational control where Chinese buyers work directly with armed groups and state officials to extract strategic minerals. The Venezuelan government’s establishment of official collection centers in Los Pijiguaos and Morichalito created state sanction for Chinese operations. These are not informal smuggling networks. These are officially designated strategic resource commercialization centers where Chinese buyers coordinate with Venezuelan state mining corporation CVM. China has positioned itself to control Venezuelan critical mineral output at the source, ensuring materials flow to Chinese processing facilities regardless of sanctions or formal government policy. China’s 2025 export restrictions on rare earths, imposed as retaliation for US tariffs, intensified global competition for alternative sources and demonstrated Beijing’s willingness to weaponize critical mineral supply chains when convenient. Western nations seeking to diversify away from Chinese processing looked to Venezuela, only to discover Chinese buyers already controlled extraction operations. This is strategic encirclement where China dominates both global processing infrastructure and alternative source extraction. Venezuela represents one of the few significant sources of coltan, rare earths, and related minerals outside direct Chinese territorial control, but Chinese operational presence at the mining sites makes these resources effectively Chinese-controlled despite Western Hemisphere location. IRGC: Iranian Weapons Manufacturing in the Western Hemisphere Secretary of State Marco Rubio confirmed in December 2025 what intelligence services had documented for years. Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps maintains an “anchor presence” in Venezuela, with Hezbollah operating alongside. This is not diplomatic liaison. This is operational infrastructure. Documented Iranian weapons transfers to Venezuela since 2020 include Mohajer-6 unmanned aerial vehicles with 2,000 kilometer operational range, sufficient to reach any target in Florida. Venezuela has publicly displayed these systems in military parades from 2021 through 2023. The Alma Research and Education Center, an Israeli defense research organization, catalogued the specific systems and noted that “IRGC operatives stationed in Venezuela can target US assets or navy ships in the Caribbean or directly attack American soil.” More concerning than individual weapons transfers is Iran’s decision to outsource drone production to Venezuela. Manufacturing facilities now exist on Venezuelan territory capable of producing offensive drones domestically. This represents permanent Iranian military-industrial presence in the Western Hemisphere, not temporary weapons sales. An October 2020 IRGC cargo flight from Tehran to Caracas was met by approximately 10 container trucks and 40 personnel upon landing. Then-State Department official Elliott Abrams warned that “transfer of long-range missiles from Iran to Venezuela is not acceptable to the United States and will not be tolerated.” The Iranian presence includes Zolfaghar-class fast attack boats armed with CM-90 anti-ship missiles, the export version of Iran’s Nasr system. These missiles have 55 mile range and travel at 760 miles per hour using active radar guidance. Venezuelan Defense Minister Vladimir Padrino López was filmed touring the CM-90 workshop at Puerto Cabello. These are not defensive capabilities. These are area denial systems designed to threaten US naval operations in the Caribbean. Hezbollah networks in Venezuela extend beyond weapons to include fundraising, logistics, and operational planning infrastructure. These networks have operated for years in the tri-border region of Argentina, Brazil, and Paraguay, as well as on Venezuela’s Margarita Island. The concern is not that Hezbollah will disappear if Maduro falls. The concern is that these networks provide Iran with persistent intelligence, financial, and operational capabilities in the Americas that survive regime changes. From a Pentagon perspective, the existence of Iranian drone manufacturing facilities 1,200 miles from Miami, combined with demonstrated willingness to transfer missile systems and Hezbollah operational infrastructure, represents an intolerable threat posture. This is not about narcotics. This is about adversary power projection capability within strike range of the continental United States. Russian Military Advisory Mission and Systems Over 120 Russian troops operate in Venezuela under Lieutenant General Oleg Makarevich, leading what Ukrainian intelligence identifies as the “Equator Task Force.” This is not symbolic presence. Makarevich is the same general who commanded the operation to destroy the Kakhovka Dam in Ukraine, causing catastrophic flooding. His deployment to Venezuela leading a rotational advisory mission indicates Moscow’s assessment of strategic importance. Russian advisers provide training across multiple domains including infantry, drone operations, special forces, military intelligence, signals intelligence, armor, aircraft, artillery, and domestic surveillance. They are positioned in Caracas, Maracaibo, La Guaira, and Aves Island. This is comprehensive military-to-military integration, not limited technical assistance. Venezuela’s military operates Russian-supplied Sukhoi Su-30 fighters armed with Kh-31 anti-ship missiles, the same systems that forced US Navy planners in the 1990s to develop specific countermeasures due to their speed and sea-skimming flight profile. Venezuelan air defense includes S-125 Pechora, Buk-M2E, and thousands of Igla-S surface-to-air missile systems positioned near oil facilities, radar sites, and naval approaches. While aging, these systems remain capable of threatening helicopters and lower-flying aircraft. Russian radar arrays and Chinese communication relays create what military planners term a “contested electromagnetic spectrum.” US forces cannot assume undetected operations or unjammed communications. This is anti-access area denial infrastructure in the Caribbean, 1,200 miles from American territory. Russian cargo flights continue delivering military equipment. Venezuelan officials have requested assistance refurbishing Su-30 fighters and acquiring 14 additional missile systems from Moscow. The strategic calculation from a Pentagon perspective is straightforward. Russia is establishing military infrastructure, training networks, and operational familiarity in America’s strategic backyard exactly as the United States has done in Russia’s near abroad. The difference is proximity. Venezuelan territory sits far closer to the continental United States than Ukraine sits to Western Europe. If the Pentagon tolerates Russian military advisory missions in Venezuela, complete with signals intelligence training and air defense systems, it accepts adversary power projection capability in the Western Hemisphere. Why Venezuelan Oil Doesn’t Meet the Iraq Threshold The Pentagon has absolutely approved military operations for oil before. Iraq 2003 stands as definitive proof. The Gulf wars were fundamentally about oil access, regional control, and maintaining petrodollar hegemony, regardless of the WMD narrative constructed for public consumption. So the question is not whether Pentagon acts for oil. The question is why Venezuelan oil in 2026 does not meet the strategic threshold that Iraqi oil did in 2003. Iraq represented multiple converging strategic imperatives. Control of Middle East oil flows at the critical Persian Gulf chokepoint through which roughly 20% of global oil supply transits. Leverage over global pricing through the second-largest proven reserves in OPEC. Petrodollar system maintenance by ensuring oil transactions continue in dollars. Prevention of a hostile regional hegemon controlling Gulf supplies that could weaponize energy access against Western economies. Iraqi oil production potential exceeded 3 million barrels per day with room to expand significantly. The infrastructure, while damaged by sanctions, remained fundamentally intact and capable of rapid restoration. Venezuela in 2026 presents none of these conditions. Production has collapsed from peak levels of 3 million barrels per day to approximately 700,000 barrels per day due to sanctions, mismanagement, and lack of investment. The infrastructure is severely degraded and would require tens of billions in reconstruction before reaching previous output levels. Venezuela’s location in the Western Hemisphere provides no chokepoint control. The country has already been sanctioned and marginalized from global markets for years. There is no scenario where Venezuelan oil becomes critical to global supply when the United States possesses the largest proven domestic reserves, plus ready access to Canadian heavy oil, Saudi and UAE production, and expanding shale capacity. The timing reveals the actual priorities. If this were primarily about oil, the operation would have occurred in 2019 during the Guaidó crisis when production stood at roughly 1 million barrels per day, infrastructure was less damaged, and international support for regime change was stronger. The operation in January 2026 corresponds precisely to when critical minerals became the Pentagon’s top funding priority with $7.5 billion allocated, when China imposed rare earth export restrictions in April 2025 demonstrating willingness to weaponize supply chains, when Chinese operational control of Venezuelan mining reached full integration, and when IRGC drone manufacturing facilities became operational on Venezuelan soil. The targeting pattern confirms this. Strikes hit Fort Tiuna military complex, Miranda Airbase, La Guaira port, telecommunications infrastructure, and presidential facilities. These are command and control targets designed for regime removal and military degradation. Venezuelan state oil company PDVSA reported that production and refining operations continued normally with no damage to key facilities. If oil were the primary objective, refineries and production infrastructure would have been priority targets for either seizure or destruction. They were not touched. Trump’s public statements about running Venezuela and controlling oil production serve domestic political messaging. The American public understands oil. The narrative has been established since Iraq. Framing the operation around oil control provides simple, familiar justification that requires no explanation of tantalum supply chain vulnerabilities or IRGC manufacturing infrastructure. But Pentagon planners do not work from public narratives. They work from threat assessments and strategic vulnerability calculations. The Actual Pentagon Calculus: Three Adversaries, One Target The Pentagon approved this operation because Venezuela presented a convergence of strategic threats from all three major US adversaries that exceeded the threshold for military action, with each adversary establishing operational presence that created compounding strategic vulnerabilities. China embedded operational control at Venezuelan mining sites where critical minerals essential to weapons manufacturing are extracted. Chinese buyers coordinate directly with armed groups and state security, not through arm’s length market transactions. These materials flow through laundering networks to Chinese processing facilities that control 91% of global rare earth refining capacity. China demonstrated willingness to weaponize this supply chain dominance through April 2025 export restrictions. The result is complete Chinese control from extraction through processing of materials that feed into Pentagon weapons systems, with that control exercised on Western Hemisphere territory. Iran established drone manufacturing facilities on Venezuelan territory with 2,000 kilometer strike range covering Florida and the entire Caribbean. This represents permanent Iranian military-industrial presence in the Western Hemisphere, not temporary weapons transfers. Combined with Hezbollah operational networks for intelligence and logistics, anti-ship missile systems, and fast attack boats, Iran has created offensive capability 1,200 miles from continental United States. Sanctions and diplomatic pressure failed to eliminate this infrastructure over multiple years. Russia deployed over 120 military advisers under a general who commanded major operations in Ukraine, providing comprehensive training in signals intelligence, drone operations, special forces, and domestic surveillance. Russian radar arrays combined with Chinese communication relays create contested electromagnetic spectrum in the Caribbean. Russian air defense integration and ongoing weapons deliveries create adversary military infrastructure within operational range of American territory. These are not separate threats that happen to coexist in the same geography. These are integrated operations where Chinese communication systems support Russian radar arrays, where Iranian weapons manufacturing benefits from Chinese supply chain infrastructure, where Russian military training enhances Venezuelan capability to protect Chinese mining operations and Iranian production facilities. The three adversaries are mutually reinforcing each other’s operational effectiveness on Venezuelan territory. The operation targeted all three threats simultaneously. Regime removal eliminates the political framework that invited and protected Chinese resource capture, IRGC manufacturing presence, and Russian military integration. Military strikes degrade Iranian drone production infrastructure and Venezuelan offensive capabilities supported by Russian systems. Capture of Maduro and key officials disrupts the corrupt networks that facilitated Chinese buyer access to mining sites, IRGC weapons transfers, and Russian adviser deployment. Post-operation control allows the United States to reconfigure mineral extraction under conditions that prevent Chinese processing monopolization, dismantle Iranian manufacturing facilities, and expel Russian advisers. This is not about seizing resources for profit. This is about denying all three major adversaries access to strategic assets and removing their combined military presence from the Western Hemisphere in the same way that Iraq was about ensuring oil flows remained under conditions favorable to US strategic interests. Strategic Coherence The oil narrative persists because it provides simple explanation for public consumption and builds on established precedent from Iraq. The reality is more complex and more threatening. Venezuela became the only location in the Western Hemisphere where all three major US adversaries established simultaneous operational presence. China controlled critical mineral extraction essential to weapons manufacturing. Iran manufactured offensive weapons systems within strike range of American territory. Russia integrated military advisory missions and air defense systems. This convergence transformed Venezuela from a problematic narco-state into a strategic threat that exceeded the Pentagon’s tolerance threshold. Critical minerals are the foundation of modern weapons systems in the same way that oil access was foundation of 20th century military operations. Chinese monopolization of processing creates supply chain vulnerability that sanctions and market mechanisms cannot resolve, equivalent to hostile control of Persian Gulf chokepoints. Chinese operational control at extraction sites in the Western Hemisphere represents strategic encirclement. Iranian drone manufacturing 1,200 miles from Miami represents unacceptable adversary power projection. Russian military integration provides intelligence capabilities and force projection platform. The Pentagon approved Iraq for oil because controlling Middle East energy flows was strategically critical in that context. The Pentagon approved Venezuela for critical minerals and adversary expulsion because breaking Chinese supply chain monopolization while eliminating Iranian and Russian military presence is strategically critical in this context. Both operations share the same logic. Secure access to irreplaceable strategic resources. Deny adversaries leverage over critical supply chains. Remove threats to American military capability and homeland security. Trump talks about oil because voters understand oil and the narrative has been established since Iraq. The Pentagon planned this operation around breaking Chinese resource control, eliminating Iranian manufacturing capability, and expelling Russian military presence because generals understand strategic vulnerabilities in contemporary threat environments where China, Iran, and Russia operate as coordinated adversaries. The oil narrative is theater." Seems like a credible explanation. But then again I'm...
dwy000 Posted January 4 Posted January 4 17 minutes ago, Sweet said: To do what - declare war? There is no war. To intervene? Wrong… previous presidents used AUMF powers without a declaration of war even if they weren’t intended for that purpose and there wasn’t a whisper. Susan Wiles herself said that any action on the ground in Venezuela would require congressional approval.
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