Career Advice

[CorpRaider]

LOL.  You guys are going to cost the young man his career and his girlfriend!

[nkp007]

"How to destroy a relationship in one easy step" by Kraven

[frommi]

My boss considers it as an enormous opportunity (he is however “””slightly””” biased) but I have very very mixed feelings. I think the main part that interests me is managing a fund on my own, but that should not come above the type of instruments that I am managing...

 

Those opportunities don`t come often along, so just take it as Kraven said. Its possible that your boss won`t give you another chance in your carrier when you pass on that one. When you like equity investing so much, just do it at home with your own money or perhaps when you have time in your job. Its never wrong to get more knowledge, even when its boring on first sight.

[giofranchi]

I love analyzing companies, reading annual reports, valuing stocks, but after that I make my investment decision, I can't for the life of me think of writing abt the damn stock! what a redundant thing to do(but hey thats just me).

 

I find the process of writing about investment ideas extremely useful to clarify my thoughts. When I write, ideas seem to come to mind that previously weren’t there… of course they were, but probably weren’t very well articulated yet and remained a little blurry.

One of the reasons I like the board so much is that it gives you the chance to write about your investments and, of course, to get very competent feedback too!

But, as you have said, that's just me! :)

 

Gio

 

[Uccmal]

I vote for take the new opportunity.  You never know where things lead.  I think it would be exciting to spend time getting paid to study the economics of various countries.  Maybe you could even negotiate some real life visits. 

 

In all my jobs except one, I was involved in working as a consultant/contractor or other capacity where I deal with industrial processes.  This is priceless to my investing.  I have probably been involved with a thousand different organizations over the years, in a totally non financial capacity.

 

I have a very macro viewpoint of industry, and government as a result.  I know how things are made from start to finish, include all about the regulation along the way. 

 

Very few people in the investment business can describe how a car bumper is made, and visualize it, and map out the entire process in a few minutes on a sheet of paper. 

 

p.s. I agree with removing your picture as your avatar.  You never know.  That is why I post under uccmal still, even though I have met dozens of board members in person. 

[onyx1]

 

Due to the shallowness it is much less interesting to “analyze” countries and I expect that my working weeks will be a lot less enjoyable once I have to dedicate 1/3rd of my time to macro stuff. In addition, I fear that my re-allocation of time will significantly impact the learning opportunities on the equity side of things (my boss says it won’t, but he is trying to push the right buttons I guess).

 

I am a micro guy by nature but I do have an open mind and think it is important to broaden my horizon (and develop a “helicopter view”), I just do not think that branching out to macro investments is something that will be good for my future career. In the mid term I fear that I 1) will be significantly less happier in 6 months time and in the LT 2) wake up as a pure fixed income manager wondering where my life went... (worst worst case scenario)

 

 

 

You are over analyzing the situation and should reconsider your priorities.

 

In twenty five years in the business,  I have seen hundreds of bright young people, often from great schools, get nowhere in the finance field because they choose to "strategize" their career path instead of responding to opportunities.  I remember laughing at 25-year old Ivy League MBAs who didn't want to run financial models because they feared being pigeonholed as a "numbers guy".  They wanted focus on the "big picture".  In two years these empty suits were gone.  They go it backwards by thinking that the firm was there to serve them.

 

This new fund is a critical test for you.  Ignore the assurances from your superiors that this is your choice.  It isn't.  If you say no, you have put yourself ahead of your firm and for that there will be consequences.  Maybe not tangible way, maybe not immediately, but people will take note and it will happen. The bottom line is this:  you should take the job and work your tail off with a positive attitude to make it a success, or leave the firm. 

 

The best way to advance in your career is to gain a reputation as a "can-do" individual who will do whatever it takes for the benefit of your current boss and your firm.  Once you succeed here (and it will take many years of effort), opportunities will follow.  Lots of them.  When bosses start to fight over you and you start to get job offers outside the firm, then you are making good progress! 

[giofranchi]

What I don’t agree is taking this decision lightly. Some posts seem to suggest: you are still very young, so grab the opportunity… You never know… Something good might happen… If not, you’d be always in time to make a change…

I don’t agree. This is a strategic decision. It matters. And I have never taken a strategic decision lightly. If you want to grab the opportunity, very well then, do it! But you must think about it thoroughly. Take your time. And make sure you are at the end very confident with your choice and all the consequences it might entail. I believe this is your first duty.

 

Cheers!

 

Gio

 

[giofranchi]

You are over analyzing the situation and should reconsider your priorities.

 

In twenty five years in the business,  I have seen hundreds of bright young people, often from great schools, get nowhere in the finance field because they choose to "strategize" their career path instead of responding to opportunities.  I remember laughing at 25-year old Ivy League MBAs who didn't want to run financial models because they feared being pigeonholed as a "numbers guy".  They wanted focus on the "big picture".  In two years these empty suits were gone.  They go it backwards by thinking that the firm was there to serve them.

 

This new fund is a critical test for you.  Ignore the assurances from your superiors that this is your choice.  It isn't.  If you say no, you have put yourself ahead of your firm and for that there will be consequences.  Maybe not tangible way, maybe not immediately, but people will take note and it will happen. The bottom line is this:  you should take the job and work your tail off with a positive attitude to make it a success, or leave the firm. 

 

The best way to advance in your career is to gain a reputation as a "can-do" individual who will do whatever it takes for the benefit of your current boss and your firm.  Once you succeed here (and it will take many years of effort), opportunities will follow.  Lots of them.  When bosses start to fight over you and you start to get job offers outside the firm, then you are making good progress!

 

Well, probably my view has always been the one of the entrepreneur… Actually, I have never worked for another firm…

 

Therefore, I also understand onyx1 point of view… It’s the same one I would suggest to my employees and collaborators! ;D

 

Gio

 

[racemize]

I'm on the side of the Kraven advice here (though perhaps not so bluntly!).  If it is a move up, take it, and learn something new.  If you like equities, keep doing it for yourself!  Knowing another aspect to investing can't hurt and it isn't like corporate high yield debt isn't similar to analyzing equities.

[Edward]

This is not good advice in the least.  It's advice for people with their head in the clouds.  It's not realistic.  It's what people want to hear.  Just follow your dreams!  You can do anything!  The truth is most people can't do anything.  It's fine to follow this path so long as someone is aware that in 10 or 20 years they may have "enjoyed" what they do, but have nothing to show for it.  If you do this, have a backup plan . . . and then a backup plan for the backup plan.

No advice is any good in general without context. He is young and can make mistakes. Arguably he SHOULD make some mistakes. It's all good.

 

However, I agree with you - In order to try what I've suggested, you need at least two backup plans. I think I have at least three myself :).

 

The way I think about is that in life, you generally don't get second chances. You have a relatively short window of opportunity to "reach for the stars" and express yourself when you're young.

I don't want to be that guy who wanted to do something meaningful with his life, but passed on the opportunity.

 

The reason I started my investment company instead of working 9 to 5 is the following thought: What will I think of this decision looking back, 10 or 20 years from now? There are essentially 2 options:

 

1. If I succeed, then it's a no-brainer.

 

2. If I fail - so what? I can always find a day job in several fields of occupation I'm proficient in. A job will still be there for me.

 

But what won't always be there for me is this window of opportunity to start a business, and I know I will ask "what if" for the rest of my life if I don't have a serious go at it.

 

The important thing as has been said is to have some solid backup plan to fall back on, and be careful with executing plan A. Know when to quit.

 

THAT BEING SAID:

 

The best way to advance in your career is to gain a reputation as a "can-do" individual who will do whatever it takes for the benefit of your current boss and your firm.  Once you succeed here (and it will take many years of effort), opportunities will follow.  Lots of them.  When bosses start to fight over you and you start to get job offers outside the firm, then you are making good progress!

I fully agree that in order to succeed as an employee, you must do this. That's what bosses love and reward. And if you have a good boss, you'll enjoy it too.

[morningstar]

High yield is much more like equities than traditional fixed income, so I think you'll continue to have ample opportunities to apply the equity-type analysis you enjoy doing. I think your boss is probably right describing this as an opportunity and you would be making a mistake not to take it. I expect that this is a vote of confidence in you and even if this HY experiment is unsuccessful (a distinct possibility given how perilous 2014 looks for high yield) they will want to keep you around if you do a competent job with it.

[Kraven]

LOL.  You guys are going to cost the young man his career and his girlfriend!

 

The career advice and the girlfriend advice are being given to different people.  It's important to stay on top of these kinds of things.  I am fortunate that I am able to both guide a young person in his career and someone else in his love life at the same time.  It's not easy, but somehow I manage to do it.

[giofranchi]

However, I agree with you - In order to try what I've suggested, you need at least two backup plans. I think I have at least three myself :).

 

You really have backup plans?! To tell the truth, I have never thought about them… I tend to think: “If I fail, who else could be successful?!” ;D ;D ;D  No, seriously, I proceed one choice at a time, and simply try to make each choice the best one possible. Then, I almost never worry about the outcome. Probably, I am just a reckless fool!! ;D

 

Gio

[Kraven]

 

Due to the shallowness it is much less interesting to “analyze” countries and I expect that my working weeks will be a lot less enjoyable once I have to dedicate 1/3rd of my time to macro stuff. In addition, I fear that my re-allocation of time will significantly impact the learning opportunities on the equity side of things (my boss says it won’t, but he is trying to push the right buttons I guess).

 

I am a micro guy by nature but I do have an open mind and think it is important to broaden my horizon (and develop a “helicopter view”), I just do not think that branching out to macro investments is something that will be good for my future career. In the mid term I fear that I 1) will be significantly less happier in 6 months time and in the LT 2) wake up as a pure fixed income manager wondering where my life went... (worst worst case scenario)

 

 

 

You are over analyzing the situation and should reconsider your priorities.

 

In twenty five years in the business,  I have seen hundreds of bright young people, often from great schools, get nowhere in the finance field because they choose to "strategize" their career path instead of responding to opportunities.  I remember laughing at 25-year old Ivy League MBAs who didn't want to run financial models because they feared being pigeonholed as a "numbers guy".  They wanted focus on the "big picture".  In two years these empty suits were gone.  They go it backwards by thinking that the firm was there to serve them.

 

This new fund is a critical test for you.  Ignore the assurances from your superiors that this is your choice.  It isn't.  If you say no, you have put yourself ahead of your firm and for that there will be consequences.  Maybe not tangible way, maybe not immediately, but people will take note and it will happen. The bottom line is this:  you should take the job and work your tail off with a positive attitude to make it a success, or leave the firm. 

 

The best way to advance in your career is to gain a reputation as a "can-do" individual who will do whatever it takes for the benefit of your current boss and your firm.  Once you succeed here (and it will take many years of effort), opportunities will follow.  Lots of them.  When bosses start to fight over you and you start to get job offers outside the firm, then you are making good progress!

 

+1.  Exactamundo

[Palantir]

You are being handed a job as a PM at age 25? That's awesome.

[ERICOPOLY]

 

Due to the shallowness it is much less interesting to “analyze” countries and I expect that my working weeks will be a lot less enjoyable once I have to dedicate 1/3rd of my time to macro stuff. In addition, I fear that my re-allocation of time will significantly impact the learning opportunities on the equity side of things (my boss says it won’t, but he is trying to push the right buttons I guess).

 

I am a micro guy by nature but I do have an open mind and think it is important to broaden my horizon (and develop a “helicopter view”), I just do not think that branching out to macro investments is something that will be good for my future career. In the mid term I fear that I 1) will be significantly less happier in 6 months time and in the LT 2) wake up as a pure fixed income manager wondering where my life went... (worst worst case scenario)

 

 

 

You are over analyzing the situation and should reconsider your priorities.

 

In twenty five years in the business,  I have seen hundreds of bright young people, often from great schools, get nowhere in the finance field because they choose to "strategize" their career path instead of responding to opportunities.  I remember laughing at 25-year old Ivy League MBAs who didn't want to run financial models because they feared being pigeonholed as a "numbers guy".  They wanted focus on the "big picture".  In two years these empty suits were gone.  They go it backwards by thinking that the firm was there to serve them.

 

This new fund is a critical test for you.  Ignore the assurances from your superiors that this is your choice.  It isn't.  If you say no, you have put yourself ahead of your firm and for that there will be consequences.  Maybe not tangible way, maybe not immediately, but people will take note and it will happen. The bottom line is this:  you should take the job and work your tail off with a positive attitude to make it a success, or leave the firm. 

 

The best way to advance in your career is to gain a reputation as a "can-do" individual who will do whatever it takes for the benefit of your current boss and your firm.  Once you succeed here (and it will take many years of effort), opportunities will follow.  Lots of them.  When bosses start to fight over you and you start to get job offers outside the firm, then you are making good progress!

 

That is basically how the world worked at Microsoft from what I can tell, so it is probably a general corporate truism of any field. 

[jay21]

I'd take it.  I think one pro you didn't mention but that might be implied is that you may have team working for you (maybe not immediately but in the near future).  If things don't work out, I would think you have a great point on you resume.

 

Also, sovereigns is a huge field.  Find something that interest you.  Maybe you don't like macro, but you will love analyzing the different term structures.  Or you will learn about sovereign defaults through Greece.  Or analyze bank NPLs, CDS pricing, etc.  If it includes agencies, you could fill a whole year learning about RMBS, and the higher yielding types like support bonds, POs, IOs, etc.

 

Also, how wide of a mandate is the HY stuff (is it only performing, can you do structured credit, CDS...?) and how much leeway do you have with the 50 - 50 split? 

 

There's plenty to do and plenty to learn, and you will be in a much better position career wise.

[SharperDingaan]

Remind yourself that flattery is a deliberate part of the pitch, & it is done for a reason; the most effective way to launch a new fund is to get the manager to put in the start-up hours for free.

 

You will be just another brand manager, selling the nth brand of soap or beer. At a P&G, or an Interbrew, we would call you a brand manager; putting lipstick on a pig does not change what it is. Brands have limited lives, and are expected to either fail or be periodically refreshed.

 

Always a good plan to have a hedge; find something that would go up in the conditions that would make your fund fail, & invest in it. Rain or shine you walk away whole, & most of the time - richer if it rains. Options 101.

 

Look around you. Most folks do not have one career, they have many; & what they do depends on the opportunities at the time. How many old brand managers does your firm have, & what do you suppose happened to those that aren't there. Options 102.

 

If you play in the crocodile pool, bring a knife; crocodile boots look very nice.

 

SD

 

[Green King]

Remind yourself that flattery is a deliberate part of the pitch, & it is done for a reason; the most effective way to launch a new fund is to get the manager to put in the start-up hours for free.

 

You will be just another brand manager, selling the nth brand of soap or beer. At a P&G, or an Interbrew, we would call you a brand manager; putting lipstick on a pig does not change what it is. Brands have limited lives, and are expected to either fail or be periodically refreshed.

 

Always a good plan to have a hedge; find something that would go up in the conditions that would make your fund fail, & invest in it. Rain or shine you walk away whole, & most of the time - richer if it rains. Options 101.

 

Look around you. Most folks do not have one career, they have many; & what they do depends on the opportunities at the time. How many old brand managers does your firm have, & what do you suppose happened to those that aren't there. Options 102.

 

If you play in the crocodile pool, bring a knife; crocodile boots look very nice.

 

SD

 

Why do you always have the nicest stuff.  :D

[zarley]

Listen to Kraven and Onyx.

[Phaceliacapital]

Remind yourself that flattery is a deliberate part of the pitch, & it is done for a reason; the most effective way to launch a new fund is to get the manager to put in the start-up hours for free.

 

Of course.

 

And Kraven, you are actually dead on, thanks for sharing your wisdom/experience. It was only when I read "you're being told" that I realized I am in fact being told to take it.

 

So yeah, in the wise words of Jimmy Wu: Do be a do’er, don’t be a don’ter.

 

Thanks for the advice guys, really appreciate it.

 

[skanjete]

It depends on whether you want to make a career in the firm.

 

If that's the case, you simply don't have much of a choice. If you refuse such a "request", you can shelve your ambitions in the firm or even more broadly the firm's industry (the world can be very small in certain circles).

 

If you don't intend to stay indefinitely with the firm or in the industry, you're free to choose. However be sure to have an alternative then.

 

[Gamecock-YT]

Listen to Kraven and Onyx.

 

x2. They're exactly right.

[CorpRaider]

Who knows?  You might become the next Dan Fuss by applying your equity style, issue by issue, business analysis to the corporate issues and later you can get some schmoe to run the government portfolio.

[rpadebet]

Listen to Kraven and Onyx.

 

x2. They're exactly right.

 

Interesting discussion. I agree too that taking Kraven's advice is the sensible thing to do. "Follow your heart" advice is theoretically the correct thing to do, but in practice you need to know where your heart is going to be in a few years time. We may think we know where it is now, but no one knows what we would like to be doing in few years. Did you know for sure that your heart will be here 10 years ago?

 

"Following opportunity" is the practical thing to do.

 

Honestly, in your specific situation both your choices are not that different. You could be a HY/macro PM now and that doesn't preclude a career as Equity PM later in life. All knowledge compounds, that includes macro knowledge as well.

 

In a corporate setting you have to assume you are "told" not asked. But since they are making it appear as if they are "asking" and wooing you, you could use the "favor" you are doing them to negotiate your way into future opportunities/incentives if you play your cards right. Like someone already mentioned, "follow the opportunity" until you get to the FU money and then you can "retire and follow your heart".