Political Posts

[Parsad]

2 hours ago, Jay Rent said:

I probably wont keep going after this on the political thread but I had a few beers.

 

You guys have serious Charles Lindbergh blood in you.    If France had thought about staying on their side of the pond 250 years ago we would all be speaking English and driving on the wrong side of the road.     

 

Read this Economist:   https://www.economist.com/leaders/2025/11/22/donald-trumps-peace-plan-would-be-bad-for-ukraine-europe-and-america.       Instead of Fox talking head propaganda.

 

The Ad hominem, misdirection attacks on Obama and Europe do not address what Trump just did to Ukraine.

 

Facts are

 

Russia has not gained any meaningful land since 2022.

 

Before January 20th,  Ukraine was holding its own against Russia with a unified NATO message led by the USA (Although clearly Europe did not go far enough in what it should do).   Only one thing changed since Jan 20th -  so history will and should place the blame on that person.   This is the date Ukraine's position weakened significantly.

 

A US president for the first time in it's 250 year history ever just told a foreign ally to surrender!   This is blatant support for Russia,  which is vastly different from not our problem and we don't want to spend anymore money (also a bad argument).

 

Arguments that we should remain on our side of the pond do not hold, as that is not what the US President is doing -  He is clearly siding with and benefiting Russia.      

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

+1!  Cheers!

[Parsad]

55 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

Ukraine is basically:

 

Guy buys a home. Moves in and gets bombarded with requests for assistance from random dude on other side of town with yard and home issues. Shrugs and says sure, I’ll a nice guy, I’ll try, but it ain’t my top priority. Gives some money. Then hears grumbling from a few neighbors about how he’s not doing enough. How he’s a cheapskate. How it’s pathetic how the previous owner did so much more. So he gives some more. Later finds out more people are getting louder, still calling him a cheapskate, slandering him, holding him to one standard while everyone else in town gets a free pass. Later guy finds out the biggest pissants actually live next door, across the street, and behind the home that needs all the assistance and haven’t offered a penny themselves.

 

 

If I’m that guy I say fuck you I’m out, it’s your problem now, have fun. And then build something extravagant on my own property. 

 

Yeah, sure...that's one way to look at it.

 

My take is guy builds a dike that keeps floodwater out of his neighbor's yards.  The dike is failing and he asks for help from his neighbors and they offer what they can, but they aren't so rich and don't have all of the equipment to repair the dike or hold it in place.  So his friend from across the ocean sends in a ton of equipment and support to fix the dike...but the friend dies.  The friend's son doesn't want to help and is ok if floodwaters come in...not his yard, who gives a shit...his Dad was his friend, not him!  In fact, his buddy is another neighbor who would benefit from floodwater hitting the other neighbors, and in particular the guy who built the dike.  So he makes a deal...I will help you, but me and my buddy get your house and land fifty-fifty.  Take it or leave it!  Cheers!

[adesigar]

Elon Musks dad never saw oppression during apartheid. 
 

Can’t make this stuff up. 

[Spekulatius]

Looks  like the peace plan is a Russian document (more or less) that is presented by the US state department.

 

 

Perhaps not a surprise, Vlad Vexler and others noted that the writing sounded like Russian phrases translated into English. So the clown show continues.

 

 

Edited November 23, 2025 by Spekulatius

[73 Reds]

13 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

So you really believe Obama funded Iran’s nuclear program? Trump cancelled  the deal in place because he doesn’t like deals unless they are his own. While not perfect,. Iran went rogue on nuclear and the few data we have would suggest that even after the latest test strike, they still have an active nuclear program right now. or why would they do this:

https://www.armscontrol.org/blog/2025-06-25/irans-nuclear-facilities-status-updates

 

 

So you don't address an immediate threat just because it may resurface in the future?  

[Dalal.Holdings]

1 hour ago, Spekulatius said:

Looks  like the peace plan is a Russian document (more or less) that is presented by the US state department.

 

 

Perhaps not a surprise, Vlad Vexler and others noted that the writing sounded like Russian phrases translated into English. So the clown show continues.

 

 

 

The thing about Trump is he doesn't mind causing chaos to advance his goals. The document certainly got the attention of the world (Ukraine, European leaders, etc) to mobilize and come up with a counter-document, did it not ? A lot of people freaked out and it forced them into a sense of urgency and now an end to the war is seriously being discussed

 

It's best not to get too riled up with Trump's moves (as was seen on social media and threads like this one) because it is liable to give you whiplash

 

Now whether Putin accepts the new terms is a big question mark, but Trump's move last week did get people moving quickly...

 

Edited November 23, 2025 by Dalal.Holdings

[cubsfan]

20 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

The thing about Trump is he doesn't mind causing chaos to advance his goals. The document certainly got the attention of the world (Ukraine, European leaders, etc) to mobilize and come up with a counter-document, did it not ? A lot of people freaked out and it forced them into a sense of urgency and now an end to the war is seriously being discussed

 

It's best not to get too riled up with Trump's moves (as was seen on social media and threads like this one) because it is liable to give you whiplash

 

Now whether Putin accepts the new terms is a big question mark, but Trump's move last week did get people moving quickly...

 

 

Bringing an end to this meat grinder is the humane thing to do.

Not much has been accomplished in the last 3 years of this war except an increase in the horrible death toll.

[Sweet]

26 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Bringing an end to this meat grinder is the humane thing to do.

Not much has been accomplished in the last 3 years of this war except an increase in the horrible death toll.

You can make those kinds of platitudes for just about war in history.

 

I’d love it to end tomorrow, but Ukraine just can’t be a sitting duck for round 3.

[cubsfan]

9 minutes ago, Sweet said:

You can make those kinds of platitudes for just about war in history.

 

I’d love it to end tomorrow, but Ukraine just can’t be a sitting duck for round 3.

 

Two questions for you @Sweet on what I see as a stalemate like Verdun:

 

1 - What has really been accomplished in the last 3 years of this war, other than massive deaths?

 

2- How will that change in the next 3 years - and who will force that change?

 

Try and be specific on #2 if you don't mind.

[Sweet]

9 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Two questions for you @Sweet on what I see as a stalemate like Verdun:

 

1 - What has really been accomplished in the last 3 years of this war, other than massive deaths?

 

2- How will that change in the next 3 years - and who will force that change?

 

Try and be specific on #2 if you don't mind.

 

1. Ukraine hasn’t been subjugated

 

2. I hope it hasn’t changed and I hope Ukraine is still free.

[cubsfan]

2 minutes ago, Sweet said:

1. Ukraine hasn’t been subjugated

 

2. I hope it hasn’t changed and I hope Ukraine is still free.

 

Good enough. We just disagree on the price to be paid. At this point, the only ones that will pay the full price is Ukrainian young men - and I don't think the outlook is very good.

 

To me, it looks like Ukraine will lose plenty of territory and more men - so they should sue for peace now.  Zelensky will end up with a nice penthouse in Paris along with some of his other buddies that have been looting the country.

[Libs]

I was surprised to find this.

 

CDN vs U.S. GDP / per capita was ~equal in ~2011/2012 at around $52,000.

 

Now we have a huge gap.

 

Canada $54,000 (as of 12/2024; barely changed in ~14 years!)

U.S. : $86,000

 

https://countryeconomy.com/countries/compare/canada/usa?sc=XE34

 

So the last decade and a half has seen a huge gap open up. 

 

Off the top of my head, I would list higher taxes and regulation holding back Canada; and the U.S. benefitting from higher productivity but also massive stimulus

(hence the US higher proportional deficits / debt -  US per capita federal debt $34,000 V Canada $22,000.)

 

What do our Canadian friends think about this? 

 

I guess that's why the unemployment rate is so much higher up north (6.9% vs 4.3% in the U.S.)

 

There would be massive unrest in the U.S. if GDP stagnated for this long. 

[Sweet]

3 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Good enough. We just disagree on the price to be paid. At this point, the only ones that will pay the full price is Ukrainian young men - and I don't think the outlook is very good.

 

To me, it looks like Ukraine will lose plenty of territory and more men - so they should sue for peace now.  Zelensky will end up with a nice penthouse in Paris along with some of his other buddies that have been looting the country.

I agree that is likely.  Russia is losing a lot too.

 

The problem with the proposed deal - so far as I can tell - is that there is no guarantee that Russia won’t just restart the war in a couple of years when it is on a much stronger footing.

 

So the idea that we are saving lives might not be true either.  Saving lives right now, potentially losing much more later.

 

If Ukraine wants to keep fighting then I think European should provide every ask for material that they want, even if the US stops.

[73 Reds]

6 minutes ago, Sweet said:

I agree that is likely.  Russia is losing a lot too.

 

The problem with the proposed deal - so far as I can tell - is that there is no guarantee that Russia won’t just restart the war in a couple of years when it is on a much stronger footing.

 

So the idea that we are saving lives might not be true either.  Saving lives right now, potentially losing much more later.

 

If Ukraine wants to keep fighting then I think European should provide every ask for material that they want, even if the US stops.

But isn't that a fatalistic view?  There is no assurance that any country will act in the best interest of the World going forward when it comes to military action but that doesn't mean we should not at least try to put a stop to needless deaths as they occur or are imminently threatened if at all possible.   Innocent Russians stand to lose a lot too; how many are fighting of their own volition?   For obvious reasons we should not be involved in attempting regime change but that doesn't mean we simply ignore the bloodshed either.  People can criticize the US all they want but I think that is what separates the US from most of the rest of the World.  Whether we succeed or not at least we make an effort.  

[LC]

The lack of historical context on display here is astounding.

 

As we are approaching American Thanksgiving, I am grateful the (then pre-) "American" colonists in 1775 had more sense than some people today. And extra grateful of the French who supported them rather than appease the English crown in the name of "saving lives"! 

Edited November 23, 2025 by LC

[73 Reds]

8 minutes ago, LC said:

The lack of historical context on display here is astounding.

 

As we are approaching American Thanksgiving, I am grateful the (then pre-) "American" colonists in 1775 had more sense than some people today. And extra grateful of the French who supported them rather than appease the English crown in the name of "saving lives"! 

Back atcha.

[LC]

Since some folks could use some education:

 

The American revolutionary war lasted eight years

Approximately 1%  of the "American" population died

 

Currently the Ukranian war has gone on three years

And the lowest estimates put the Ukranian death toll at 0.14% of the population. Highest estimates put it at 0.26% of the pre-war population.

 

But apparently the Ukranian people shouldn't be allowed to fight for their own independence, I guess because big daddy Putin and his little puppet Trump say so.

[73 Reds]

Just now, LC said:

Since some folks could use some education:

 

The American revolutionary war lasted eight years

Approximately 1%  of the "American" population died

 

Currently the Ukranian war has gone on three years

And the lowest estimates put the Ukranian death toll at 0.14% of the population. Highest estimates put it at 0.26% of the pre-war population.

 

But apparently the Ukranian people shouldn't be allowed to fight for their own independence, I guess because big daddy Putin and his little puppet Trump say so.

Oh, so less death is OK?  Some folks could use some perspective that does not include Trump.  

[Gregmal]

13 minutes ago, LC said:

The lack of historical context on display here is astounding.

 

As we are approaching American Thanksgiving, I am grateful the (then pre-) "American" colonists in 1775 had more sense than some people today. And extra grateful of the French who supported them rather than appease the English crown in the name of "saving lives"! 

The French supported them purely out of political ambition and desire for influence in the New World. They were also still bitter about the 7 year war. It’s a decent comparison without context, but the same reasons that inspired their interference(or help) are the reasons the US and folks like John McCain royally fucked Ukraine and put them in this situation in the first place. All these pompous asshole EU leaders as well.

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, 73 Reds said:

But isn't that a fatalistic view?  There is no assurance that any country will act in the best interest of the World going forward when it comes to military action but that doesn't mean we should not at least try to put a stop to needless deaths as they occur or are imminently threatened if at all possible.   Innocent Russians stand to lose a lot too; how many are fighting of their own volition?   For obvious reasons we should not be involved in attempting regime change but that doesn't mean we simply ignore the bloodshed either.  People can criticize the US all they want but I think that is what separates the US from most of the rest of the World.  Whether we succeed or not at least we make an effort.  

Everything you are saying I agree with.  However what will this be, peace treaty 3?  
 

You have to understand that the Ukrainians have good reason to not trust Putin.  

 

The most worrying element that I’ve heard is the requirement of Ukraine to limit its army size.

 

Why on earth would Ukraine agree to that?

[Gregmal]

I mean 20 years ago US and Russian relations were good. What changed? Why pretty much out of nowhere around 2010-12 did we all of a sudden have to pick fights and antagonize everything Russia related? Sure there’s the stupid EU academic cover story about how Putin, despite being quite old and apparently if you listen to the MSM being on his deathbed for the past 5-7 years…still, some day, somewhere, over the rainbow, they say he will reassemble the old USSR….but the truth is that American agencies and the windbags of the elitist and academic EU think tanks basically embarked on some absurd mission to convert everyone even remotely central to their hierarchical kingdom. They absolutely lost their minds when the UK began talks of leaving them, and likely set sights on expansion via old USSR…modern day soft imperialism. Europe with the help of the US fucked Ukraine, they can fix it.

[73 Reds]

16 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Everything you are saying I agree with.  However what will this be, peace treaty 3?  
 

You have to understand that the Ukrainians have good reason to not trust Putin.  

 

The most worrying element that I’ve heard is the requirement of Ukraine to limit its army size.

 

Why on earth would Ukraine agree to that?

No one should have to intentionally weaken their defenses.  The objective should be co-existence.   Right now the mentality appears to be fight to the death.  We all know how that will turn out without reasonable intervention.  So its not as if there are a lot of good choices here.  

[Sweet]

Just now, 73 Reds said:

No one should have to intentionally weaken their defenses.  The objective should be co-existence.   Right now the mentality appears to be fight to the death.  We all know how that will turn out without reasonable intervention.  So it’s not as if there are a lot of good choices here.  

Exactly.  I don’t Ukraine hasn’t ever wanted anything other than co-existence.  If Biden and his team didn’t forewarn and help Ukraine they would have probably lost very early on.

[Sweet]

21 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

I mean 20 years ago US and Russian relations were good. What changed? Why pretty much out of nowhere around 2010-12 did we all of a sudden have to pick fights and antagonize everything Russia related? Sure there’s the stupid EU academic cover story about how Putin, despite being quite old and apparently if you listen to the MSM being on his deathbed for the past 5-7 years…still, some day, somewhere, over the rainbow, they say he will reassemble the old USSR….but the truth is that American agencies and the windbags of the elitist and academic EU think tanks basically embarked on some absurd mission to convert everyone even remotely central to their hierarchical kingdom. They absolutely lost their minds when the UK began talks of leaving them, and likely set sights on expansion via old USSR…modern day soft imperialism. Europe with the help of the US fucked Ukraine, they can fix it.

No doubt some of what you are saying is true about Europe, but some of the Putin stuff is true as well.

 

There has been quite a lot of misinformation about the extent of Western medalling and very little said of Russian medalling.

 

Part of the problem is that Russia is not really a super power anymore, something Putin cannot accept.

 

Ukraine don’t want to live under their thumb, can’t blame them really.

[73 Reds]

1 minute ago, Sweet said:

No doubt some of what you are saying is true about Europe, but some of the Putin stuff is true as well.

 

There has been quite a lot of misinformation about the extent of Western medalling and very little said of Russian medalling.

 

Part of the problem is that Russia is not really a super power anymore, something Putin cannot accept.

 

Ukraine don’t want to live under their thumb, can’t blame them really.

Of course the issue is Russia's nuclear capability.  Which is precisely the reason why we must limit others, particularly terrorist regimes, from acquiring such weapons of mass destruction.