Coronavirus

[cubsfan]

 

Also, "cubsfan" needs to be banned. He is basically just trolling at this point.

 

Well said Foreign Tuffett - if the opinions expressed don't agree with your viewpoint, I expect you prefer the echo chamber.

Pretty simple stuff - silence the opposing viewpoint and carry on.

 

[ERICOPOLY]

 

Pretty simple stuff - silence the opposing viewpoint and carry on.

 

What does that look like exactly?  Accuse the opposing view of making money while real people are suffering?

[orthopa]

Hey Orthopa, you said that when you realized that you were wrong, you'd eat crow. I don't care about you eating crow, but took that as a statement that you'll be intellectually honest enough to change your hypothesis when the evidence contradicts your view. So, I'm curious when you'll decide that your hypothesis is incorrect.

 

Quite a while ago, you seemed to believe COVID-19 would likely not be a big deal because you believed that there were already millions of cases in the USA (but almost none of it had showed up at the hospitals)? Have the exploding number of cases in New York changed your perspective yet? (Note that right now, New York state has 5% of the worldwide diagnosed COVID-19 cases, with 2,635 patients bad enough to be in hospitals, 621 in the ICU, and 114 deaths.)

 

If you haven't changed your mind yet, do you have any thoughts about evidence that would make you change your mind?

 

Contact tracing will obviously no longer work in the US. That is an opportunity the US has missed. 

 

We must start social distancing immediately, including cancelling public events, and reducing exposures to large groups.

 

Marc Lipsitch, the Harvard Epidemiologist has a thread here:

 

 

Weren't we just arguing about this in my example of extended contact at airport ? Now because he says it, its true? LOL

 

Orthopa, do you think you can slow down a bit and try to communicate a little more clearly? I think you are making some good points, but it seems your points may not be getting across clearly or that you may even be misunderstood. This post in particular makes me think that is the case.

 

I also thought your earlier point about testing the role of testing in a diagnosis is likely a good point, but was probably too hasty to get your point across. Maybe some other medical professionals could weigh in on that, especially if you're to busy to respond.

 

I dont know how much more I can slow down. I have probably posted 50 times? Trying to get some points across. Am I completely right?, of course not but I have experience FWIW. Others have graphs,  twitter links, and or political angles which are underwhelming at best sometimes.

 

Again points that I have made that I believe are true FWIW (we are allowed an opinion right?)

 

1. The virus has been here for months, likely early January and has been seen/dealt with in the health system under other diagnoses for months.

2. The first test confirmed, was not the first test here.

3. There was nothing the government or any nation in the world could do to stop the initial spread

4. Older people and those most at risk will die. There is no cure, and viruses kill people. Elderly people should take appropriate precautions.

5. Because the virus has been here for months testing is borderline useless and your going to chase your tail the entire time. This is due to numerous contacts and the extended incubation period.

6. If you don't test everyone the virus will continue to spread quickly, again via asymptomatic people and kids. Best policy is to test everyone, but its impossible and too late.

7. Best way to prevent spread is standard precautions! This includes isolation, hand washing, yada, yada. NOT TESTING.

8. If a patient test positive and there has been minimal definite contacts say someone who is home bound with a handful of contacts testing may make sense but these are limited cases.

9. The the spring/summer will bring a reprieve in new cases and hopefully that was well as the fact that nearly everyone will have been exposed or infected this will limit virgin hosts.

10. A vaccine is useless if the virus mutates significantly.

11. The number of cases are vastly under reported, probably numbering in the millions by now in the US.

12. If someone you know or yourself had a cold/URI/flu symptoms that tested negative, and was "way worse" then the common cold there was very high chance it is/was the corona virus.

13. Every case of the virus is not severe, so don't model it as such. Corona virus dx does not = ICU and ventilator.

14. I believe eventually those in charge medically will come to the conclusion that its inevitable that this becomes a pandemic with everyone getting infected in time.

15. If your human, you will get the virus in your lifetime. Nothing you can do.

16. Flattening the curve makes sense but I question when the curve will bump as the virus again likely has been here for months.

 

 

Did I misinterpret or misrepresent anything here?

 

I think you have an excellent understanding of this at this point, and apparently able to put it down on paper better then me.

 

Thanks.  Just trying to make sure I fully understand the various perspectives.  Again, apologies again for the comment before re: the profession you've chosen.  It meant no disrepect.

 

I do want to ask you - if you were to take a step back and think about your position, where could you be wrong?

 

I could be wrong by how much of a hit this will be to the ICU/need for respirator, ie breakdown of health system. I can only think back to working during the H1N1 outbreak and the 17-18 flu season and that volume load which was ~15 million cases if I recall correctly. The system was stretched, but did not collapse, My opinion is the virus has been here for 6 weeks/months and cases are vastly under reported. So in my mind we are currently in an environment of where many think we will be from documented patient 1 say 4-6 weeks from now, already!  Its in this mind frame I have a hard time rectifying a wickedly high death rate and medical system collapse if we are operating in this environment currently.

 

I certainly could be wrong on this, I hope I'm right of course. We will see. The fact of the matter is if the cases are severely under estimated and we are handling it now maybe we are further along on the curve then we think, and handling it fine.

 

I guess I will know for sure if I was wrong if/when the healthcare system collapses. I could get lucky as my predictions above (not too bad for 2 weeks ago huh?) were before the nationwide stay home theme and ramp up in healthcare preparedness across the country. I believe a lot of our back and forth at the time was about Washington state? and the deaths there? They are at 110 so I guess it remains to be seen if that continues to exponentially increase with time. NYC will be the test as that is where the healthcare system could break and wasnt even close at the time of our discussions.

 

FWIW I still think there is no doubt millions had been infected then, and even more so now. Dont forget the asymptomatic rate is 86% per Chinese data. For now its a point that is a waste of time to argue as until further means for testing comes out we will never know. What will really tell us for sure will be serologic testing which I hope for the economy's sake happens very soon as that would be a means for every group to tell if they have been infected and are immune. That could be a very quick send away lab and could be done on all asymptomatic people and in any doctors office, ER, etc.

 

FWIW the healthcare system is holding up good(NYC to be determined still), and has been since we talked. Its been ~2 weeks since we went back and forth and we are up to 698 deaths. Since that time ~26k give or take have died from heart disease so heart disease may still be the winner this year. Will have to see. And yes they are real living people so them dying counts too, even though it doesn't "spread". And yes those people that live have life long lung and heart issues, CHF, etc. I didn't know we had such empathetic people on the board!

 

I do find it very interesting how much everyone who is not medical trained does seem to care about people dying, ICU beds, ethical hard decisions, medicine etc as this what those in the medical field deal with every day. My hope is once this is over there is just as much passionate discussion about diabetes, HTN, heart disease etc. With the amount of outpouring and compassion I can certainly envision many on the board spending time at nursing homes, cardiac rehab facilities, and community health centers going forward. That will be great as opposed to a passing interest due to self preservation. 

 

 

 

[cubsfan]

 

Also, "cubsfan" needs to be banned. He is basically just trolling at this point.

 

Well said Foreign Tuffett - if the opinions expressed don't agree with your viewpoint, I expect you prefer the echo chamber.

Pretty simple stuff - silence the opposing viewpoint and carry on.

 

What does that look like exactly?  Accuse the opposing view of making money while real people are suffering?

 

Sure, accuse the President of risking 500,000 American lives, just so he can get re-elected. That's what it looks like.

 

Then you don't need to hear any opposing opinion.

 

 

[ERICOPOLY]

 

Also, "cubsfan" needs to be banned. He is basically just trolling at this point.

 

Well said Foreign Tuffett - if the opinions expressed don't agree with your viewpoint, I expect you prefer the echo chamber.

Pretty simple stuff - silence the opposing viewpoint and carry on.

 

What does that look like exactly?  Accuse the opposing view of making money while real people are suffering?

 

Sure, accuse the President of risking 500,000 American lives, just so he can get re-elected. That's what it looks like.

 

Then you don't need to hear any opposing opinion.

 

 

 

This:

 

The perfect armchair quarterback situation, while you make money and people's lives are destroyed.

 

[Liberty]

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/health/coronavirus-second-wave-surge-hong-kong-china-uk-cases-a9420876.html

[cubsfan]

 

Also, "cubsfan" needs to be banned. He is basically just trolling at this point.

 

Well said Foreign Tuffett - if the opinions expressed don't agree with your viewpoint, I expect you prefer the echo chamber.

Pretty simple stuff - silence the opposing viewpoint and carry on.

 

What does that look like exactly?  Accuse the opposing view of making money while real people are suffering?

 

Sure, accuse the President of risking 500,000 American lives, just so he can get re-elected. That's what it looks like.

 

Then you don't need to hear any opposing opinion.

 

 

 

This:

 

The perfect armchair quarterback situation, while you make money and people's lives are destroyed.

 

I didn't know I wasn't allowed to express my opinion on disgusting comments like this - obviously that's not allowed - right Eric?

Am I not allowed to defend the President?

 

 

I am pretty sure if it’s the choice is between his re-election and 500k dead, I know what he is going to pick.

[ERICOPOLY]

 

Also, "cubsfan" needs to be banned. He is basically just trolling at this point.

 

Well said Foreign Tuffett - if the opinions expressed don't agree with your viewpoint, I expect you prefer the echo chamber.

Pretty simple stuff - silence the opposing viewpoint and carry on.

 

What does that look like exactly?  Accuse the opposing view of making money while real people are suffering?

 

Sure, accuse the President of risking 500,000 American lives, just so he can get re-elected. That's what it looks like.

 

Then you don't need to hear any opposing opinion.

 

 

 

This:

 

The perfect armchair quarterback situation, while you make money and people's lives are destroyed.

 

I didn't know I wasn't allowed to express my opinion on disgusting comments like this - obviously that's not allowed - right Eric?

Am I not allowed to defend the President?

 

 

I am pretty sure if it’s the choice is between his re-election and 500k dead, I know what he is going to pick.

 

Huh?  How does my comment have to do with your defending the President?

 

I quoted what you wrote beforehand about (and to me) an accusation of making money while people are suffering.  Later you described such an attack as a strategy so you don't have to hear an opposing opinion.  First you did it, then you explained your strategy... but the funny part is you did all of that after bitching that Foreign Tuffet did so to you.

[cubsfan]

 

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans

to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

 

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

 

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

 

 

[ERICOPOLY]

Now he wants packed churches in a few weeks:

 

“Wouldn’t it be great to have all of the churches full?" Trump said in a subsequent interview. “You’ll have packed churches all over our country.”

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus-trump-restrictions-reopen-20200324-mgnfnxy3xvgpzapcynflxouaga-story.html

[Spekulatius]

Now he wants packed churches in a few weeks:

 

“Wouldn’t it be great to have all of the churches full?" Trump said in a subsequent interview. “You’ll have packed churches all over our country.”

 

https://www.chicagotribune.com/coronavirus/ct-nw-coronavirus-trump-restrictions-reopen-20200324-mgnfnxy3xvgpzapcynflxouaga-story.html

 

A lot of people angling for Darwin awards here.

[RichardGibbons]

I guess I will know for sure if I was wrong if/when the healthcare system collapses. I could get lucky as my predictions above (not too bad for 2 weeks ago huh?) were before the nationwide stay home theme and ramp up in healthcare preparedness across the country. I believe a lot of our back and forth at the time was about Washington state? and the deaths there? They are at 110 so I guess it remains to be seen if that continues to exponentially increase with time. NYC will be the test as that is where the healthcare system could break and wasnt even close at the time of our discussions.

 

FWIW I still think there is no doubt millions had been infected then, and even more so now. Dont forget the asymptomatic rate is 86% per Chinese data. For now its a point that is a waste of time to argue as until further means for testing comes out we will never know. What will really tell us for sure will be serologic testing which I hope for the economy's sake happens very soon as that would be a means for every group to tell if they have been infected and are immune. That could be a very quick send away lab and could be done on all asymptomatic people and in any doctors office, ER, etc.

 

FWIW the healthcare system is holding up good(NYC to be determined still), and has been since we talked. Its been ~2 weeks since we went back and forth and we are up to 698 deaths. Since that time ~26k give or take have died from heart disease so heart disease may still be the winner this year. Will have to see. And yes they are real living people so them dying counts too, even though it doesn't "spread". And yes those people that live have life long lung and heart issues, CHF, etc. I didn't know we had such empathetic people on the board!

 

I do find it very interesting how much everyone who is not medical trained does seem to care about people dying, ICU beds, ethical hard decisions, medicine etc as this what those in the medical field deal with every day. My hope is once this is over there is just as much passionate discussion about diabetes, HTN, heart disease etc. With the amount of outpouring and compassion I can certainly envision many on the board spending time at nursing homes, cardiac rehab facilities, and community health centers going forward. That will be great as opposed to a passing interest due to self preservation.

 

Thanks for your honest response--I really do appreciate it when people are willing to act with intellectual honesty.  So much of that is missing in the world today.

 

That said, your 86% asymptomatic rate isn't credible. The most credible number I've read is ~30% (though at this point, I'd be delighted if it were 86%. Asymptomatic people are bad early in a pandemic, and good when it's out of control.)

 

In any case, we'll have to keep watching New York to see when they get overloaded.  New York's normal capacity is about 60K hospital beds and 3000 ICU beds.  So, I'll assume that if we go over, say, 70k simultaneous hospitalized COVID-19 patients or 3300 simultaneous COVID-19 ICU patients, that means that you'll have recognized that "this isn't a big deal, there are already hundreds of thousands if not millions infected and there's been no problems" analysis was incorrect.

 

It's nice to have goal posts planted firmly in the ground, and clearly if COVID-19 patients alone--without even taking into account people in the hospital for other reasons--exceed hospital capacity, then it was a pretty big deal.

 

All that said, I'm pretty surprised that you don't understand why people would care much more about an epidemic than heart disease deaths.

[cwericb]

“Am I not allowed to defend the President?”

 

Remember when Trump said he could go out and shoot someone on 5th Ave and not lose a supporter? That’s Cubs - a diehard member of the Trump cult. For Cubs, Trump can do no wrong and everyone is against him.

 

On the Political Board Cubs has defended every single goofy move Trump has made - and there has been soooo many.

 

It was only a matter of time before some sort of serious situation would test the President’s judgement and expose him for the incompetent buffoon that he is.

 

Neither Cubs or the President understand that people’s lives are far more important than a temporary economic disaster.

 

Sorry Cubs, but your president is, and has been mentally ill and the examples are too numerous to list.

 

The fact that Trump believes everything is going to be just honky-dory in a few weeks shows just how delusional he is. He is so far removed from reality that he is suggesting that restrictions should be EASED while the reality that the number of US diagnosed cases has increased in the last 24 hours.

 

But of course this “very stable genius” knows more than the generals, the doctors, and - well - I guess everyone.

 

 

[no_free_lunch]

Canada is talking about a gradual lift of the quarantine. Same thing as trump is saying but we will be more cautious about it.  I am assuming that the US will do a gradual return to work, at a state level.  If so, it won't be the economic catastrophe people want to believe.  So the US goes from $20T debt to say $23T as a result of covid stimulus. Not sustainable long term but not the apocalypse tomorrow either.

 

"The hope is that we can slowly lift these measures, rather than have them completely lifted, and we can control the rebound of the virus such that it does not cause a situation where we overwhelm our health-care system and negate everything that we've done for the past few months."

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-second-wave-1.5507522

 

[cubsfan]

Canada is talking about a gradual lift of the quarantine. Same thing as trump is saying but we will be more cautious about it.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-second-wave-1.5507522

 

That can't possibly be the right move if Trump is considering it too.

 

I thought that debate was settled here.

[dwy000]

 

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans

to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

 

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

 

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

 

2 points on this:

 

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

 

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

[cubsfan]

 

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans

to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

 

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

 

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

 

2 points on this:

 

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

 

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

 

Yeah sure - tell me about it - and go listen to the debates - it's all on tape. In the end, believe what you want to.

[no_free_lunch]

The fact that Trump believes everything is going to be just honky-dory in a few weeks shows just how delusional he is. He is so far removed from reality that he is suggesting that restrictions should be EASED while the reality that the number of US diagnosed cases has increased in the last 24 hours.

 

But of course this “very stable genius” knows more than the generals, the doctors, and - well - I guess everyone.

 

Sweden is also staying open.  Also Japan, Taiwan, South Korea.  Don't panic.

 

While most of Europe is firmly locked down in a bid to curb the spread of COVID-19, Sweden is taking a softer line, keeping primary schools, restaurants and bars open and even encouraging people to go outside for a nip of air.

 

This stands in stark contrast to the urgent tone elsewhere and has sparked heated debate whether Sweden is really doing the right thing.

 

"We cannot allow the human desperation in Wuhan and Bergamo to be repeated in Sweden. That would be a gamble that violates society's most fundamental principle: that every person has an inherent value," the editor-in-chief of Sweden's biggest newspaper, Dagens Nyheter, wrote on Sunday, calling for either tougher measures or more widespread coronavirus testing.

 

https://news.yahoo.com/lockdown-wait-sweden-goes-own-way-003057482.html

[ERICOPOLY]

 

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans

to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

 

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

 

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

 

2 points on this:

 

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

 

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

 

Yeah sure - tell me about it - and go listen to the debates - it's all on tape. In the end, believe what you want to.

 

Republicans have frequently pointed to former vice president Joe Biden’s comments on the day the restrictions were announced, in which he referenced Trump’s “record of hysteria and xenophobia.” But Biden wasn’t directly talking about the China restrictions, as FactCheck.org has reported.

 

And in fact, Biden was speaking around the same time that Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar first announced the restrictions. When Biden’s event in Iowa began just after 4 p.m. Eastern time, Azar made the announcement at a briefing that started at 3:42 p.m. It’s not even clear Biden knew it had been announced.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/02/trumps-airing-grievances-coronavirus-is-overcooked/

 

 

The timeline of that day is also important when it comes to Trump’s claim that this was a bold step. The travel restrictions actually came after the three major carriers who have service to China — American Airlines, Delta and United — had already announced earlier in the day that they would halt that service. As USA Today noted at the time, the move by the airlines “all but rendered White House action moot.” The White House had floated potential travel restrictions earlier in the week, but this was something the airlines jumped on first.

[EliG]

Canada is talking about a gradual lift of the quarantine. Same thing as trump is saying but we will be more cautious about it. I am assuming that the US will do a gradual return to work, at a state level.  If so, it won't be the economic catastrophe people want to believe.  So the US goes from $20T debt to say $23T as a result of covid stimulus. Not sustainable long term but not the apocalypse tomorrow either.

 

"The hope is that we can slowly lift these measures, rather than have them completely lifted, and we can control the rebound of the virus such that it does not cause a situation where we overwhelm our health-care system and negate everything that we've done for the past few months."

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/health/canada-covid-19-second-wave-1.5507522

 

The bolded part is political spin. You misrepresented Canadian policies to defend Trump.

 

The article you linked is one CBC reporter talking to a couple of experts. They discussed -- hypothetically -- what may happen way down the line. These experts are not talking in any official capacity. They don't represent Canada. They are not in charge of anything.

 

If you listen to our politicians who are actually in charge, the message is very different from what Trump is saying. Federal health minister has recently threatened to tighten the screws (because many Canadians are not complying with what's been asked). Provinces are imposing more restrictions, e.g. Ontario and Quebec closed all non-essential businesses just this week. There is zero happy talk about being back in business by Easter.

 

 

[samwise]

Can’t we move the political discussion somewhere else?

 

Meanwhile it’s true that eventually we’ll have to relax restrictions in every country, but this article estimates 7 weeks when it’s a very strict lockdown. And then an “open society” like South Korea, with lots of testing, contact tracing (forget your privacy) , isolation of cases, no large crowds, face masks etc. That’s not exactly a return to normal. This article posted by Liberty is still the best description I’ve seen.

 

If you have those controls in the first place, you never have to go through a lockdown, hopefully. But there is only 90 days(!) worth of data on this virus, so there is huge uncertainty around any of these statements.

 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

[cubsfan]

 

I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban.  Anyone. 

 

You're kidding right - did you watch the democratic presidential debates? - Joe Biden AND Bernie Sanders said those bans

to China and Europe were xenophobic, if not racist - and they WOULD not have imposed them. Go back and listen.

 

https://www.redstate.com/jeffc/2020/03/14/biden-insists-on-opposing-coronavirus-travel-ban-despite-the-advice-of-experts/

 

https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/19/neither-biden-nor-sanders-would-have-saved-american-lives-with-travel-bans-like-trump-did/

 

https://nationalfile.com/flashback-biden-opposed-trumps-chinese-coronavirus-travel-ban-as-xenophobia/

 

https://nypost.com/2020/03/01/criticisms-of-trumps-coronavirus-response-are-sickening-devine/

 

2 points on this:

 

1.  None of the articles you included have Biden or Sanders criticizing the travel ban.  The very, very politicized articles twist words to imply that is the case.  They called Trump xenophobic but didn't say anything about the travel ban being wrong or inappropriate.

 

2.  Just the publications you have used to try and prove the point....well kinda proves all the points being made here.  You are so caught up in Trump-fever and reinforcing views that you have lost all capability to think logically for yourself. At least the people here can admit fault in democrats and hold independent views of their own.  Not the case on your end.

 

Yeah sure - tell me about it - and go listen to the debates - it's all on tape. In the end, believe what you want to.

 

Republicans have frequently pointed to former vice president Joe Biden’s comments on the day the restrictions were announced, in which he referenced Trump’s “record of hysteria and xenophobia.” But Biden wasn’t directly talking about the China restrictions, as FactCheck.org has reported.

 

And in fact, Biden was speaking around the same time that Health and Human Services Secretary Alex Azar first announced the restrictions. When Biden’s event in Iowa began just after 4 p.m. Eastern time, Azar made the announcement at a briefing that started at 3:42 p.m. It’s not even clear Biden knew it had been announced.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2020/03/02/trumps-airing-grievances-coronavirus-is-overcooked/

 

 

The timeline of that day is also important when it comes to Trump’s claim that this was a bold step. The travel restrictions actually came after the three major carriers who have service to China — American Airlines, Delta and United — had already announced earlier in the day that they would halt that service. As USA Today noted at the time, the move by the airlines “all but rendered White House action moot.” The White House had floated potential travel restrictions earlier in the week, but this was something the airlines jumped on first.

 

Uh, Biden is right here on tape discussing the ban...in the video - January 31st,

 

Then crap like this..

 

On Thursday, idiot Biden tweeted:

 

“A wall will not stop the coronavirus. Banning all travel from Europe — or any other part of the world — will not stop it. This disease could impact every nation and any person on the planet — and we need a plan to combat it.”

[no_free_lunch]

Can’t we move the political discussion somewhere else?

 

Meanwhile it’s true that eventually we’ll have to relax restrictions in every country, but this article estimates 7 weeks when it’s a very strict lockdown. And then an “open society” like South Korea, with lots of testing, contact tracing (forget your privacy) , isolation of cases, no large crowds, face masks etc. That’s not exactly a return to normal. This article posted by Liberty is still the best description I’ve seen.

 

If you have those controls in the first place, you never have to go through a lockdown, hopefully. But there is only 90 days(!) worth of data on this virus, so there is huge uncertainty around any of these statements.

 

https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56

 

There won't be a return to normal but as long as people are able to work the risk to the economy is negligible.

[no_free_lunch]

Eli, it shows that the concepts trump is pushing are not so far fetched. I agree it will take longer than he says, he's trying to soothe investors to some extent.  I think Canada risks being too conservative and damaging the economy. Remember that there is a true cost in lives when you don't have the funds to pay for your health care.

[samwise]

Eli, it shows that the concepts trump is pushing are not so far fetched. I agree it will take longer than he says, he's trying to soothe investors to some extent.  I think Canada risks being too conservative and damaging the economy. Remember that there is a true cost in lives when you don't have the funds to pay for your health care.

Isn’t that healthcare risk unique to the USA among most developed nations. Most OECD have socialized healthcare. So yes the USA may have to calculate its costs differently than other countries.