Investor20 Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 May be people here dont understand. Trump won because many stopped believing the "experts" and "pundits" Here is an example, after telling people to Clean and disinfect, not to wear masks and stay home. They are telling may be it doesn't spread that much by surfaces, masks are important, Covid spreads more inside than outside. https://www.yahoo.com/lifestyle/cdc-coronavirus-mainly-spreads-through-persontoperson-contact-and-does-not-spread-easily-on-contaminated-surfaces-153317029.html CDC: Coronavirus mainly spreads through person-to-person contact and 'does not spread easily' on contaminated surfaces “Based on the epidemiology, we know that the main way this virus is infecting people is from direct contact with other infected people,” Adalja says. “Contaminated surfaces play some role, but it’s likely much smaller.” It also makes sense, too, he says: “This is a respiratory virus, and respiratory viruses largely spread through breathing in infected respiratory droplets.” Watkins agrees. “It might be possible to become infected after touching a surface that has the virus, then touching one's face,” he says. “That is why handwashing and avoiding touching one's face are important. However, this isn't the main way the virus is spread.” So let me ask few questions to the "experts" and "pundits" here who think everyone who disagrees with them are imbeciles and idiots. Do people touch each other more inside or outside? Do people breath other peoples exhale inside or outside? Do shelter in place keep you inside or outside?
samwise Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Brazil is actually looking quite similar to the US now. Anti-lockdown protests, supported by the president. Health ministers have resigned. None of that in the US so far. https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/18/world/brazil-jair-bolsonaro-supporters-coronavirus/#.XsSXX8pE2hA Other similar places, people are defying the Venezuela lockdown because of economic hardship. In that country this means actually going hungry, instead of missing the rent check. https://www.bnnbloomberg.ca/venezuelans-defy-lockdown-and-growing-epidemic-to-return-to-work-1.1438393
RichardGibbons Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 So let me ask few questions to the "experts" and "pundits" here who think everyone who disagrees with them are imbeciles and idiots. Do people touch each other more inside or outside? Do people breath other peoples exhale inside or outside? Do shelter in place keep you inside or outside? Let me ask Investor20 a few questions: Can people get COVID-19 when they never have contact with someone who is infected? If you are in your house with uninfected people, will the virus magically teleport through the walls into your bloodstream? Do you really believe this ridiculous argument you keep making and everyone keeps ignoring because it's so stupid? I mean, I get it. You really want the world to reopen. Sure, it's better being outside with someone who is infected than being inside with someone who is infected. But it's better not coming into contact with infected people at all.
Investor20 Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 So let me ask few questions to the "experts" and "pundits" here who think everyone who disagrees with them are imbeciles and idiots. Do people touch each other more inside or outside? Do people breath other peoples exhale inside or outside? Do shelter in place keep you inside or outside? Let me ask Investor20 a few questions: Can people get COVID-19 when they never have contact with someone who is infected? If you are in your house with uninfected people, will the virus magically teleport through the walls into your bloodstream? Do you really believe this ridiculous argument you keep making and everyone keeps ignoring because it's so stupid? I mean, I get it. You really want the world to reopen. Sure, it's better being outside with someone who is infected than being inside with someone who is infected. But it's better not coming into contact with infected people at all. Richard, its impossible to have zero interaction even under strictest shelter in place. And more closer interaction for longer periods increases the chance of transmission. Richard, I believe there are several data points IMO support my stand. NYC showed people staying home are much more hospitalized than people such as health care workers, police, public transport workers. Cuomo called that data "shocking". https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/06/ny-gov-cuomo-says-its-shocking-most-new-coronavirus-hospitalizations-are-people-staying-home.html Cuomo says it’s ‘shocking’ most new coronavirus hospitalizations are people who had been staying home In this survey Staying Home 66%, Nursing home 18%, Assisted Living 4%. Gives total 88% who are indoors who are hospitalized for Covid. https://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/coronavirus/cuomo-ny-frontline-workers-test-positive-for-covid-antibodies-at-lower-rate-than-rest-of-state/2415595/ NY Frontline Workers Test Positive for Antibodies at Lower Rates Than Rest of State The 3.1 percent of NYSP that tested positive is far lower when compared to the 12.3 percent of the general population of upstate New York who tested positive for antibodies. In Japan they had no shelter in place and only masks, cleaning hands and disinfecting and they have very low Covid deaths. https://www.nippon.com/en/news/ntv20200430002/ Less than 30 percent of those surveyed in Japan say they work remotely. The poll conducted jointly by the country’s Labor Ministry and the “LINE” social messaging app also showed that in many prefectures less than 5 percent work from home.
ERICOPOLY Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 In Japan they had no shelter in place and only masks, cleaning hands and disinfecting and they have very low Covid deaths. I also thought it was very interesting what Cuomo said. Why is the administration only ordering proper masks to be produced for front-line workers? Trump is visiting one such plant this Friday, and Trump had to be told that he must wear a mask (and this no doubt is because Pence showed up at Mayo without one, and claimed he didn't know about their mask requirement).
Liberty Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/19/mps-hear-why-hong-kong-had-no-covid-19-care-home-deaths Care home deaths, Hong Kong 0 Care home deaths, Singapore: 0 Care home deaths, South Korea: 0 Care home deaths, UK: 22,000 We should just copy what these countries do. No need to reinvent the wheel.
Investor20 Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 In Japan they had no shelter in place and only masks, cleaning hands and disinfecting and they have very low Covid deaths. I also thought it was very interesting what Cuomo said. Why is the administration only ordering proper masks to be produced for front-line workers? Trump is visiting one such plant this Friday, and Trump had to be told that he must wear a mask (and this no doubt is because Pence showed up at Mayo without one, and claimed he didn't know about their mask requirement). The reason I hear from watching interviews like this which I posted in this thread before is SARS, MERS effected SE asian countries or Middle east but did not come to western countries. May be there is more travel today or may be Covid is more infective. But what ever it is, these countries learnt and made preprations to have masks and technology to make testing kits. However, western countries were not ready. That is the explanation given around 17 minutes onwards for few minutes by Dr. Kim Woo-joo. He claims Korea has low infection because of washing hands and masks. And then around 19 minutes he explains why Korea was ready for testing. They are trying now to make masks in US. But it is not the same as being ready when it comes. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/04/24/we-went-inside-the-gm-plant-making-coronavirus-face-masks-heres-what-it-looked-like.html We went inside the GM plant making coronavirus face masks. Here’s what it looked like
Liberty Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Florida allegedly manipulating COVID data. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2020/05/19/florida-covid-19-coronavirus-data-researcher-out-state-reopens/5218897002/ So that's Georgia and Florida this week... Chances there's just two cockroaches in the kitchen?
cubsfan Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 "Can we stop wasting time on someone who can't reason his way out of a paper bag and get back to COVID19." It is hard to ignore the Trump Troll, when he makes so many misinformed statements and ignores all sense and logic. Unfortunately, Trump and his actions has such a major impact on what will happen with with COVID 19 it is hard to separate the two subjects. Yea, tell me about it - the guy who moves from one anti-Trump hoax to the next, never getting it right. You'd rather defeat Trump than the corona virus.
Liberty Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 In Japan they had no shelter in place and only masks, cleaning hands and disinfecting and they have very low Covid deaths. I also thought it was very interesting what Cuomo said. Why is the administration only ordering proper masks to be produced for front-line workers? Trump is visiting one such plant this Friday, and Trump had to be told that he must wear a mask (and this no doubt is because Pence showed up at Mayo without one, and claimed he didn't know about their mask requirement). What people who talk about places without lockdown fail to understand is that that boat had sailed for the US. If you had strict hygiene and masks and people who understood things very early on, did good contact tracing, R0 will stay low enough that you can contain things. But if you don't and it just runs wild and exponentially double and double and double for a while, you are past the point where you can compare yourself to Japan or South Korea or Taiwan or New Zealand or whatever. You don't get to just decide you want these countries' results without having done what they did.
Cigarbutt Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Cross-country comparisons can be useful but the point about previous paths taken during an exponential phase is relevant. Social "restraints" measures have decreased the spread and lifting those measures will cause various levels of resurgence activity. The trade-off lies between the "costs" of the containment measures and the "costs" of re-opening the economy. The following two are useful inputs (see what happened before and try to see what could guide policies going forward): https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2766229?utm_source=For_The_Media&utm_medium=referral&utm_campaign=ftm_links&utm_term=051820 https://www.healthaffairs.org/doi/pdf/10.1377/hlthaff.2020.00608 The first study (when analyzed and related death rates are obtained and compared) suggests a relatively small positive impact of the differential measures taken between Iowa and Illinois. The second study shows the potential of limiting exponential morbidity and mortality when applied effectively and early. Both studies have significant limitations and have observational qualities. As numerous other studies show, one of the risks is extrapolating conclusions from limited data and interpreting causal effects when, in fact, the findings are simply correlations. This is a frequent flaw now with limited peer reviews and people coming up with "explanations" or risk factors for various clinical findings which are simply markers and not meaningful variables to alter. Pressures will keep building up for opening (for both valid and non-valid reasons) and it may be best to try to optimize the process going forward. To assess the validity and effectiveness, policy and measures depend on context. As an analogy, the application of QE (there he goes again) makes a lot of sense from a liquidit standpoint. However, recognizing the significant known and unknown consequences including asset price inflation and high leverage from the chronic application of such acute measures when asset prices and leverage were high to start with simply introduces inter-temporal imbalances that simply take longer to correct, at some point. To tie the analogy to COVID-19, trying to maintain radical lockdown or similar measures makes little sense once the spread has occurred. This is the kick the can down the road era. Healing will eventually happen.
LC Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Purple state problems: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/waffle-house-shooter-was-told-wear-mask-colorado-police-say-n1210951
ERICOPOLY Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Purple state problems: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/waffle-house-shooter-was-told-wear-mask-colorado-police-say-n1210951 Life comes before Liberty in the Constitution. Selfish assholes won’t wear a mask to save lives of others. I see it in my own county. Few are wearing masks in a busy store and these guys are the ones screaming the loudest about the California governors orders — they fail to see that they are driving R0 higher and freedom further away.
Viking Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 In Japan they had no shelter in place and only masks, cleaning hands and disinfecting and they have very low Covid deaths. I also thought it was very interesting what Cuomo said. Why is the administration only ordering proper masks to be produced for front-line workers? Trump is visiting one such plant this Friday, and Trump had to be told that he must wear a mask (and this no doubt is because Pence showed up at Mayo without one, and claimed he didn't know about their mask requirement). What people who talk about places without lockdown fail to understand is that that boat had sailed for the US. If you had strict hygiene and masks and people who understood things very early on, did good contact tracing, R0 will stay low enough that you can contain things. But if you don't and it just runs wild and exponentially double and double and double for a while, you are past the point where you can compare yourself to Japan or South Korea or Taiwan or New Zealand or whatever. You don't get to just decide you want these countries' results without having done what they did. I think people mis-understand what Japan has done to deal with the virus. They issued state of emergency that shut down large swaths of their economy. People stayed at home (they were asked to do things not required... different culture?). When you look at the economic numbers you can see the impact the virus had on individual countries. Japan's economy falls into recession in Q1 - https://www.marketwatch.com/story/japans-economy-falls-into-recession-in-q1-2020-05-17 TOKYO -- Japan's economy fell into a recession by one common definition in the first quarter of 2020, with worse expected in the current quarter. The world's third-largest economy after the U.S. and China shrank an annualized 3.4% in the January-March period, following a 7.3% contraction in the previous quarter when the national sales tax rose to 10% from 8%. Two straight quarters of contraction is one definition of a recession. ...The coronavirus pandemic pushed down spending by households and companies and kept tourists away. Private consumption fell 0.7% on quarter as people refrained from leisure and dining out to avoid infection. Capital expenditures by companies dropped 0.5%. Economists expect that the economy shrank at an annualized pace of 20% or more in the current quarter. Prime Minister Shinzo Abe declared a national state of emergency in April, which led many stores and restaurants to close. Most foreign visitors are barred from entering the country` and domestic travel has mostly stopped. Last week Mr. Abe lifted the state of emergency in 39 of 47 prefectures. It still applies in Tokyo and Osaka but is expected to end nationwide in the next week or two. "Sharp declines in private consumption, housing investment and capital spending are inevitable after April due to the state of emergency and the subsequent request for closing businesses," said Taro Saito, an economist at NLI Research Institute.
Liberty Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Purple state problems: https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/waffle-house-shooter-was-told-wear-mask-colorado-police-say-n1210951 Life comes before Liberty in the Constitution. Selfish assholes won’t wear a mask to save lives of others. I see it in my own county. Few are wearing masks in a busy store and these guys are the ones screaming the loudest about the California governors orders — they fail to see that they are driving R0 higher and freedom further away. People generally aren't bad, they tend to have good intentions. But when there's as much disinformation and mismanagement and confusing communications about the issue as in the US, and when a health issue gets politicized, people end up believing what they're told (by their tribe, now that it's political) and act accordingly. It was the most obvious thing in that world that a crisis like this would unite everybody and give them common cause and shared self-interest, but this was squandered in the US.
Viking Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 And what is Japan doing with schools? Full lock down since early March. Doesn’t look to me like they are ‘just wearing masks...’ Japanese government prods schools to partially reopen by grade as pandemic eases (May 2 article) https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2020/05/02/national/japan-schools-partial-reopening-coronavirus/#.XsVSzi8iehA The education ministry has presented the option of schools reopening for some grades only amid the ongoing coronavirus pandemic, with priority given to classes for first- and sixth-graders at elementary schools as well as third-year students at junior high schools. The proposal was made to local education boards on Friday. Most school across the country have been closed since early March amid the outbreak.
ERICOPOLY Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 It’s not just schools but daycares now that summer break is almost here. Are people meant to leave the 5 yr old at home while they go back to work?
Liberty Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Snopes looking into the anti-lockdown protests: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/05/20/michigan-lockdown-protesters/
ERICOPOLY Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 It’s relatively easier for Japan to stay open if (in general) fewer moms were working to begin with.
Gregmal Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Snopes looking into the anti-lockdown protests: https://www.snopes.com/news/2020/05/20/michigan-lockdown-protesters/ Ha! Ive been waiting for them to try to bridge this. The playbook is all too obvious by now. Protestors = white supremist Trump supporters. Thats where they'll take this. Just wait.
rb Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 I don't know. But swastikas do have a tendency to show up at these things don't they?
Guest Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2020-opinion-coronavirus-europe-lockdown-excess-deaths-recession/ "But, as our next chart shows, there’s little correlation between the severity of a nation’s restrictions and whether it managed to curb excess fatalities — a measure that looks at the overall number of deaths compared with normal trends."
ERICOPOLY Posted May 20, 2020 Posted May 20, 2020 Trump summoned them out from under their rocks with his April 17th tweet of “Liberate Michigan!”. In doing so, he was blaming the Governors for stay-at-home policy. Trump of course also had a stay at home policy of his own. It most definitely is motivated by his 2020 campaign — just a coincidence that Michigan is an important state to win and the Democratic governor gave the convention speech this year? She is being groomed by the party and would be an ideal running mate for Biden. She is like a brainy Sarah Palin. The other candidates like Warren and Klobuchar need to retain their seats in Congress for the party. Trump even directed Pence not to answer her calls as he has been scheming to undermine Michigan’s success.
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