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If You Were To Build A Business


BG2008
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aside from an intrinsic "moat", characteristics would be: low capital requirements, addictive or necessary product, ability to scale.

 

historically what has been good:

 

the vices, gambling and drugs in particular although it's easy money so people will always want a cut.

"expertise" services: particularly protected ones like doctor/nursing centers, dentists, specialists.

 

look at places where a number of people get moderately rich. the uber-filthy rich are monopolists, in essence. difficult to disrupt, many factors outside of your control. the moderate rich provide services/businesses that are more achievable.

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I am building a business, kind of. And I try to keep it simple.

 

A percentage of my savings and retirement I steer into single family residences. There's a special formula and area of expertise I believe I possess with regard to how I select the property, but the objective is simple.

 

Invest today at 10-20% of the property value. I always take a mortgage. Then pull a few levers, and perhaps reduce your carrying costs, but regardless, lease it up. Take slightly below market rent in exchange for high quality tenants. Treat them well and they stay and pay your mortgage down for you.

 

In 15 years I own the asset outright and have recurring cash flows. In 20-30 years I have a portfolio of properties I can have my kids manage, which will allow them not to ever have to worry about money. Only an idiot, and maybe the Sitestar guys, can screw up small scale residential.

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One business characteristic I think is interesting is something where you build a valuable passive asset as a sidebar to the primary business. This gives potential for a huge capital gain of you succeed, and offsets losses if you fail.

 

I'll provide some examples.

 

Car dealerships are an ok business, but owning large real estate parcels in the path of growth of big cities where the business makes the payments is attractive. Even if everyone goes Tesla I bet 10 acres off the interstate has value. The real estate is incidental to the business but a potential source of large profits.

 

Similarly, many tech companies generate patents in the course of their business that have the potential to provide a bit of a soft landing from licensing. Wi-Lan is an example here.

 

I was aware of a firm that bought a gas field that came with infrastructure. The gas was a terrible business, but they put 3rd party volumes through the plant and made out well with the ancillary business.

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Invest today at 10-20% of the property value. I always take a mortgage. Then pull a few levers, and perhaps reduce your carrying costs, but regardless, lease it up. Take slightly below market rent in exchange for high quality tenants. Treat them well and they stay and pay your mortgage down for you.

 

 

Greg, are these properties in the same area that you live? If not, how do you manage landlord-related duties (fixing or replacing something etc.)?

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Invest today at 10-20% of the property value. I always take a mortgage. Then pull a few levers, and perhaps reduce your carrying costs, but regardless, lease it up. Take slightly below market rent in exchange for high quality tenants. Treat them well and they stay and pay your mortgage down for you.

 

 

Greg, are these properties in the same area that you live? If not, how do you manage landlord-related duties (fixing or replacing something etc.)?

 

Yes(mostly) they have to be within a distance in which I can manage them. I've tried a million times(for the purposes of a vacation home) to go out of area. Maybe others can do it, but I cant get there otherwise. Too many variables if you arent immersed in the area yourself. I have a good friend Ive known since grade school who is a GC; there's my handyman work. I have a couple realtors who Ive done a lot of business with. Same with the mortgage folks; there's your market feelers. I lucked into a great lawyer at a mid tier regional firm who charges $250 for partner level work and in terms of everything management wise, provides a paralegal at a $140 a hour rate. I also know all the HOA board people and the property manager at one of the communities I have several properties. All of these things exist because of familiarity with the area and relationships. It's where I get the value add. So I hope to ride these things until to portfolio is largely paid down mortgage wise, and hopefully my kids dont end up being idiots, but even if they do, I would think it pretty hard to screw up a steady stream of passive income. If anything, as my value add levers phase out, my mortgages are paid down, and worst case can just use the increased cash flow to outsource the property manager for 5-10% of monthly revenue.

 

Only times I will consider going out of area is if I have friends or family in the area. Then you can lean on those people a little to fill in the things above. But its harder.

 

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I have been thinking about building an investment advisor business. No performance fee. Only a small asset fees. It will be interesting thing to do after retirement.

 

And my wife thinks I shall get into plumbing when I retire. Lol. All the plumbers are so busy and charge insanely high rates.

 

 

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Thanks Greg. I am starting to do something similar but for vacation properties, not even looking for capital appreciation. Would be nice to have 3 places to live for 4 months of the year, then rent/airBNB for the remainder. Difficult is managing from afar if something goes wrong. I am willing to give up a % to a property manager so that will have to be the way to go, but I'm not sure how effective they really are for single family residences.

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If you were to start a business today, what would it be?  Or just broad strategies?

 

Have partners ..  to spread the financial risk, and time involvement over.

You cannot be everywhere at once, you need a variety of things to do, and you need to hear different POV's.

 

Think the trade guilds - welding, brewing, bread making, cheese making, etc. Get the masters certificate, buy out someone who wants to semi-retire & reduce their workload, and use industry/grant funded apprentices for much of your labour. I hold a Master Brewers Certificate, own a part interest in a craft brewery, and occasionally contract brew for others ;)

 

Some folks learn to play guitar or drums ... and some are just utter sh1te at it!

But brewing beer ... now that's something I KNOW how to do!!

 

Think block-chain/smart-contract technology. Take an existing business, gut/automate its processes using this tech, consolidate an industry sector, and get bought out as the lowest cost provider.  Needless to say - don't wake anybody up until you're the gorilla in the room.

 

Good luck!

 

SD

 

 

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Property managers IMO arent worth much unless they are versatile. Its a low barrier to entry, low skill job. Really, the best property managers are just really good with relationships and very organized. But for rentals its hard because of the model. Everyone takes % of rent when really you'd see much more value if it was done on an hourly or per job rate. But they need to get paid when they're not doing anything..... Its like the handyman thing. My GC/friend will swing by and replace a valve on his way home. He'll charge me cost for parts plus like $30 an hour...Whereas any plumber/HVAC company will charge minimum $125 to show up and then labor plus part markup. Whereas a property manager, would get the notification a valve needs to be replaced on the water heater and hire a company(which btw you have no idea if theyre worth THEIR rates either), and on a pass through basis, you are double paying for every problem to be fixed. The above example cost me $40 vs probably north of $300 with the property manager/HVAC pro scenario. Shit like this almost always happens in one form or another. I agree 100% if you're mortgaging and renting you shouldn't be looking to make money right now. Ive even made offers where I would be losing a few bucks for a while, just depends on what you're trying to accomplish.

 

Something else hugely helpful in my scenario(although definitely be careful) is condo/townhouse HOA communities. I can offer to buy a property without even viewing it, knowing that the only big material cost in a unit is the HVAC. Tell me the age of the furnace and condenser and I'm able to make an offer on the spot. Everything outside, from the roof to the decks is an HOA responsibility. So if you're in a good area your HOA fees act as a barrier to entry, and you also kind of get the pass through property manager benefit.

 

In a simple way...just buy good properties and try to match up costs of carry with rental income. +/- a few bucks isn't a big deal just make sure the mortgage gets paid every month. If you do it long enough you're guaranteed to own the asset eventually. You also have the add on(non monetary benefit) of building relationships with the people you rent to, and often get to know you're helping someone out. Providing them a place to live and make memories. The returns are much lower than playing the stock market, but it's much safer, less time consuming, and many times you actually feel like you're creating something positive in the community vs just flipping pieces of paper to other money whores.

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I guess this classifies more as a temporary side gig but for the sake of content I'll add it  :P

 

I wouldn't really call this a long-term business or something that I will continue to do, but I sort of "lucked" into a situation this past year.  A lady who I am acquaintances with owns about 19 town home rentals in my immediate area (kudos to her). She was looking to upgrade the kitchen counter tops in all of them over the next year or two. Well my dad was a carpenter and happened to specialize in custom kitchens. I used to work with him on weekends back in High School so I know enough to be dangerous. Anyways I made a hand shake deal with this lady that I would build the countertops for her over the course of the next year and beyond at her convenience.

 

I have been building about one a month for the past 3 months. It doesn't take much time 4-6ish hours each build + install. Because they are town homes they are all pretty standard, same granite, same dimensions. Typically you charge labor by the square foot and not actual build time. Conveniently I use my dads former shop (I give him a kickback for maintenance costs) and was able to use his contractors account to get access to materials. All in all it's been a pretty sweet deal. Shes happy with the slightly lower than market cost and I'm happy with the extra cash ($1300/m. A nice addition to the future kids college funds) for minimal effort. Plus there is some added enjoyment I get out of this over mashing a keyboard all day.

 

Contracting is a murky business and this is about as convenient as it can get.

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I am building a business, kind of. And I try to keep it simple.

 

A percentage of my savings and retirement I steer into single family residences. There's a special formula and area of expertise I believe I possess with regard to how I select the property, but the objective is simple.

 

Invest today at 10-20% of the property value. I always take a mortgage. Then pull a few levers, and perhaps reduce your carrying costs, but regardless, lease it up. Take slightly below market rent in exchange for high quality tenants. Treat them well and they stay and pay your mortgage down for you.

 

In 15 years I own the asset outright and have recurring cash flows. In 20-30 years I have a portfolio of properties I can have my kids manage, which will allow them not to ever have to worry about money. Only an idiot, and maybe the Sitestar guys, can screw up small scale residential.

 

Gregmal, can you elaborate at all on this?  Do you tend to buy homes, townhouses or apartment style condos?  Do you rent the whole unit out or split it up?

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No one doing an Instagram/Social Media scale up?

 

Honestly, wrong forum.

 

People doing scale up businesses don't hang out here (with very few exceptions).

 

I beg to differ.  I think things have changed.  I know of a few people who are both value investors and heavily utilize Instagram and Social Media to grow and promote their businesses whether it is selling products or selling subscription.  I think most CoB guys are a bit too "old school" to realize that social media has lowered the barrier to entry in a very meaningful way.  I know of ice cream people who use Instagram to heavily promote all natural ingredients and they have done very well. 

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I am building a business, kind of. And I try to keep it simple.

 

A percentage of my savings and retirement I steer into single family residences. There's a special formula and area of expertise I believe I possess with regard to how I select the property, but the objective is simple.

 

Invest today at 10-20% of the property value. I always take a mortgage. Then pull a few levers, and perhaps reduce your carrying costs, but regardless, lease it up. Take slightly below market rent in exchange for high quality tenants. Treat them well and they stay and pay your mortgage down for you.

 

In 15 years I own the asset outright and have recurring cash flows. In 20-30 years I have a portfolio of properties I can have my kids manage, which will allow them not to ever have to worry about money. Only an idiot, and maybe the Sitestar guys, can screw up small scale residential.

 

Gregmal, can you elaborate at all on this?  Do you tend to buy homes, townhouses or apartment style condos?  Do you rent the whole unit out or split it up?

 

I tend to stick to condos. Its incredibly useful x-ing out many of the traditional home owner problems. Roof, siding, decks...not my issue. Everyone pays in and then you also get the added property manager benefit. It also helps when you have relationships within the community(for instance I had the old, underperforming property manager fired and brought in my choice for a replacement).

 

For me, it is a must to have knowledge of the area and reliable vendors. Good HVAC people are money in the bank. A sub $50 an hour handyman; gold. Perhaps I'm just biased because of where I live, but Ive found the sweet spot for renting in being in an area that is fringe. Closer to big cities you have rower rents relative to purchase price. Too rural and your rents are a tad higher(on a % basis) but you won't ever really get appreciation. So stay in between.

 

Sweet spot IMO is 1-2br floor units in good areas. Good for old people with accessibility issues(ie stairs), great for divorced people in transition, and good for small families looking to get into a good school system.

 

 

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what are ballpark figures for monthly rent, maintenance fees and property taxes for condos like that?

 

As follows

 

1br $1600-1700(towards the lower end you can take your pick of high quality tenants with 700+ credit scores), HOA $330-$350, taxes ~$4700, market value currently ~$160K per(pre 2008 sales where mid 200s)

 

2br $2200-2400(same as above wrt tenant quality) HOA $400 or so, taxes $6500, market value currently around $250-270k (pre 2008 300s)

 

Here's the reason those numbers work though.. theres ZERO market for $3000 per month and up rentals here. So under $2500 and especially $2000 per month is super competitive.

 

This is just a specific community I have multiple properties in, but by and large those numbers are in the ballpark for what I look for. Again I would reiterate that the way I am investing in the stock market, I need to be consumed by it and its heavily taxing mentally. So with these, Im not looking to have ridiculous returns, but simply have something simple that takes care of itself and does better than the passive 3-5% I'd get elsewhere putting in no effort. I also try to stay disciplined and avoid concentration risk. I'd like to get a few mil face value of properties; ie something that spits off a decent chunk of cashflow, but also something that is reasonable enough in size to offload to a local HNW investor if I ever wanted liquidity and found selling more attractive than the alternatives.

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what are ballpark figures for monthly rent, maintenance fees and property taxes for condos like that?

 

As follows

 

1br $1600-1700(towards the lower end you can take your pick of high quality tenants with 700+ credit scores), HOA $330-$350, taxes ~$4700, market value currently ~$160K per(pre 2008 sales where mid 200s)

 

2br $2200-2400(same as above wrt tenant quality) HOA $400 or so, taxes $6500, market value currently around $250-270k (pre 2008 300s)

 

Here's the reason those numbers work though.. theres ZERO market for $3000 per month and up rentals here. So under $2500 and especially $2000 per month is super competitive.

 

This is just a specific community I have multiple properties in, but by and large those numbers are in the ballpark for what I look for. Again I would reiterate that the way I am investing in the stock market, I need to be consumed by it and its heavily taxing mentally. So with these, Im not looking to have ridiculous returns, but simply have something simple that takes care of itself and does better than the passive 3-5% I'd get elsewhere putting in no effort. I also try to stay disciplined and avoid concentration risk. I'd like to get a few mil face value of properties; ie something that spits off a decent chunk of cashflow, but also something that is reasonable enough in size to offload to a local HNW investor if I ever wanted liquidity and found selling more attractive than the alternatives.

 

What kind of levered cash yield are you getting including amortization?  What kind of LTV do you get?  What is reasonable long term appreciation?  The rents you mentioned are actually in line with Queens NYC which I am kind of surprised by.  What's the time to rent after a tenant vacate?  I just rented one of my units in less than 10 days.  I have heard stories of very high yields in suburbs but you run into issues with renting to a specific group of renters, i.e. college students and very compressed windows to find tenants.  You don't get good yields in Queens from day one, but the long term price appreciation tend to be excellent.  When levered 70-80%, the long term IRR are quite good. 

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what are ballpark figures for monthly rent, maintenance fees and property taxes for condos like that?

 

As follows

 

1br $1600-1700(towards the lower end you can take your pick of high quality tenants with 700+ credit scores), HOA $330-$350, taxes ~$4700, market value currently ~$160K per(pre 2008 sales where mid 200s)

 

2br $2200-2400(same as above wrt tenant quality) HOA $400 or so, taxes $6500, market value currently around $250-270k (pre 2008 300s)

 

Here's the reason those numbers work though.. theres ZERO market for $3000 per month and up rentals here. So under $2500 and especially $2000 per month is super competitive.

 

This is just a specific community I have multiple properties in, but by and large those numbers are in the ballpark for what I look for. Again I would reiterate that the way I am investing in the stock market, I need to be consumed by it and its heavily taxing mentally. So with these, Im not looking to have ridiculous returns, but simply have something simple that takes care of itself and does better than the passive 3-5% I'd get elsewhere putting in no effort. I also try to stay disciplined and avoid concentration risk. I'd like to get a few mil face value of properties; ie something that spits off a decent chunk of cashflow, but also something that is reasonable enough in size to offload to a local HNW investor if I ever wanted liquidity and found selling more attractive than the alternatives.

 

What kind of levered cash yield are you getting including amortization?  What kind of LTV do you get?  What is reasonable long term appreciation?  The rents you mentioned are actually in line with Queens NYC which I am kind of surprised by.  What's the time to rent after a tenant vacate?  I just rented one of my units in less than 10 days.  I have heard stories of very high yields in suburbs but you run into issues with renting to a specific group of renters, i.e. college students and very compressed windows to find tenants.  You don't get good yields in Queens from day one, but the long term price appreciation tend to be excellent.  When levered 70-80%, the long term IRR are quite good.

 

Would it not be typical to show a place for rental while the previous tenants were living there? The standard here is 30 days notice, and I've almost always found that sufficient to get places turned over with zero vacancy. Ie previous tenant moves out may 31, new tenant moves in June 1st. I've probably turned over my rentals 30-40 times, and this month is the first time I've ever taken a day of unplanned vacancy.

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It all depends but Ill typically look at 15-20% LTV. My objective is to maintain a reasonable(and stable, meaning I keep buying semi regularly) allocation to this stuff but not allocate too much of my cash to it. So maybe in one instance I'll do 15% with a 15 year mortgage and after 12 months the PMI falls off and I get a favorable tax reassessment and year two my numbers look much better. Or in another I'll just do a traditional 30 yr knowing my payments will be nothing and eventually Ill get the taxes dropped 15% and a tenant in there on a 2-3 yr term and just throw the extra cash back against the principal.

 

My first one I bought in my mid/late 20s was as follows

 

$140K purchase price

20% down @4.875 rate, total nut about $1100 + $335 HOA

2 weeks to find tenant @1575 per month(first year I own the unit I try to stay 1yr or less on term so I can feel things out better and line up future tenants)

appealed taxes and dropped assessed value from $165k to $145k

5 years or so later they're selling maybe mid $160s, rents are ~$1700, monthly mortgage is a hair under $1100 and HOA is $344.

 

Typically Ive been able to find tenants within 7-14 days. Longest it ever took was about a month, but my pricing was aggressive. Ive found lowballing your ask on the rent is useful because it creates a rush of demand. You can then instruct your agent to either have a bidding war or negotiate a longer term multi year lease at the ask with higher quality prospects. But that is also out of the gate after taking ownership. As bizaro said, once someone is in there, its easy to show the place once you have 30-60 days notice.

 

What I'd point out, as a born and raised Bergen County guy and life long NJ/NY area fellow, is that what Bronx/Brooklyn/Queens etc benefit from on a hyper growth scale, the suburbs do too in a much more subdued fashion. I remember playing hockey up by the Pallisades in the mid 90s and driving through Mahwah NJ. It was basically farmland and considered the boondocks. Today its multi million dollar homes. Oakland and Hawthorne were for poor people. Now they're $600K for a 3/2 1500 sq ft home. Its the NYC worker drift. That band of commuters to Bergen County and NYC keeps getting pushed out. Further down 80 and 287. I know people who commute to NYC from Hackettstown and even parts of PA. So the area I live/invest benefits from that and also having a great school system. Always buy the lowest cost admission ticket to the best show in town. People will always need a place to live, people will always aspire to live in nice neighborhoods, parents will always want the best schools for their kids, and old people will always want to hang around but downsize.

 

I want nothing to do with traditional single family. The cost, whether financial or time wise of having to do something as simple as mow a lawn once a week is a major pain in the ass. Let alone the real shit. Roofing is a nightmare. So are many other major things that as a homeowner I dread and dont want any part of when managing my properties(Plus a good HOA manager will get community discounts for those services as well). Again, I dont try to do anything heroic; I started simply figuring I'd throw low 5 figures into something and hope it paid for one of my kids college tuition. But like anything else where theres money to be made I got addicted when I saw it work.

 

 

 

 

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what are ballpark figures for monthly rent, maintenance fees and property taxes for condos like that?

 

As follows

 

1br $1600-1700(towards the lower end you can take your pick of high quality tenants with 700+ credit scores), HOA $330-$350, taxes ~$4700, market value currently ~$160K per(pre 2008 sales where mid 200s)

 

2br $2200-2400(same as above wrt tenant quality) HOA $400 or so, taxes $6500, market value currently around $250-270k (pre 2008 300s)

 

Here's the reason those numbers work though.. theres ZERO market for $3000 per month and up rentals here. So under $2500 and especially $2000 per month is super competitive.

 

This is just a specific community I have multiple properties in, but by and large those numbers are in the ballpark for what I look for. Again I would reiterate that the way I am investing in the stock market, I need to be consumed by it and its heavily taxing mentally. So with these, Im not looking to have ridiculous returns, but simply have something simple that takes care of itself and does better than the passive 3-5% I'd get elsewhere putting in no effort. I also try to stay disciplined and avoid concentration risk. I'd like to get a few mil face value of properties; ie something that spits off a decent chunk of cashflow, but also something that is reasonable enough in size to offload to a local HNW investor if I ever wanted liquidity and found selling more attractive than the alternatives.

 

Gregmal, thanks for sharing these numbers. Based on the high tax rate, it sounds like you are somewhere in NY burps, perhaps Westchester county or LI.

 

Have you seen any impact of rent regulation on property values there? I had a holding which had some NYC properties which marks their properties at market and based on my calculation, their property valued were reduced by ~7% since rent regulation became effective.

 

We have an acquaintance in our town in MA who rents real estate who lower end multi family units and claims he makes a double digit cash return on those. He does some handy work himself and services like snow removal and for others he has a guy (he has a full time job so this is just a side activity for him).  This is an area that a bit distressed still and rents are low (<$1000), so the units are pretty cheap. He doesn’t get a whole lot of price appreciation so far, but a high cash return. Different strokes for different people I guess. CA was totally different - negative cash return (even when not counting in mortgage amortization and just mortgage interest) and any buy was a bet on price appreciation.

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I'm in Northern NJ, so probably a little different than the Westchester/White Plains area, but similar characteristics. I haven't noticed or heard much about the rent control effects, but 10000% have seen the impact of SALT. Any home over $500K is impaired. Which is not to say it doesnt move, but you've seen a major slowdown with anything in that price range and up. Especially the McMansions. The machine looks like it will keep moving, but is taking time to digest the fact a lot of buyers are leaving the market. By me(Morris/Sussex/Warren Counties) you're basically able to buy homes that several years ago were $700-800k for high 500s/low-mid 600s. A $500K home in this area carries about a $17K+ annual property tax bill. Which for my rentals, works great, because its increased the demand for the lower tier properties. And also given me a speculative angle to acquire more properties with the eventual assumption that Washington repeals the $10K SALT deduction limit. Bergen County, for the most part, has slightly lower taxes, but that $800k-$1.2M range has gotten whacked. I would think the closer to NYC you get, the less obvious the effect, but its still there.

 

And on a side note, regarding really low end, my brother in law was recently telling me about owning/operating trailer park rentals in Florida...the returns would blow your mind....

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Hey all:

 

Trying to take my mind of my Fed-Ex problems.

 

One business I've been contemplating is a "ghost kitchen".

 

I've got a line on a piece of property that used to be a small restaurant.  It was closed down, and has been vacant for years.  It is functionally impaired, as it is simply way to small for a "traditional" restaurant. 

 

HOWEVER, there are several interesting things going on with it. 

 

A). It is in a "working class" neighborhood, and prices are moderate.  HOWEVER, it is literally 3 blocks from a MUCH higher end city(s).  From this location, it is very easy to deliver to the "Grosse Pointes".  For those of you not familiar with the Detroit area, the Grosse Pointes are 5 small cities all next to each other.  They were the highest end Detroit suburbs back in the 50's, 60's, 70's....and they are still very near the top.  Very high end.  I would imagine that the right cuisine would appeal to residents of the Pointes.  You've also got a good amount of population that is easily reachable, but "The Pointes" are the major deliverable area/target.

 

The location is also 1/8 of a mile from a major freeway.  You've got good access points to major roads/expressways/traffic arteries.

 

B). In addition to be a "ghost kitchen", the property could do multiple duties.  For example, it could act as a commissary for a food truck or three.  In the morning, the food trucks are cleaned/prepped.  The kitchen prepares what food is needed to be prepared for the trucks from say 7 AM to 10 AM.  At 10 AM, food trucks roll out, and prep then switches over to the "ghost kitchens".  Goal is to be online at 11 AM for the "ghost kitchen" delivery.

 

So you've got cheap real estate in a location that is literally blocks from very high end neighborhoods with good access points to traffic arteries.  Perfect set-up for "ghost kitchen"?

 

Of course, one of the keys is having a good chef(s) and workers.  Chef, Assistant chef, food prepper, phone/order taker, and then 3-4 delivery drivers?

 

If that problem is solved, could you do 3/4 of the revenue of a traditional sit down restaurant for 1/4 the capital investment?  Bonus $$$ for food trucks?

 

We will see!

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