Elon Musk...human? - Political

[james22]

15 minutes ago, dwy000 said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting there isnt massive amounts of waste in government spend (just like most large corporates).  The question is more how best to deal with it.

 

Move Fast and Break Things

[lnofeisone]

5 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

You're bringing politics into the mix which is not relevant to the issue of govt. waste.  Until a month ago, nothing has been done.  Now we are engaged.  As I suggested to another poster, bring on any challenges.  The issues will be sorted out and hopefully compromise will prevail.  The status quo was unacceptable.  At least someone is making an effort.  The fact that you, or anyone does not like specific proposed cuts has nothing to do with the larger issue which few folks who are complaining want to address.

Do you work in Gov't to say things like "Until a month ago, nothing has been done?" From my days in Gov't contracting, I 100% disagree. I dreaded getting TIGTA audits and went through a couple. 

 

But let's table this discussion and see where Elon comes out at the end of this. I just want to set the parameters clear: 1) can't complain when he gets fired that he wasn't allowed to finish his job 2) we'll tally up total savings and add all the extra expenses that I think will come because of his actions 3) we'll take into account any economic growth/contraction that will likely precipitate from this 4) though some of this isn't going to be on Elon, let's see what our debt is on the day Elon is done. 

 

Let's stay objective, numbers only. No politics. 

[dwy000]

3 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

Move Fast and Break Things

That's a great philosophy for a software company.  Not so much when providing healthcare, retirement income, national defense, world diplomacy, etc.  

[james22]

6 minutes ago, dwy000 said:

That's a great philosophy for a software company.  Not so much when providing healthcare, retirement income, national defense, world diplomacy, etc.  

 

How's that worked out?

[73 Reds]

6 minutes ago, lnofeisone said:

Do you work in Gov't to say things like "Until a month ago, nothing has been done?" From my days in Gov't contracting, I 100% disagree. I dreaded getting TIGTA audits and went through a couple. 

 

But let's table this discussion and see where Elon comes out at the end of this. I just want to set the parameters clear: 1) can't complain when he gets fired that he wasn't allowed to finish his job 2) we'll tally up total savings and add all the extra expenses that I think will come because of his actions 3) we'll take into account any economic growth/contraction that will likely precipitate from this 4) though some of this isn't going to be on Elon, let's see what our debt is on the day Elon is done. 

 

Let's stay objective, numbers only. No politics. 

Until a month ago the proverbial can was being kicked down the road.  Again, not speaking to specific govt. contracts, agencies or individuals, but rather the larger picture of trying to address the low-hanging fruit if you will, which no one was even making an effort to identify. 

[cubsfan]

4 minutes ago, dwy000 said:

That's a great philosophy for a software company.  Not so much when providing healthcare, retirement income, national defense, world diplomacy, etc.  

 

It's a great philosophy when you are dealing with corruption and unaccountable bureaucracy.

And exactly why this adminstration was voted in. 

[Gregmal]

See this is the larger problem with why the government cockroach problem will never be solved. There's no perfect solution, but it needs to stop growing. And even when people admirably take on this task, there's still all these obstructionists. Is there an orderly way to do it? Probably. But guess what, there's also orderly ways to build roads and bridges and the government has clearly demonstrated they can't even do that stuff efficiently either. 

[james22]

On 2/24/2025 at 8:59 AM, james22 said:

 

 

This isn't a partisan issue.

 

Both parties have tried and failed to reign in the bureaucracies.

 

 

For more than a century, even dating back to 1883, the civil service has grown and grown without check from the elected branch, either the presidency or the legislature . The bureaucracies have ballooned from a few to 450 or so. The bloat and absurdities have grown too.

 

Get this: no one has ever known what to do about it. Not Coolidge, not Hoover, not Nixon, not Reagan, not Clinton, no one. No president has been able to crack this nut. The only reforms ever to have made it through are those that make the administrative state bigger, never smaller. Countless cabinet secretaries have come and gone, always with the intention of making a change but leaving saddened, demoralized, outwitted, outgunned, and ultimately devoured.

 

No president has seriously taken on this problem because they simply did not know how. The unions are powerful, the intimidation from the deep institutional knowledge is overwhelming, the fear of the media as been powerful, and every single president comes to power vaguely feeling threatened by the intelligence agencies. The industries that have captured every single agency were also far too powerful to unseat or control.

 

This combination of institutional inertia has blocked serious reform for a full century. No one has dared. No one has even had a theory or strategy about what to do about this problem. It had become so terrible that most people in politics have simply surrendered, like homeowners who know there are rats in the basement and bats in the attic but long ago gave up trying to fix the issue.

 

But reformers are now no longer dependent upon the bureaucracies to provide information.

 

 

 

[Gregmal]

Yup. And therein lies the issue. Ask most Americans, and all these "agencies" are totally useless when you go out and seek their assistance. But more often than not, when you want to do something or be left alone, then they show up and start making your life more difficult. Not how it's supposed to work. 

[cubsfan]

^^^ Bingo!!!    The Republicans have been just as guilty!  Non-partisan issue.

 

That's why the populist defeated the encumbent Republican Party.

 

Citizens are sick of both parties doing absolutely nothing. 

[Gregmal]

Ever want to see this problem at its infant state, just look at how HOAs work. They generally start small and benevolent. Purpose seems simple enough, to protect homeowners. Over time the boards get cluttered with egomaniacs and people whom seek something personally satisfying from the position. And before you know it, they exist to basically bully homeowners and curry favor for

those entrenched.
 

I’m completely unaware of any important government agency where people are working for free, so right off the bat, Elons got more respect in his endeavor here than we should grant those at the bloated agencies he’s working to make redundant. 

[lnofeisone]

9 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

I’m completely unaware of any important government agency where people are working for free, so right off the bat, Elons got more respect in his endeavor here than we should grant those at the bloated agencies he’s working to make redundant. 

Elon is the only one not getting paid. The rest of DOGE is paid. 

[lnofeisone]

50 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

This isn't a partisan issue.

 

Both parties have tried and failed to reign in the bureaucracies.

 

 

For more than a century, even dating back to 1883, the civil service has grown and grown without check from the elected branch, either the presidency or the legislature . The bureaucracies have ballooned from a few to 450 or so. The bloat and absurdities have grown too.

 

What a terrible analysis. Population also grew from 1883 so did the GDP. What are the ratios of population:civ. work force or GDP: salary of civ. workers. 

 

The right is so fixated on civ. workers being bad and then somehow conflate it waste and fraud. The civ. workers for the right is like TDS for the left. The right can't point to fraud or waste in meaningful numbers (we are plying this game of "let's see what Elon will do") and the left card blanche thinks everything Trump does is bad. In the end, we all will have a terrible time. 

[TwoCitiesCapital]

3 hours ago, dwy000 said:

That's a great philosophy for a software company.  Not so much when providing healthcare, retirement income, national defense, world diplomacy, etc.  

 

Or full self driving. 

 

Yet here we are. 

[treasurehunt]

3 hours ago, lnofeisone said:

Do you work in Gov't to say things like "Until a month ago, nothing has been done?" From my days in Gov't contracting, I 100% disagree. I dreaded getting TIGTA audits and went through a couple. 

 

But let's table this discussion and see where Elon comes out at the end of this. I just want to set the parameters clear: 1) can't complain when he gets fired that he wasn't allowed to finish his job 2) we'll tally up total savings and add all the extra expenses that I think will come because of his actions 3) we'll take into account any economic growth/contraction that will likely precipitate from this 4) though some of this isn't going to be on Elon, let's see what our debt is on the day Elon is done. 

 

Let's stay objective, numbers only. No politics. 

 

I really like this idea. There will probably still be gray areas and room for different interpretations, but at least this is an attempt at an objective analysis. There seems to be this view that government bureaucracy is so bad that doing something - anything - can only be an improvement, regardless of what this something is. I disagree. Having lived in another country for a good part of my life, I can assure you that government bureaucracy could be much worse. So it is important to examine the actions that are being taken to make government more efficient and the consequences of these actions.

[cubsfan]

44 minutes ago, treasurehunt said:

 

I really like this idea. There will probably still be gray areas and room for different interpretations, but at least this is an attempt at an objective analysis. There seems to be this view that government bureaucracy is so bad that doing something - anything - can only be an improvement, regardless of what this something is. I disagree. Having lived in another country for a good part of my life, I can assure you that government bureaucracy could be much worse. So it is important to examine the actions that are being taken to make government more efficient and the consequences of these actions.

 

You are right on.

[dwy000]

10 hours ago, 73 Reds said:

 Does anyone truly believe that deficits can continue to grow indefinitely without consequences or taxing people to oblivion?

Well, with the budget just passed the accumulated deficits will be $19T for the next 10 years.  And that's if all the cuts that were achieved, the tariffs meet all revenue projections and none of that affects growth. 

[SharperDingaan]

Most would argue that he's drunk on power; I am invincible!

At one time he was very, very good .... now he's just another idiot savant, flying high on rapidly melting wings.

Every round of cuts, a new roll of the dice betting on the unsuccessful reprisal of thousands of people; then one day the dice comes up against .....  

 

SD

[TwoCitiesCapital]

1 hour ago, dwy000 said:

Well, with the budget just passed the accumulated deficits will be $19T for the next 10 years.  And that's if all the cuts that were achieved, the tariffs meet all revenue projections and none of that affects growth. 

 

Plenty of people believe it - in both parties. Otherwise we'd have never have gotten here. 

 

Trump himself ran the largest peacetime deficits ever during his last presidency and Musk's current cost cuts pale in comparison to Republican proposed tax cuts that will further increase the debt. 

 

We're past the point of no return IMO. How quickly it unravels depends on how quickly others come to the same conclusion. 

[Parsad]

12 hours ago, lnofeisone said:

Elon is the only one not getting paid. The rest of DOGE is paid. 

 

Oh Elon is getting paid...just not the way everyone else is.  Elon is slowly positioning himself to be the most powerful human in history.  The world should either be ecstatic or scared shitless!  Cheers!

[dealraker]

6 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Oh Elon is getting paid...just not the way everyone else is.  Elon is slowly positioning himself to be the most powerful human in history.  The world should either be ecstatic or scared shitless!  Cheers!

Just like in the James Bond movies!

[73 Reds]

7 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Oh Elon is getting paid...just not the way everyone else is.  Elon is slowly positioning himself to be the most powerful human in history.  The world should either be ecstatic or scared shitless!  Cheers!

I think he is already there.  That's what F-U money can buy.  Would anyone prefer that this person be Chinese, Russian, or Iranian?  Critics laughably pretend that they know more about how to generate wealth and influence policy while playing back seat driver and in relative terms accomplish little or nothing.   I, for one am glad the guy is working for us.  

[Ulti]

Another example of bureaucratic incompetence combined with an agenda … this one from the progressive side…

Doombergs latest

 

 

The Wreckers

Trump prepares to loosen Sacramento’s death grip on the national transportation sector.

DOOMBERG

FEB 26

∙

PREVIEW

 

READ IN APP

 

“This is not the United States of California.” – Chris Spear

A tow truck driver is killed approximatelyevery three weeks in the US. Among small businesses, towing company operation is one of the toughest. Despite the critical role of maintaining road and highway safety, finding qualified workers willing to do the job is, quite obviously, a significant challenge. Mix in intense competition, high startup costs, and the need to be on call 24/7, and one wonders why anyone would embark on such a commercial venture.

 

Compounding the challenge is the ever-present regulatory state, and no state exerts its regulatory reach more persistently than California. Thanks to a congressional carve-out in the Clean Air Act, the California Air Resources Board (CARB) wields disproportionate influence over a wide range of industries. Given the size of California’s market and the several states that have pledged to follow its regulations, the transportation sector is effectively at the mercy of the progressive far left.

CARB derives its powers from specific waivers granted to it by the EPA, and no waiver is ever permanently overturned. In the waning weeks of the Biden administration, whoever was in charge decided to radically alter the nation’s car and trucking fleets with a set of new ones:

“The Biden administration on Wednesday approved California’s trailblazing rules that would set stricter-than-federal emissions standards, in a bid to ban gas car sales by 2035.

In doing so, the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) granted two requests from the California Air Resources Board for waivers that would allow for the implementation of two rules: the Advanced Clean Cars II regulations for light-duty vehicles and a low-nitrogen oxide regulation for heavy-duty highway and off-road vehicles and engines.”

Historic indeed | Associated Press

With a foresight characteristic of a central planner, CARB’s latest edicts suffer from a few flaws, notable among them being that California’s tow truck industry will soon be without access to new vehicles:

“Due to the CARB’s passage of the State’s Advanced Clean Truck (ACT) regulation, towing and recovery trucks will no longer be assembled or sold in California once 2024 truck inventories are depleted. Truck manufacturers have not developed electric truck chassis that meet towing and recovery truck performance and safety requirements, and towing companies can’t purchase diesel-powered trucks built before January 2024. This catch-22 threatens small businesses, jobs, and motorists.”

Although industry participants widely assume that President Trump will revoke these waivers, the history of such attempts suggests a significant political battle ahead. It also remains uncertain whether Congress will be capable of intervening, as the legislative hurdles may be higher than most suspect. Let’s pull apart the wreckage and examine how this might play out...

 

[Charlie]

2 hours ago, 73 Reds said:

9 hours ago, Parsad said:

Oh Elon is getting paid...just not the way everyone else is.  Elon is slowly positioning himself to be the most powerful human in history.  The world should either be ecstatic or scared shitless!  Cheers!

I think he is already there.  That's what F-U money can buy.  Would anyone prefer that this person be Chinese, Russian, or Iranian?  Critics laughably pretend that they know more about how to generate wealth and influence policy while playing back seat driver and in relative terms accomplish little or nothing.   I, for one am glad the guy is working for us.  

We will see. The weighing machine is working from Monday to Friday:

 

https://finance.yahoo.com/chart/TSLA#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

[Parsad]

3 hours ago, 73 Reds said:

I think he is already there.  That's what F-U money can buy.  Would anyone prefer that this person be Chinese, Russian, or Iranian?  Critics laughably pretend that they know more about how to generate wealth and influence policy while playing back seat driver and in relative terms accomplish little or nothing.   I, for one am glad the guy is working for us.  

 

For now!  He will go wherever the wind is beneath his sails.  Remember, it was gigafactories in China previously.  Then move everything to Texas.  Originally, it was Canada that he's giving a big fuck you to now! 

 

Elon is in it for Elon...not Trump, not the USA, no one!  The saving humanity shit is to move his agenda forward...some of that is exciting, some of that is God damn scary!  Cheers!