US Exceptionalism

[73 Reds]

5 minutes ago, Malmqky said:

IMO decades of bombing schools and killing innocent Muslims all in the name of the War on Terror has created many terrorists. It makes sense to me Lil Mohamed became a terrorist after watching his parents be killed in a U.S. airstrike. It makes sense to me he hates the West.

 

Look at how some Jews treat (kill) innocent Palestinians. Again, I understand why some Jews hate Palestinians. Look at the conflicts on Gaza over the years.  
 

I think it is an environmental thing.

No.  It is ideology and brainwashing since birth.  There is no moral equivalency in the Jewish/Palestinian conflict.  One side wants to wipe out the other; one side wants to peacefully co-exist.  Ignorance and a long, world-wide history of anti-semitism furthers the notion of any semblance of moral equivalence.  

[Malmqky]

6 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

No.  It is ideology and brainwashing since birth.  There is no moral equivalency in the Jewish/Palestinian conflict.  One side wants to wipe out the other; one side wants to peacefully co-exist.  Ignorance and a long, world-wide history of anti-semitism furthers the notion of any semblance of moral equivalence.  

I agree with ideology and brainwashing. 
 

However, there are individual Jews who want to wipe out Palestinians. Just like individual Muslims who want to wipe out the West. And I see how both were created due to environments.

 

I support Israel because I agree they have a right to exist and have very hostile neighbors who want to wipe them out. I also don’t think it’s black and white though.

 

 

EDIT: by black and white I mean this group bad, this group good.

Edited Wednesday at 03:51 PM by Malmqky

[73 Reds]

7 minutes ago, Malmqky said:

I agree with ideology and brainwashing. 
 

However, there are individual Jews who want to wipe out Palestinians. Just like individual Muslims who want to wipe out the West. And I see how both were created due to environments.

 

I support Israel because I agree they have a right to exist and have very hostile neighbors who want to wipe themselves out. I also don’t think it’s black and white though.

Sorry, no.  There are always crazy people of any denomination, including Jews and they are very much the exceptions.  There are large segments of the fundamentalist Muslim population and entire nations who seek to destroy Israel and the Jews.  Again, no moral equivalence whatsoever.  The issue is entirely black and white.

Edited Wednesday at 03:58 PM by 73 Reds
spelling

[Malmqky]

6 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

Sorry, no.  There are always crazy people of any denomination, including Jews and they are very much the exceptions.  There are large segments of the fundamentalist Muslims population and entire nations who seek to destroy Israel and the Jews.  Again, no mortal equivalence whatsoever.  The issue is entirely black and white.

Ah I see. I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying in this quote, except for the last two sentences.

 

As a group, yes Muslims are “worse” than Jews. Again, I believe this is due to environments. War on terror, brainwashing, etc.

 

But I think looking at groups of people and broad stereotypes is still wrong. I know many Muslims that are very good people.

 

Take rednecks for example. I live in the Midwest and literally almost every racist I know is a redneck. Usually because of ignorance and their upbringing. Does that mean rednecks as a group overall are racist? Maybe. But it is wrong to say rednecks are racist imo. Broad statements like that are wrong.

 

I think taking hard stances, claiming things are black and white, oversimplifying things.

 

Just my opinion, and I’m very open to criticism/pushback. I think things like this are very complicated and discussion is good. 
 

EDIT: I’m mainly disputing things are due to genetics or some bullshit dna difference that’s not taught/environmental

Edited Wednesday at 04:00 PM by Malmqky

[Malmqky]

20 minutes ago, Kizion said:

Also white white guys. It's not my point to make a one-to-one comparison and to prove my point with probabilities. It's to show that stereotyping is doing a lot of people wrong. 

 

Good example. Majority of school shootings (at least prominent ones) are white guys. Is this due to environment or some other reason like genetics.

Answer is obvious to me.

[Xerxes]

22 minutes ago, TB said:

Didn't Germany try to exercise this call option during the second world war? We all know how it ended up. 

Not even close. 
 

Lebensraum was never about Eurasian trade call option. 
 

Just creating living space for the master race, and throwing the Slavic race “beyond the Urals”. 

To think of it, the Mongols from centuries earlier were more advanced than the Germans of the 1930s, in their empire building schemes. 
 

The Third Reich was flawed from the get-go in its thinking. 

Edited Wednesday at 04:27 PM by Xerxes

[mcliu]

58 minutes ago, Kizion said:

 

I really like the discussion, and see the reponses of Luke & Malmqky. 

I understand your point, but you remove all the context - even when we would put them today in the same environment the outcome will be different due to several factors. 

It's just too easy to say that all bad things are a result of where they were born. 

 

As a European I'm in favor of migration - but as Luke said, we have to do more with it. We cannot just expect they come here and do their thing. We need to support them (in the right way, so not only providing benefits, but also guiding them to become value). I don't think they are a lost cause because they were born in Syria, Marocco or Congo. By the way, in the past, Belgians didn't want to work anymore in our coal mines, so we needed immigration. So what now is Syria, Marocco, ... was Italy, Turkey, Poland a few decades ago. People back then had the same fears about those people, but now they are well integrated and it further improves every generation. 

 

And so we come back to terrorist attacks - my comparison with mass shootings is to show that it's not only within the Muslims that you've people that do these kind of things. Also white white guys. It's not my point to make a one-to-one comparison and to prove my point with probabilities. It's to show that stereotyping is doing a lot of people wrong. 

How many generations do you think it'll take to make a cultural change?

Do you think it's easier to integrate Syrians into European society than it is to integrate Italians or Polish?

How do you think the mass migration of the past decade has benefited European society?

 

We have had a mass immigration issue in Canada here. Notably the government allowed record #s of "temporary" workers/students into the country creating chaos in housing, healthcare, crime. It's sad because Canada's immigrant country and has hugely benefitted from a well-designed immigration system designed to draw talent.

 

However, that was destroyed when the government started allowing everyone to come here. Now instead of multiculturalism, different ethnicities living together, we have parts of the country that are predominantly a single ethnicity groups since newcomers tend to coalesce around similar people.

 

Would love to hear your perspective in Europe.

[Luke]

41 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

Not even close. 
 

Lebensraum was never about Eurasian trade call option. 
 

Just creating living space for the master race, and throwing the Slavic race “beyond the Urals”. 

To think of it, the Mongols from centuries earlier were more advanced than the Germans of the 1930s, in their empire building schemes. 
 

The Third Reich was flawed from the get-go in its thinking. 

Thank you. Hitler was a retard and one of if not THE worst statesman that ever existed.

 

First to reply to the argument about success of US/West vs success/failue in middle east.

I think genetics play very little role here but random circumstances and rulers+some cultural elements maybe. There have been great civilizational achievements in the ottoman empire so i dont think the capability of these regions or islam as a religion stopps them from developing. Look at the saudis which are applying capitalism quite well now and are very successfull. It all maybe comes down to having good leadership and stability in these regions over a longe period of time, we had the monarchies and then functioning democracies that enabled this progress while in poorer regions you had circumstances where societies could not develop allthough potential was there. I think @Dinar makes a point in the people coming from poor or violent regions having the possibility of being a higher threat to stable societies so migration or tourism from there should be way more restricted and control IMO too. And thats not a problem, there are billions of people on the planet who want to work and make something out of themselves and live in less fortunate regions, all depends on how you setup the system. I think the US is a good example of successful migration up until recently where there is a problem with illegal migration of unqualified labor which i understand as problematic too.

 

@John Hjorth, dont forget to step down from the high throne ocassionally and look at the real world. We do trade with all sorts of countries that have human right abuses, just look towards the saudis where journalists are beheaded, women are enslaved at home...if you want to only trade with regions where its fairtrade then societies will crumble, you gotta accept that not everything is perfect. Regarding China, i think we should treat them with way more respect than we do for what they have achieved and engage in mutual development to increase both our potentials. Thats what diplomacy and politics is about. are you doing politics to increase the position of your country or are you running a charity? If you are running a charity you can donate and invest in 1000 projects globally but voters and taxpayers wont be happy. The future is WITH russia and not without. There is only one planet, you can not exclude a nuclear power as hard as you can try. Yes we have to find a settlement for the war and different security interests but that will happen and has to happen, just wait for trump, he gets it. Anyways, I know that your political position on all of these is mostly on the other side of what i think is the right way but thats democracy People will decide who has the best ideas!

Edited Wednesday at 04:57 PM by Luke

[Luke]

Thats what i meant with call option, a bit more switzerland neutrality for Germany, a bit more diplomacy, bit more entrepreneurship and investment, less regulation, bit more conservatism and US exceptionalism can easily be challenged! (which ultimately would lead to more technological progress and win win benefits for the world)

[Xerxes]

4 hours ago, Dinar said:

Well, you don't have to like it, but the fact is that Jews are 25% of the world's Nobel prize laureates while accounting for 0.2% of the world's population, 

The Jewish people have done a lot for the world. No doubt about it. I learn from them all the time …. (except their idea of co-existence with their very close neighbours) but that is different discussion and I don’t have an answer for it 
 

 

4 hours ago, Dinar said:

……. and 80% of the world's terrorists.  

…. now rerun your math again when you properly classify Nazi and whatever else WHITE people have been up in terrorizing other populations as “terrorism” for the past hundreds of years.  

 

 

[Xerxes]

People in the Western Countries seem to think the terminology “terrorism” applies only on :

 

1) non-whites

2) not if you are committing atrocities on industrial scale. (nazi need not apply) 

3) not if you are well organized and wearing uniforms 

 

 

you guys in this thread do KNOW that Nazi were WHITE Germans people. Formerly Christians.  They didn’t not come from Mars in 1933 and then took off in 1945 

 

They terrorized Europe on a gargantuan scale. Didn’t they ?  Or are all of you so indoctrinated to think in a very specific way when it comes to the term “terrorist” 

[Malmqky]

^

 

I expect pushback on this, but as an American, what we did to the Native Americans should also likely be considered a form of terrorism.

[Blugolds]

1 minute ago, Malmqky said:

^

 

I expect pushback on this, but as an American, what we did to the Native Americans should also likely be considered a form of terrorism.

 

And what we did to the British

 

In the US Civil war, the South would be considered Terrorist, wishing to leave the union etc. 

 

Those who want/force power will always consider those who resist it to be "terrorists". 

 

Often those with/in power have it due to money, influence, connections, size etc. The resistors are generally always at a disadvantage, the only way to have a chance is via unconventional tactics ie. guerrilla warfare etc. 

 

One persons freedom fighter is anothers terrorist. 

 

It is possible to understand someones thinking and sympathize with their situation without agreeing with the way they go about trying to bring change. 

 

 

[Xerxes]

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-53017188.amp
 

My favourite animal. 
 

Leopold II - the king of Belgians 

 

Gods know how many hands his forces “chopped” and killed. Millions they say. 
 

Another WHITE Christian not performing terrorism at a gargantuan scale.  

[cubsfan]

2 hours ago, Malmqky said:

Look at how some Jews treat (kill) innocent Palestinians. Again, I understand why some Jews hate Palestinians. Look at the conflicts on Gaza over the years.  

 

Well, come on, Israelis provided lots of employment for Gaza Palestinians during peacetime, only to have them return as terrorists and murder the families that employed them. Don't expect a lot of goodwill extended after the Oct 7th massacre.  

 

The real suckers were the Israelis the treated the Palestinians with kindness.

[73 Reds]

2 hours ago, Malmqky said:

Ah I see. I’m not disagreeing with anything you’re saying in this quote, except for the last two sentences.

 

As a group, yes Muslims are “worse” than Jews. Again, I believe this is due to environments. War on terror, brainwashing, etc.

 

But I think looking at groups of people and broad stereotypes is still wrong. I know many Muslims that are very good people.

 

Take rednecks for example. I live in the Midwest and literally almost every racist I know is a redneck. Usually because of ignorance and their upbringing. Does that mean rednecks as a group overall are racist? Maybe. But it is wrong to say rednecks are racist imo. Broad statements like that are wrong.

 

I think taking hard stances, claiming things are black and white, oversimplifying things.

 

Just my opinion, and I’m very open to criticism/pushback. I think things like this are very complicated and discussion is good. 
 

EDIT: I’m mainly disputing things are due to genetics or some bullshit dna difference that’s not taught/environmental

Muslims are not worse than Jews.  If you believe that then you, yourself are stereotyping the group.  It is the fundamentalist, extremist ideology of a large segment of their population that also exerts undue control over those born into poverty with essentially nothing that is the very issue.   The key difference is lack of moral leadership. 

Edited Wednesday at 06:06 PM by 73 Reds
missed word

[cubsfan]

^^^^ That is exactly the problem. At least in the USA we have only a 1% Muslim population and extremism has not taken hold. But parts of Europe look like a basket case.

 

 

[73 Reds]

6 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

^^^^ That is exactly the problem. At least in the USA we have only a 1% Muslim population and extremism has not taken hold. But parts of Europe look like a basket case.

 

 

Seems as if the entire 1% serves in Congress and teaches at our institutions of higher learning.  At least they used to provide higher learning - wouldn't give you two nickels today for an ivy league education and certainly wouldn't hire most recent graduates.

Edited Wednesday at 06:16 PM by 73 Reds
words

[cubsfan]

Just now, 73 Reds said:

Seems as if the entire 1% serves in Congress and teaches at our institutions of higher learning.  At least they used they used to provide higher learning - wouldn't give you two nickels today for an ivy league education and certainly wouldn't hire most recent graduates.

 

Can't agree more. My own alma mater has been taken over by Yale grads in adminstration - BLM and defund the police nut cases. They have ruined the university and I have stopped all my giving to them. It's become first a school of political activism and second a place of learning.

 

There is a big opportunity for places like what @james22 is associated with - UATX in Austin to pick up the slack in American education. They will be very successful. These older universities are cranking out brainwashed scolds that are hell bent on a Mao-like cultural revolution.

[73 Reds]

3 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Can't agree more. My own alma mater has been taken over by Yale grads in adminstration - BLM and defund the police nut cases. They have ruined the university and I have stopped all my giving to them. It's become first a school of political activism and second a place of learning.

 

There is a big opportunity for places like what @james22 is associated with - UATX in Austin to pick up the slack in American education. They will be very successful. These older universities are cranking out brainwashed scolds that are hell bent on a Mao-like cultural revolution.

The problem is these radicals have become much more widely accepted and young people at such institutions rarely speak up even if they disagree, for fear of academic or other forms of retribution.  And these students and their parents continue to pump large sums of money into these schools which just perpetuates the problem.  It is revolting to me that some of the most offensive professors and administrators at these schools continue to spew their nonsense and/or look the other way.  Even many alums continue to support them.  The issue is much deeper and much worse than most of us even realize.

[rkbabang]

4 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

The problem is these radicals have become much more widely accepted and young people at such institutions rarely speak up even if they disagree, for fear of academic or other forms of retribution.  And these students and their parents continue to pump large sums of money into these schools which just perpetuates the problem.  It is revolting to me that some of the most offensive professors and administrators at these schools continue to spew their nonsense and/or look the other way.  Even many alums continue to support them.  The issue is much deeper and much worse than most of us even realize.

 

It's just their long march through the institutions. I think history has proven beyond a reasonable doubt that McCarthy was correct and wasn't extreme enough. Collectivists and leftists are always and everywhere a threat to civilization.  And that is exactly what every child should be taught.

[John Hjorth]

Meet your fellow human being at eye level with an a priori positive and open mind.

 

Be intellectually and personally curious about new people who enter your sphere.

 

In case of disagreements during interactions along the way, please ask the only question that matters: ‘Why?’ - And please listen carefully to the answer, and process it accordingly.

 

Prejudice is perhaps the worst sin of all.

[cubsfan]

6 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

Prejudice is perhaps the worst sin of all.

 

Actually, ignoring facts and truth is the worst sin of all.

 

Discussions of the impact of cultures is easily avoided and in many cases is not "politically correct" - but is exactly what is needed if you wish to keep your own culture intact.

[Malmqky]

1 hour ago, cubsfan said:

 

Well, come on, Israelis provided lots of employment for Gaza Palestinians during peacetime, only to have them return as terrorists and murder the families that employed them. Don't expect a lot of goodwill extended after the Oct 7th massacre.  

 

The real suckers were the Israelis the treated the Palestinians with kindness.

 

Yeah I don't blame Israeli's for hating Palestinians after a 9/11 level tradegy such as Oct 7th. Hamas seems to have taken over the country completely.

 

My only problem is the Israeli response, even though I believe it is justified, has/is going to result in a lot of dead, truly innocent Palestinians. And a lot of truly innocent kids radicalized. I don't know a better solution however.

 

It's a vicious cycle.

[Malmqky]

1 hour ago, 73 Reds said:

Muslims are not worse than Jews.  If you believe that then you, yourself are stereotyping the group.  It is the fundamentalist, extremist ideology of a large segment of their population that also exerts undue control over those born into poverty with essentially nothing that is the very issue.   The key difference is lack of moral leadership. 

 

I don't believe "worse" is the right word necessarily, but can't think of anything better. As a group, I think more Muslims have been corrupted than Jews. It has nothing to do with being Muslim imo, but everything to do with brainwashing, etc. like you say.

 

Individually, Muslims are not "worse" than Jews. But as a group? Well, are Jews being brainwashed by fundamentalist, extremist ideology, and poverty on the scale Muslims are in countries like Iran?

 

50 years from now if things somehow changed drastically I'd have no problem saying as a group, Jews are "worse" than Muslims.

 

Perhaps the word I'm looking for is corrupted or radicalized.