Luke

Yeha i am also just pissed and made a lot of mistakes last few years (that havent caused any dmg but opportunity costs were huge)...tencent is still better than exor...at least i see more in tencent...also hard to find alternative (maybe CSU is something where one can allocate with good feeling)...

Just Brutal and the exact opposite of what he promised...

But Spek - the courts are bought. The judges are bought by libtards and democrats!! If they would have properly read the law than they would have sided with trump but they didnt not and trump did read the law fully...we need the tariffs to fight back against all the countries that take advantage of us like china or now canada where they soon will no longer be able to play ice hockey anymore...thank you for your attention to this matter. LUKE.

Trump is no different than the local guy at the fishmarket with his tariffs haha

Yeah its so funny that you can literally break the law - then it takes a year to check if that was actually illegal or not. Then you have the results and then you do something else which takes another year to be checked...talking about a functioning state of law...i guess 50% wanted a dictator anyways so i see already celebrating that Trump can just do what he does to make the US "great" again...

Its okay to own bitcoin and defend Bitcoin owners but its also okay to point out the flaws in the thesis without needing a lecture from Gregmal about returns. And i would have never expected from you to defend this thread the way you do but as i already said, everyone has their own development and thats also for everybody to see on this board....

Lol my portfolio is up 100% the last 3 years so feel free to insult more Is gregmal now also long Bitcoin

You know what Buffett and Munger said regarding Bitcoin - you could have made the same money investing in actual producing assets. If you want you can invest in women underpants or whatever suits you but for my liking id like to stay with real assets and i think the majority on this board is more interested in businesses and not cryptocurrencies which indeed generated a great return over time which furthers the illusion of investing in something real.

And we are on a board to discuss investments and businesses. We can close the board if we just hold gold or BTC xD

We are on COBF - why not buy businesses instead of Gold?

@wachtwoord If you define freedom as the absolute right of the strongest asset holder wins at all costs then you are delusional in thinking this kind of system leads to a stable and peaceful society for the average citizen. It will be a shift from state opression to private capital opression that is accountable to NOBODY and there are no institutions to access it. So its basically a feudal system where early adopters already hold the capital - exactly the same as with the origins of states in feudal societies. You will also destroy upward mobility because young people who want to start a business or buy a home must borrow bitcoin which - because of structural deflation - will become harder and harder to be paid back in the future creating a debt peasant class where workers can never outrun the increasing value of their debt! No more social contracts where democracy can demand change, safety nets, stimulus, tax reforms etc. Just the code and the private owner is the absolute law...you are creating bitcoin fuggers. Imagine a child born in 2050. 99% of bitcoin is already hoaarded by the people who got "in" between 2009 and 2014. These new lords dont have to produce anything, they simply sit on their digital gold while its value increases due to labor and productivity of everyone else. The value of debt will increase over time because the bitcoin demand rises with population and productivity growth so how does a young entrepreneur ever move up? If i start my business tomorrow with 1BTC i am signing a contract to be a permanent slave to this asset because its becoming more expensive and harder to acquire every year...upward mobility would require credit and the ability to have savings but in a bitcoin system the winners were already picked between 2009 and 2014...so a child born in 2050 will be a slave working for a currency they will never own in any significant amount because of structurally different headwinds than with the USD. Now imagine a child born in 2026 with the USD fiat money. With 2% moderate inflation i borrow 100k to start a business. The debt shrinks every year and i am paying back the bank with cheaper dollars then i borrowed. Inflation also pushes up the nominal value of assets slowly over time like my financed home or factory while mortgage remains fixed. Thats how the middle class can build wealth slowly over time. Banks can print the credit to fund people easily which creates way more economic activity (you would argue it would create zombie companies but look at how much wealth and growth was created since fiat was introduced...that would never have been possible with bitcoin). If our bitcoin lords would not lend at all and decide to keep 15million btc in cold storage to be king then there is no credit available for the next generation. You create an aristocracy. BECAUSE cash loses value the wealthy are forced to invest it into the real productive economy to stay ahead of inflation...with bitcoin the smart move would be to do nothing which will lead to stagnation, liquidity traps, huge unemployment, social chaos and the end of the world as we know it.

Election manipulation and oppression existed long time before fiat and central banks...they were enforced by private creditors or feudal lords who held all the capital...Fuggers, Rothschild...private citizens could buy a continents foreign policy (arguably you can still buy elections today looking at campaigns like Obamas or Trumps). There were zero democratic institutions to appeal to if you were stopped lending by a bank. 19th century farmers faced debt inflation with rigid money supply and this will happen with crypto as a replacement for fiat. Additionally the systematic instability - the poverty and the depressions were way worse than with the current fiat money where people made it out of the crash way better than if fiat would not have existed...so i have to hardly disagree with your assesment. So i ask you the same question again: What happens if there is 25% unemployment due to "cleansing". Do you think people will accept 10 years of poverty for the sake of "sound money". If peoples children go hungry because you say so because the math says so they will not buy more bitcoin but burn down cities, attack people who have more bitcoin and eventually burn down the system. What is your answer to the lack of monetary interventions in your system?

Yeah fully agree @Spekulatius and @wachtwoord does not want to provide an alternative solution yet - i hope he does!

Its nonsensical and inconsistent but you refuse to respond to it - thats the spirit of COBF! Sad that you are not interested in meaningful dialogue but you still have the chance to do so!

If you read about economies before state run central banks there was way less freedom for anyone and for the state because the banks controlled everything (for example Jakob Fuggers financing the election of Karl V). You say you dont consider Bitcoin as a currency but then bash fiat, use the terms parasitic class, - what is it you want? Do you own bitcoin? Do you want bitcoin to become the main form of exchange in our economy? Can you make an actual plan instead of criticizing but not providing solutions? I would be really interested to hear your solutions but i fear that you might dodge to answer that.

Well - you clearly dont seem to be interested in a discussion because you would have responded to me with content instead of asking for a rewrite of a comment (lol). I told you the reason for the 2% inflation expectation - its not a political scheme to steal from the productive class and keep them down - this happens by other forms of political engineering. But anyways thought you would respond which you didnt so thats that. As learned from Greg the past few years another useless comment and also not related to the argument - sad development.

IF you think that the market with bitcoin will self-correct then you dont understand the human costs behind the "libertarian" crypto model. If wages fall and you create a deflationary environment because "let the market find the right price" you forget that people have fixed costs or mortgages, electricity, food. If my salary drops by 30% because of a market correction but my debt remains fixed i will default, lose my home and go to the streets. A 10 year correction with 20%+ unemployment isnt an economic phase because it will lead to the rise of extremism and overthrowing of the government. If shocks like 2020 unproductive businesses that fail arent zombie companies but they are our local grocery stores, doctors etc that couldnt survive a capital freeze... The social unrest we see today is NOT because of fiat but because the government did not do the right job in taxation, investment and job creation. They have allowed monopolies in sectors where monopolies are natural (housing) or electricity etc where you are forced to pay these prices. Minimum wage is still at the same level since years in the US for example while its an important tool to drive wage growth and domestic demand...fiat was never a stable value asset - if you want that you need to buy a business. Can you name a single modern industrialized nation that successfully navigated a major global crisis using a strictly fixed-supply currency without experiencing a total social or political collapse? Do you want to be the man responsible for the consequences and replace the current central banker?

Well - since you seem to be promoting crypto and bitcoin as a replacement for currencies like the euro, yuan or USD i dont think you are much smarter than those central bankers but i am curious what your master plan is

Neither school is "hard science" like physics. But we can see the effects of policies that fall into their specific schools and we can also predict what would happen if you follow one idea or the other. If you would have had bitcoin as a global currency during corona we would probably had civil war and way more damage than the keynesian approach governments took. Most modern economists argue for low predicatable inflation around 2% to encourage spending and investment rather than hoarding. A strictly deflationary currency like Bitcoin can lead to a "liquidity trap" where nobody spends because their money will be worth more tomorrow, potentially stalling economic growth. If you fix the money supply but the population and productivity grows each unit of currency must represent a larger slice of the economic pie and with bitcoin has to lead to structural deflation. When an economy hits a recession a central bank needs expansionary monetary policy by lowering interest rates or increasing the money supply for example. With bitcoin there is nothing to pull, if the economy is down you cannot stimulate it. Demand collapses, shops close, factories stop producing, unemployment spikes and you have a spiral that will lead to a complete social breakdown if you cant intervene (great depression was the perfect example what happens when you are on gold standard and couldnt kickstart the engine). How would you borrow money with bitcoin? you borrow 1 bitcoin and due to persistent scarcity you owe 2 bitcoins over time crushing homeowners and business owners? The flexibility of fiat money allowed for the industrial and technological expansion of the 20th century. Bitcoin is a terrible operating system for a running modern and complex nation. Please elaborate how you will run our economy with bitcoin as a currency because reading your reply it seems like you think you understood it all.

You are ignoring something. Bitcoin only ever got big with the Tech Hype and Covid. You had a small hype spike in 2017 but it only got big when gambling and WSB got big. If you look in the past behind 2017 its an irrelevant asset mostly that got some traction because of its usage on the dark net for drugs etc. Its not a brilliant new asset or something. It was a payment tool for illegal shit and then got hyped by tech dudes and gamblers furthering this sad bubble.

It mostly attracts people that do not understand enough about economics and buy into some of the promises people make like saylor that bitcoin will reach 1m USD per bitcoin. People are desperate and need money and they have seen stocks do 50000% so why shouldnt this new bitcoin thing which is up thousands of percentages already

Folks - if you look at modern economics and the role of currencies in economies then there is no way for Bitcoin to ever be used by states to run our economies because it is deflationary in a successful economy. The issuer of the currency always has to be an intelligent government that intervenes in the market and controls variables like inflation and wage growth and stimulates when necessary and cools down when necessary. We have been told for decades now by neoliberal economists to engage in a model that serves private enterprise and capital but lowers overall growth for the overall economy. Bitcoin is a nice technological invention but can not be priced and will never be broadly used. It might have some purpose in third world countries or to hide payment tracks so it will obviously never go to zero now that many mostly fishy services like piracy etc get paid in crypto and Bitcoin but it will also never reach the scale some wish it does. As an investor its unbuyable and if you do buy it because you speculate on it going up further then you are no longer investing but gambling and thats fine to do or not.

Stellantis crashing hard and Exor also going down...

Alright - we all understood you enjoy fascism. Only problem will be that once your rights are slowly stripped away they will also come for your rights and then you will end up in an oligarchy where also our "native americans" like @cubsfan (lol) will suffer...

@whatstheofficerproblem AMD also down and you liked it didnt you?