Iran - Israel - Gaza Conflict

[Xerxes]

7 minutes ago, james22 said:

It's not unsophisticated or naive to side with the Western democracy here, guys.

Is that your only criteria for right and wrong 

[Parsad]

52 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

 

 

Genocide is a dangerous word. 

 

From my perspective Israel is NOT committing genocide …. Not yet anyways.

 

Me and The Economist are on the same page on this. 

 

but I am still dwelling on this. 
 

Was Germany committing genocide in the mid-30s (pre concentration camp era) or was it only in the 40s ?  (When the action started)

 

To be sure Israel is committing war crimes. That is for sure. And these are not few bad apples as you like to think. When your government is filled by right-wing messianic figures demanding the creation of “greater Israel”, well guess what ? Some “people” got to go. That view permeates some in the IDF as does the nonsense coming from Ayatollah permeating IRGC. 
 

Personally I always believe pre Oct 7th that IDF was a just organization. For years I admired their contribution, but I just cannot accept somethings that I see. But that is just me. 

 

Lastly Sanjeev, you got to stop comparing Israel with US. The United States rightly or wrongly did some things, but it never had designs or incentive in “eliminating” entire group of people. Why ? Because it was NOT from the region. Its ambitions was geopolitical in the Middle East. So your comment is not valid. 

 

Israel has a stake and interest in “removing” people. Now whether it actually has state-level design or not. That is another matter.

 

I personally do not believe so. But like I said it has a racist government that is pushing that way. 
 

 

 

 

You had a born-again Christian, hard-core right wing leader as President of the United States after 9/11!  People forget, but Dubya had people on his committee that were as "fundamentalist" as Netanyahu and his committee.  Remember the "axis of evil" speech!  Even Trump isn't like that...he really has no allegiance to anyone or anything except money and his name.

 

There were war crimes in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq.  Yet only a handful of prosecutions by the U.S. government of their own soldiers.  Remember Abu Gharib...Blackwater...this occurs in every war.

 

Lastly, you have it backwards in the Middle East.  Arab countries want Israel eliminated and they have real designs on doing so.  Thus you have Netanyahu in power again...and I agree he should be in prison!  But like Dubya, he was on duty when the terrorist strike occurred.  How he's handling it...I don't like it, but Israel has every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas.  Cheers!

 

 

[Parsad]

1 hour ago, Xerxes said:

actually this wrong as well. 
 

it is the reverse. It is mostly Arab government that wanted (pre 10/07) good relation with Israel but cannot get too close due to their people being pro-Palestine. 
 

and also I cannot think of any Arab country that has fundamentalist in power. Sure they have autocrats and dictators but not fundamentalist. Iran does however. 

 

What's the difference when they have the same agenda?!  Who funds Hamas?  Who funds Hezbollah?  Who funds ISIS?

 

If you're naive enough to think that most Arab countries want good relations with Israel, then who the heck is funding these terrorist groups?

 

Cheers!

[Dinar]

1 hour ago, ourkid8 said:

 

The idea that Israel is defending itself is absurd as the notion that a rapist is defending itself from the victim - Israel is the occupier!

 

Israel is not the occupier, Jews have lived in Israel, Gaza, West Bank (Judea and Samaria) for three thousand years continuosly.  Arabs came in 1600 years later.   Do you also believe that Armenians and Greeks have the right to rape and murder every Turk in Turkey since Turks murdered two million of them in the 1910s-1920s and kicked the rest out?   If you live in North America, or Australia, do you believe that Indians/Aborigines have the right to murder you in cold blood?   If not, why not?  

[dwy000]

Iran stating matter is concluded now.  We'll that was quick.  Glad it didn't escalate. 

[Xerxes]

44 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

What's the difference when they have the same agenda?!  Who funds Hamas?  Who funds Hezbollah?  Who funds ISIS?

 

If you're naive enough to think that most Arab countries want good relations with Israel, then who the heck is funding these terrorist groups?

 

Cheers!

Sanjeev

i am many things but not naive or lacking knowledge when it comes to Middle East politics. 

I said it exactly as it is. 
 

Arab governments have been working hard to get close to Israel (to balance Iran) — only impediment is their own people that have a strong pro-Palestine point of view. 
 

 

 

Edited April 14 by Xerxes

[Xerxes]

50 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

You had a born-again Christian, hard-core right wing leader as President of the United States after 9/11!  People forget, but Dubya had people on his committee that were as "fundamentalist" as Netanyahu and his committee.  Remember the "axis of evil" speech!  Even Trump isn't like that...he really has no allegiance to anyone or anything except money and his name.

 

There were war crimes in Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iraq.  Yet only a handful of prosecutions by the U.S. government of their own soldiers.  Remember Abu Gharib...Blackwater...this occurs in every war.

 

Lastly, you have it backwards in the Middle East.  Arab countries want Israel eliminated and they have real designs on doing so.  Thus you have Netanyahu in power again...and I agree he should be in prison!  But like Dubya, he was on duty when the terrorist strike occurred.  How he's handling it...I don't like it, but Israel has every right to defend themselves and go after Hamas.  Cheers!

 

 

 

US didn’t not commit genocide in the Middle East. But they committed war crimes. 
 

 

Can you tell me which Arab country (or countries) has design to eliminate Israel. 
 

I am not talking about Iran and its proxies 
 

 

[Parsad]

10 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

Sanjeev

i am many things but not naive or lacking knowledge when it comes to Middle East politics. 

I said it exactly as it is. 
 

Arab governments have been working hard to get close to Israel (to balance Iran) — only impediment is their own people that have a strong pro-Palestine point of view. 
 

 

 

 

I'm pro-Palestinian as well.  I'm also pro-Israeli. 

 

I'm for a two-nation state solution, but not one with Hamas at the table.  

 

Cheers!

 

 

[Parsad]

12 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

 

US didn’t not commit genocide in the Middle East. But they committed war crimes. 
 

 

Can you tell me which Arab country (or countries) has design to eliminate Israel. 
 

I am not talking about Iran and its proxies 
 

 

 

How can you exclude Iran and its proxies?  It's like saying, well tell me all of the politicians who are against abortion except Trump and his proxies.

 

There are only four Arab countries that recognize Israel's sovereignty.  The rest will not recognize Israel unless they recognize Palestine.  And almost none of them will condemn Hamas' actions.  

 

Cheers!

[Parsad]

15 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

 

US didn’t not commit genocide in the Middle East. But they committed war crimes. 
 

 

 

It's the same thing in Israel-Gaza...it isn't genocide, otherwise they would kill off every Palestinian they came across or put them in camps.  These are war crimes. 

 

You guys are calling it genocide in Gaza.  

 

Cheers!

[Xerxes]

16 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

It's the same thing in Israel-Gaza...it isn't genocide, otherwise they would kill off every Palestinian they came across or put them in camps.  These are war crimes. 

 

You guys are calling it genocide in Gaza.  

 

Cheers!

yet in the very first line in my post I did say very clearly that it is not a genocide. … not yet anyways. 
 

That said, it is not comparable to the US case studies for the reasons I pointed out. 

[Xerxes]

27 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

How can you exclude Iran and its proxies?  It's like saying, well tell me all of the politicians who are against abortion except Trump and his proxies.

 

There are only four Arab countries that recognize Israel's sovereignty.  The rest will not recognize Israel unless they recognize Palestine.  And almost none of them will condemn Hamas' actions.  

 

Cheers!

How ? because Iran is not an Arab country. 
 

my and your statement were about Arab countries, so I thought we were talking about Arab countries. Did we not ?
 

so again, which Arab “government” do you feel wish Israel to be removed ? 
 

And again understanding that we are not talking about Iran (non Arab) and its minions. 
 

ps: don’t get me wrong Arab government are not exactly “thrilled” and in awe of Israel. But they know now that Israel is not going anywhere. It is done. 

Edited April 14 by Xerxes

[Ulti]

Attacks on Israel Largely 'Performative,' Says Former Senior U.S. Official

By

Laurence Norman

Iran's attacks on Israel appear to have been performative, said Michael Singh, a former senior director for Middle East affairs at the U.S. National Security Council. This was "a slow-moving, thoroughly telegraphed, and ultimately unsuccessful retaliation," he said.

Israel said it expects further waves as part of the attack. "The event has yet to end," Israel military spokesman Daniel Hagari said. Israel said it had intercepted dozens of surface-to-surface missiles, though some had reached Israeli soil. Dozens of drones were also intercepted, Israel said.

Singh, who is now at the Washington Institute, said the attack "showcased Iran’s reluctance for direct confrontation with Israel, and...highlighted Israel’s close military cooperation with Arab and international partners."

"The question now is whether Israel will pull its punch in return so as to allow Iran’s apparent failure to linger, or whether it will feel sharper retaliation is needed," he said.

"The Biden Administration is undoubtedly pushing for the former in hopes that they can count this crisis averted," Singh said.

[Hektor]

3 hours ago, Parsad said:

Sorry, force of habit!  Cheers!

I know, pulling your leg 

[ourkid8]

1 hour ago, Parsad said:

You guys are calling it genocide in Gaza.  

 

Can you honestly say Israel is not committing any of the following acts?  

 

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2^[7]

Edited April 14 by ourkid8

[ourkid8]

2 hours ago, Dinar said:

Israel is not the occupier

 

So you are saying Gaza is not an open-air prison and Palestinians are free to leave at any time without permission?    come on, now you are just being silly.  

 

[Viking]

What i do not understand is where Hamas fits into this war. I think they are the duly elected government of the people of Gaza. I think they are supported by a majority of the population of Gaza (i have read support is as high as 70%). 
 

i also think it is Hamas’ (stated?) objective to kill every Israeli citizen. That ‘River to the sea’ thing. Does Hamas not control education (everything) in Gaza? Are kids in Gaza not taught at a young age that killing Israeli’s is a good thing?
 

Listening to the calls that Hamas fighters sent to their family back in Gaza - as they were murdering Israeli’s - was frightening. It provided great insight into the mindset of Hamas and many of the people in Gaza.
 

I hear people/news organizations talking all the time about Palestine. NOBODY wants to talk about Hamas. Which to me is completely bizarre. Hamas controls Gaza - as long as it is in power, it is effectively Gaza. 
 

We might get a solution in Gaza when Hamas says publicly that it agrees to Israel’s right to exist. Of course, that will never happen. How do you negotiate with a political entity that has a stated aim to wipe you out?

 

How do you agree to a two state solution when one side only wants to wipe the other side out? We are so naive in the West. 
 

I wish people would replace Palestinian with Hamas when they post on this topic. 

 

https://www.americanpurpose.com/articles/from-the-river-to-the-sea/

 

Edited April 14 by Viking

[Xerxes]

 

Saw this on some site. Gaza demographics is of very young age:

 

61% under age of 24. majority of these were born after Hamas took over in 2006. 
 

That means the majority of the people of Gaza just happen to be born under Hamas rule. That is all they have seen and not exactly chose them. 

 

[Xerxes]

58 minutes ago, Viking said:

What i do not understand is where Hamas fits into this war. I think they are the duly elected government of the people of Gaza. I think they are supported by a majority of the population of Gaza (i have read support is as high as 70%). 
 

i also think it is Hamas’ (stated?) objective to kill every Israeli citizen. That ‘River to the sea’ thing. Does Hamas not control education (everything) in Gaza? Are kids in Gaza not taught at a young age that killing Israeli’s is a good thing?
 

Listening to the calls that Hamas fighters sent to their family back in Gaza - as they were murdering Israeli’s - was frightening. It provided great insight into the mindset of Hamas and many of the people in Gaza.
 

I hear people/news organizations talking all the time about Palestine. NOBODY wants to talk about Hamas. Which to me is completely bizarre. Hamas controls Gaza - as long as it is in power, it is effectively Gaza. 
 

We might get a solution in Gaza when Hamas says publicly that it agrees to Israel’s right to exist. Of course, that will never happen. How do you negotiate with a political entity that has a stated aim to wipe you out?

 

How do you agree to a two state solution when one side only wants to wipe the other side out? We are so naive in the West. 
 

I wish people would replace Palestinian with Hamas when they post on this topic. 

 

https://www.americanpurpose.com/articles/from-the-river-to-the-sea/

 

 

Hamas is what it is. A terrorist organization that needs to be wiped out. 
 

Now given the things that you just wrote and that we agree what Hamas is, can you explain why Netanyahu was funding Hamas in the past couple of years, and using it to undermine PA in West Bank. North Americans may be naive but Bibi is not.

 

Explain to me how any of that and settlement expansion was meant to forge a path forward toward the two-state solution. Why Netanyahu was funneling Qatari money to Hamas ? 

the reality is that neither the Israeli nor the Palestinian were and are interested in two-state solution.

 

Like I said they deserve each other. Since they are both so hateful. 

 

 

ps: this last statement is not intended to offend Arabs, Israeli, Jews and Muslims. I love them all. 
 

But it is 100% intended to offend all decision makers and their racist brainwashed lackeys on both sides and everywhere. 
 

 

Edited April 14 by Xerxes

[changegonnacome]

Wow much kudos to Israel….best I can tell from reports their missile defense systems pretty much bested these attacks .

 

It’s embarrassing for Iran how little by way of damage they were able to inflict here…..and quite foolish in a way to reveal how weak they are relative to Israel’s military capability….hopefully this reality seeps through to the Iranian people so that they might constrain their leaders….it would be insane for that countries leadership to pursue a straight out conflict with Israel….but these sectarian regimes don’t live in anything approximating the real world…they hear god whispering in their ear.

 

 

[Parsad]

5 hours ago, ourkid8 said:

 

Can you honestly say Israel is not committing any of the following acts?  

 

Article 2 of the Convention defines genocide as:

... any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial or religious group, as such:

(a) Killing members of the group;

(b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;

(c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;

(d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;

(e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, Article 2^[7]

 

If you go solely by that list, then the U.S. and many countries around the world have been involved in genocide over the last two centuries.  

 

Cheers!

[Xerxes]

18 minutes ago, changegonnacome said:

Wow much kudos to Israel….best I can tell from reports their missile defense systems pretty much bested these attacks .

 

It’s embarrassing for Iran how little by way of damage they were able to inflict here…..and quite foolish in a way to reveal how weak they are relative to Israel’s military capability….hopefully this reality seeps through to the Iranian people so that they might constrain their leaders….it would be insane for that countries leadership to pursue a straight out conflict with Israel….but these sectarian regimes don’t live in anything approximating the real world…they hear god whispering in their ear.

 

 

Really .. lol.

 

Where you expecting the rides of Rohirim out of a scene from the Lord of the Rings. Or perhaps the Ayatollah on a back of a camel, marching toward Jerusalem like a scene out of Riddly Scott’ Kingdom of Heaven. Extended Edition no less. 
 

Iran and Israel have been at it like two wild dogs for the best of the past several decades. Most of the time covertly. Sometimes overtly. When it is overtly it becomes state to state. 
 

Even shadow wars have rules of engagement. As silly as it is. Assassination, cyber wars, proxy wars are considered “covert”.
 

Everything else is that is state-to-state is considered “overt”.
 

Israel understands this. Iran understands this and US governments understands this.
 

The only folks that don’t understand any of this are normal everyday folks based in Europe and North America, who SUDDENLY gets interested in a topic, and than move to their Netflix show once it is no longer exciting. Before being suddenly interested in a new topic. 

 

So yeah i don’t think the mullahs (that somehow survived for 4 decades like a parasites despite it all, that outlived many regimes) were going to get suddenly stupid and unleash their deterrent arsenal from south of Lebanon. And launch actual ballistic missiles from Iran.  (Despite their news coverage)

 

You guys just had to watch SkyNews that has excellent coverage. And great defense analysts talking.

 

[Dinar]

10 hours ago, ourkid8 said:

 

So you are saying Gaza is not an open-air prison and Palestinians are free to leave at any time without permission?    come on, now you are just being silly.  

 

You stated that Israelies are occupiers, and therefore they can be killed and raped with impunity.  Using your logic, anybody in North America who is not 100% descendant of Indians should be murdered since they are all occupiers.  Also, 100% of Turks must killed as well since they are on Greek and Armenian land.  So do you support killing all Turks in Turkey and all 100% non American Indians in North America?  If not, why do you support killing Jews but not other "occupiers"?

[ourkid8]

4 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

If you go solely by that list, then the U.S. and many countries around the world have been involved in genocide over the last two centuries.  

 

Cheers!

 

That's UN's definition under article 2 of Genocide. At least now based on the definitions of the international community we can say Israel is committing Genocide.  

[Gregmal]

16 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

 

I do remember it, too, althougn while didenn't sell anything because of that. I disagree with you about if this was a big deal a not. To  me, it was, still is, an continue to be.

 

That said, thats about what to to get out of @Lucas sensationalism / meain stream news media posting style in this topic, by now.

If this was a big deal for the investment landscape...how is that? Because the only "effects" I saw, especially now in hind site were:

1) short term volatility(so what unless youre selling newsletters or gambling on 0DTE crap)

2) A speculator wet dream to run up energy prices over the next few months which then warped the CPI index everyone is obsessed with...like didnt we have $120 oil for the summer 22 9 prints?

3) gave US government an excuse to steal peoples assets

 

So the majority of the market participants had no business getting all riled up. This looks to be another one. The media and the subscription sellers seem to just always need to have a new reason for their daily/weekly "this is a really big deal and we're on the precipice of a huge market collapse" snake oil to sell.