cubsfan Posted May 12 Share Posted May 12 One perspective is that Bebe is incredibly pissed at Biden, which most Americans are. What kind of a President takes an aid bill passed by Congress, and then selectively stops the legislation for the Israeli portion because he is getting heat in an election year? The man is a coward and should be impeached. He's got no moral compass at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boilermaker75 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 11 hours ago, Sweet said: Nobody said the Allies fought the war to save the Jews Dinar. Netanyahu didn’t say that either, otherwise I wouldn’t have a quarrel. Netanyahu said ‘nobody came to our aid’ in reference to the Holocaust. That is demonstrably false irrespective of the motivation of the allies. My uncle was in the British army and was captured by the Nazis fighting his way up Italy, he spent the rest of the war in a Nazi POW camp. The Americans weren’t fighting the war to save my uncle, but it was the ‘yanks’ as he called them, who liberated his POW camp and provided food and medical assistance - he was 7 stone and weeks from death. He was forever grateful to the Americans. And that’s the problem I have with his comments. Unbelievably ungrateful. You and others have focused on motivation of the war and not the outcomes. The Jews of Europe were saved by the allies in same way that my uncle was saved from starvation in a POW camp by the Americans, even if the war wasn’t about either of them. My Dad was a Yank and captured by the Nazi's. He was in Stalag 11-B. The Brits freed him. He lost 70 pounds in the year he was a POW and had health issues the rest of his life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 1 hour ago, boilermaker75 said: My Dad was a Yank and captured by the Nazi's. He was in Stalag 11-B. The Brits freed him. He lost 70 pounds in the year he was a POW and had health issues the rest of his life. The POWs didn’t get treated very well. Apparently it took a very long time for my uncle to recover. I don’t know what camp he was in or what American unit liberated the camp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweet Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 4 hours ago, boilermaker75 said: My Dad was a Yank and captured by the Nazi's. He was in Stalag 11-B. The Brits freed him. He lost 70 pounds in the year he was a POW and had health issues the rest of his life. I just found the camp my uncle was in by searching the archive available online. I wasn't aware they held this information. He was Stalag VIIA Moosburg and was liberated by the US 14th Armoured Division. Never knew that until now. What was your fathers health issues for the remainder of his life? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 Without ongoing hostilities, the only way out for Netanyahu is resignation. Defy the world, do Rafah, and retire to glory as the 'saviour' who rid Israel of Hamas. Thing is, Netanyahu isn't Dayan or Ben-Gurion, and after Rafah - both Hamas and Hezbollah will still be there. All that happens is that labour dries up, and the sons and daughters of those killed in these hostilities - ensure another 2-3 decades of ongoing conflict. An eye for an eye. All hail Netanyahu. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 37 minutes ago, SharperDingaan said: Without ongoing hostilities, the only way out for Netanyahu is resignation. Defy the world, do Rafah, and retire to glory as the 'saviour' who rid Israel of Hamas. Thing is, Netanyahu isn't Dayan or Ben-Gurion, and after Rafah - both Hamas and Hezbollah will still be there. All that happens is that labour dries up, and the sons and daughters of those killed in these hostilities - ensure another 2-3 decades of ongoing conflict. An eye for an eye. All hail Netanyahu. SD worse. There could be something else there in the cesspool day after tomorrow. There would be no shortages of candidates. There ain’t no f&$;ing marshal plan being marshalled. Bibi has done more harm to the fabric Israeli society than any Palestinian movement could have in decades. Now he is trying his hand at the populist angle as he reopens wounds from WW2. “We will do it ourselves, if American don’t give us 2,000 Ib bombs” sob sob Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boilermaker75 Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 (edited) 4 hours ago, Sweet said: I just found the camp my uncle was in by searching the archive available online. I wasn't aware they held this information. He was Stalag VIIA Moosburg and was liberated by the US 14th Armoured Division. Never knew that until now. What was your fathers health issues for the remainder of his life? My Dad had a heart condition. The US army listed him as partially disabled. He was freed by the British 7th armored division. It was front page news in the Chicago Tribune and how our family found out. During the winter they would sleep three in a bunk to try to stay warm. Tribune1.pdf Edited May 13 by boilermaker75 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubsfan Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 Oh my, now all of a sudden, Bebe is supposed to stop and rollover when he has Hamas on the verge of defeat. Avoid the dirty work and criticism - pull out and wait until the next terrorist attack that kills thousands of Israelis. The only thing terrorists and their brainwashed backers understand is strength - and they are witnessing it in spades. Could have all been avoided if braindead Palestinians released all hostages (yeah Americans too) and turned over the Hamas planners. But no, they rather suffer with the consequences of their actions and blame Netanyahu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValueArb Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 2 hours ago, SharperDingaan said: Without ongoing hostilities, the only way out for Netanyahu is resignation. Defy the world, do Rafah, and retire to glory as the 'saviour' who rid Israel of Hamas. Thing is, Netanyahu isn't Dayan or Ben-Gurion, and after Rafah - both Hamas and Hezbollah will still be there. All that happens is that labour dries up, and the sons and daughters of those killed in these hostilities - ensure another 2-3 decades of ongoing conflict. An eye for an eye. All hail Netanyahu. SD One hope is that the end result empowers moderates in both Palestine and Israel. I'm hoping Hamas and Hezbollah will never be given the reins to political power again, and Bibi is retired to face his corruption charges. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 1 hour ago, cubsfan said: Oh my, now all of a sudden, Bebe is supposed to stop and rollover when he has Hamas on the verge of defeat. Avoid the dirty work and criticism - pull out and wait until the next terrorist attack that kills thousands of Israelis. The only thing terrorists and their brainwashed backers understand is strength - and they are witnessing it in spades. Could have all been avoided if braindead Palestinians released all hostages (yeah Americans too) and turned over the Hamas planners. But no, they rather suffer with the consequences of their actions and blame Netanyahu. what is your proposed solution in clearing the cesspool …. on the day after ? it cannot be just about hostages. Israel needs long term solution and not just a “mission accomplished” photo op with the conquest of Rafah on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Israel is great at getting tactical short term wins, but it keeps planting seeds ensuring that it loses the long game, even as it wins the short game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubsfan Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 28 minutes ago, Xerxes said: what is your proposed solution in clearing the cesspool …. on the day after ? it cannot be just about hostages. Israel needs long term solution and not just a “mission accomplished” photo op with the conquest of Rafah on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Israel is great at getting tactical short term wins, but it keeps planting seeds ensuring that it loses the long game, even as it wins the short game. That's a very good question @Xerxes A decent nation and neighbor would release the hostages and overthrow their terrorist government if they wish to live in peace. If the Palestinians will not do it - then the Israelis will - regardless of who the Israeli leader is.. The ONLY long term solution is: Hamas gone and destroyed. You have a much weaker nation (Gaza) picking a fight with a much more powerful nation (Israel), that can completely destroy them - and should. I doubt they expected this reaction - but they earned it. A terrorist nation is NOT to be trusted. You might say, this was the last straw. No negotiation until an unconditional surrender. Japan/Germany learned the hard way. No different here. Then you can talk about a "Marshal Plan" - if there is to be one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnofeisone Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 36 minutes ago, Xerxes said: what is your proposed solution in clearing the cesspool …. on the day after ? it cannot be just about hostages. Israel needs long term solution and not just a “mission accomplished” photo op with the conquest of Rafah on the deck of an aircraft carrier. Israel is great at getting tactical short term wins, but it keeps planting seeds ensuring that it loses the long game, even as it wins the short game. I like the plan that shares oversight of Gaza between Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Israel, and the US. Everyone has interest here. -Coalition countries appoint ministers who then build out their cabinets—nobody from Hamas, PIJ, etc. - in exchange for aid/trade. - Armed wings of terror organizations must be dissolved. - Dissolve any UN presence in WB and Gaza. -In 10 years, Palestinians will vote on who governs them. -In 20 years, assuming there are no cross-border skirmishes and things normalize, the establishment of the Palestinian state. Obviously, borders will have to be agreed upon, but it feel like 1967 is a fair swap, but Palestinians surrender their (imaginary) right of return. Steep price for both sides but worth in the long term. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulti Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 44 minutes ago, Xerxes said: what is your proposed solution in clearing the cesspool …. on the day after ? Rationally, I ( as well as many more smarter people than me on this issue think the following. 1- A two state solution in combination with moderate Arab nations ( Jordon, Saudi Arabia etc.) and Israel signing a defense pact as a deterent for Iran and its proxies. "Yet, a substitute to indefinite occupation does exist: handing policing to a multinational, Arab-led force, whilst ceding political and administrative control over Gazans’ daily lives to the Palestinian Authority. The Israeli military would maintain control over the Israel-Gaza border. At the same time, Israel would need to end its blockade of the territory to permit reconstruction. " https://warontherocks.com/2023/12/israels-gaza-ground-invasion-and-the-return-of-strategic-depth/ 2- New elections and removal of the far right nut jobs as well as Bibi.. Disgusting that these sponges on Israeli society are in charge and dont fight..https://foreignpolicy.com/2024/03/08/israel-netanyahu-ultra-orthodox-military-exemption-hamas-gaza-war/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 2 hours ago, lnofeisone said: I like the plan that shares oversight of Gaza between Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Israel, and the US. Everyone has interest here. missing Qatar and Turkey. The two of them constitute the other “power block” in the Sunni world that competes with the countries you mentioned: UAE, Saudi and Egypt And if Qatar/Turkey are ignored, they would just undermine it. And unlike Iranian influence in Palestine which is opportunistic, Levant is well within Turkey’ zone of interest and historical narrative. Once the two Sunni power blocks are aligned vis a vis at creating a sustainable future in Gaza, than the Iranian influence in Palestine will disappear and chokes out, because it no longer has a willing host. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 2 hours ago, Ulti said: 1- A two state solution in combination with moderate Arab nations ( Jordon, Saudi Arabia etc.) and Israel signing a defense pact as a deterent for Iran and its proxies. to be fair, it is coalition, don’t think Bibi had much choice, if he want to keep his job. Defense pact is not an easy with his cabinet composition. ——— To put it bluntly, Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman has put his country’s worst religious extremists in jail, while Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has put his country’s worst religious extremists in his cabinet https://www.nytimes.com/2024/05/02/opinion/israel-saudi-arabia.html Of course, Saudi Arabia is an absolute monarchy and Israel is a democracy. M.B.S. can order changes that no Israeli prime minister can. Still, leaders in both have to gauge what will enable them to stay in power, and those instincts are driving Netanyahu to make Israel more like the worst of the old Saudi Arabia and M.B.S. to make Saudi Arabia more like the best of the old Israel. …… The result of Netanyahu’s alliance with the far right is that Israel can’t take advantage of the tectonic shift in Saudi Arabia — with its offer to normalize relations with the Jewish state and open a road for Israel with the rest of the Muslim world — because doing so would require Israel to pursue a pathway with Palestinians to create two states for two indigenous peoples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ulti Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 43 minutes ago, Xerxes said: he result of Netanyahu’s alliance with the far right is that Israel can’t take advantage of the tectonic shift in Saudi Arabia — with its offer to normalize relations with the Jewish state and open a road for Israel with the rest of the Muslim world — because doing so would require Israel to pursue a pathway with Palestinians to create two states for two indigenous peoples. Yep and that’s why I hope there is a special circle in Dante’s version of hell the Arafat is forever getting tormented in Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValueArb Posted May 13 Share Posted May 13 5 hours ago, lnofeisone said: I like the plan that shares oversight of Gaza between Saudi Arabia, Egypt, the UAE, Israel, and the US. Everyone has interest here. -Coalition countries appoint ministers who then build out their cabinets—nobody from Hamas, PIJ, etc. - in exchange for aid/trade. - Armed wings of terror organizations must be dissolved. - Dissolve any UN presence in WB and Gaza. -In 10 years, Palestinians will vote on who governs them. -In 20 years, assuming there are no cross-border skirmishes and things normalize, the establishment of the Palestinian state. Obviously, borders will have to be agreed upon, but it feel like 1967 is a fair swap, but Palestinians surrender their (imaginary) right of return. Steep price for both sides but worth in the long term. I would never advocate turning our backs on Israel until this war is won, but we have ZERO interest in the middle east. Our national wealth has been drained and our military has been used as an unpaid security force by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. Time for them to start working out things among themselves and enforcing freedom of navigation on their own. After the war Israel can decide whether it's a theocracy or a free democracy and proceed accordingly. We should pull out of every base in the middle east unless we start getting paid for our services, and reduce our flood of aid to arab states and israel to a trickle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnofeisone Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 4 hours ago, Xerxes said: missing Qatar and Turkey. The two of them constitute the other “power block” in the Sunni world that competes with the countries you mentioned: UAE, Saudi and Egypt And if Qatar/Turkey are ignored, they would just undermine it. And unlike Iranian influence in Palestine which is opportunistic, Levant is well within Turkey’ zone of interest and historical narrative. Once the two Sunni power blocks are aligned vis a vis at creating a sustainable future in Gaza, than the Iranian influence in Palestine will disappear and chokes out, because it no longer has a willing host. You are right. Qatar and Turkey even if Turkey is a one of the most problematic from many facets. There is a great book about how US dealt with ISIS and Turkey was castigated for being inept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lnofeisone Posted May 14 Share Posted May 14 1 hour ago, ValueArb said: I would never advocate turning our backs on Israel until this war is won, but we have ZERO interest in the middle east. Our national wealth has been drained and our military has been used as an unpaid security force by Saudi Arabia, Qatar, etc. Time for them to start working out things among themselves and enforcing freedom of navigation on their own. After the war Israel can decide whether it's a theocracy or a free democracy and proceed accordingly. We should pull out of every base in the middle east unless we start getting paid for our services, and reduce our flood of aid to arab states and israel to a trickle. I generally agree. I think the tie up is still due to energy. China will also move into the neighborhood if US vacates but let them deal with the havoc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted May 17 Share Posted May 17 The COIN guy gets it right !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luca Posted May 20 Author Share Posted May 20 https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 17 minutes ago, Luca said: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war Good. Lots of great news this morning. Call a spade a spade. Both psychopaths are cut from the same cloths. They make good company with Vladimir Putin. All optics, but I’ll take it. I would put Raisi there as well (given that he oversaw massive protest crackdown in Iran in 2022-22), fortunately for the rest of us, he was stupid enough to fly his helicopter into the fog in the mountainous region in Azerbaijan. He “CTRL-ALT-DEL” himself. To think of it, he was also president when the IRGC shutdown the airliner, and did his best to harass the family of the survivors. Poetic justice. He went out the exact same way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubsfan Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 (edited) Interesting that Netanyahu is a war crimes candidate. Especially now that the Israelis have discovered 700 tunnels under Rafah and 50 smuggling tunnels to Egypt. The ICC is a joke, of course, as they don't realize Israel's right to self defense - and a right to free their Israeli hostages. Like the UN, these international organizations are corrupt - have they indicted UNRWA for storing weapons/rockets for Hamas, while Hamas lobs 7000 rockets into Israel from Palestinian homes? Of course not! War is ugly and should be a last resort - unfortunately , this is how you have to deal with a terrorist nation where both the population and every institution in Gaza is involved with terrorism and holding hostages. The Palestinians will be forced to learn the hard way. Edited May 20 by cubsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cubsfan Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 Yeah, nothing to see here - as the UN is totally off the hook - but Netanyahu is a war criminal... https://www.i24news.tv/en/news/israel-at-war/artc-idf-uncovers-hamas-weaponry-in-unrwa-facility-in-central-gaza One of many discoveries of UNRWA involvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ValueArb Posted May 20 Share Posted May 20 3 hours ago, Luca said: https://edition.cnn.com/2024/05/20/middleeast/icc-israel-hamas-arrest-warrant-war-crimes-intl/index.html EXCLUSIVE: ICC seeks arrest warrants against Sinwar and Netanyahu for war crimes over October 7 attack and Gaza war If Bibi is a war criminal, then so were Bomber Harris, Curtis Lemay, Churchill, FDR and Truman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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