JimBowerman Posted January 8, 2018 Share Posted January 8, 2018 I think there is one limitation of cryptocurrecies that strikes at the core of its value proposition. The primary strength is its decentralization and its independence from any state or organization. However, it requires a global computer network, i.e., the Internet, for it to work. The problem is that the infrastructure that provides the Internet is centralized and owned by states / corporations. So the bedrock on which the blockchain network lives on is not decentralized and independent. Also, if you are cut off from the network, you cannot participate in this. Just think of the citizens of North Korea - they cannot participate in any Bitcoin transactions because they cannot even access the public Internet. I think if the internet goes down we have bigger problems, but that said, long term there may be ways around the issues you mentioned. I've seen research talking about broadcasting bitcoin trasnsactions over radio signals. In addition, the IPFS protocol hopes to get around the problem on interent centralization you mentioned. https://bitconnect.co/bitcoin-news/800/nick-szabo-developed-a-method-of-sending-bitcoin-transactions-over-radio https://ipfs.io/ https://www.technologyreview.com/s/427413/how-china-blocks-the-tor-anonymity-network/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbaron Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 "Yes gold isn't going anywhere, but if the US government gets tyrannical to the point where it shuts down the internet I suspect I'll have larger problems than my Bitcoin holdings." This gets to my point: there is no hunt right now for a store of value. The hunt right now is related to greed, the fear to miss out on something or after almost 8 years into a major bull market. Imagine this whole conversation in 2008-2009 during the major downturn. Even then the supposedly great store of value or gold was down quite a bit. Everything was thrown away. Raising cash was all that mattered. I am not saying that Rkbabang is not onto something and that crypto is worthless. However, I am quite skeptical about the store of value argument especially after the kind of frenzy that we have seen. Cardboard Similar to your thinking, one would assume that if people were looking for store of value one would assume that gain in cryto would translate into an equivalent drop in gold. When I look at charts of golds it seems quite flat, suggesting one is speculation while the other is business as usual. BeerBaron Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 "Yes gold isn't going anywhere, but if the US government gets tyrannical to the point where it shuts down the internet I suspect I'll have larger problems than my Bitcoin holdings." This gets to my point: there is no hunt right now for a store of value. The hunt right now is related to greed, the fear to miss out on something or after almost 8 years into a major bull market. Imagine this whole conversation in 2008-2009 during the major downturn. Even then the supposedly great store of value or gold was down quite a bit. Everything was thrown away. Raising cash was all that mattered. I am not saying that Rkbabang is not onto something and that crypto is worthless. However, I am quite skeptical about the store of value argument especially after the kind of frenzy that we have seen. Cardboard Similar to your thinking, one would assume that if people were looking for store of value one would assume that gain in cryto would translate into an equivalent drop in gold. When I look at charts of golds it seems quite flat, suggesting one is speculation while the other is business as usual. BeerBaron Anyone who doesn't think Bitcoin is pure speculation right now is insane. I just think it is a good bet, just don't bet the farm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 "So you should ask yourself, what has changed to cryptos in the span of 12 months to justify such move?" Four major things changed for Bitcoin during 2017: 1) Attained critical mass. Coming together of enough early adopters outside of the IT/developer community, for social media to take it main stream. 12 months ago it was just a 'thing', now everyone wants to know how to buy/sell them. 2) 'Asset' recognition. Individually, we may be positive that Bitcoin is a 'tulip'; but if the folks that matter declare Bitcoin to be an 'asset', our opinion really doesn't matter. 3) It became credible in NA. Bitcoin was the example, that moved business conversation onto the blockchain technology that runs it. 4) It became mainstream. R3 Corda ledger tests were successful, providing the pipes to enable financial regulators/institutions to 'safely' participate in crypto currency investment. The outcome has been derivatives on Bitcoin, that enable institutions to control risk. Given the large quantity of really bad ICO's issued in 2017, & the bad taste they are leaving; most would expect 2018 to see some of the air leave the bubble. The point here is that adoption 'events' are determining the valuation, not the technology itself. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 "So you should ask yourself, what has changed to cryptos in the span of 12 months to justify such move?" Four major things changed for Bitcoin during 2017: 1) Attained critical mass. Coming together of enough early adopters outside of the IT/developer community, for social media to take it main stream. 12 months ago it was just a 'thing', now everyone wants to know how to buy/sell them. 2) 'Asset' recognition. Individually, we may be positive that Bitcoin is a 'tulip'; but if the folks that matter declare Bitcoin to be an 'asset', our opinion really doesn't matter. 3) It became credible in NA. Bitcoin was the example, that moved business conversation onto the blockchain technology that runs it. 4) It became mainstream. R3 Corda ledger tests were successful, providing the pipes to enable financial regulators/institutions to 'safely' participate in crypto currency investment. The outcome has been derivatives on Bitcoin, that enable institutions to control risk. Given the large quantity of really bad ICO's issued in 2017, & the bad taste they are leaving; most would expect 2018 to see some of the air leave the bubble. The point here is that adoption 'events' are determining the valuation, not the technology itself. SD For example gold and human beings coexisted on this planet a long time before gold was used as money. What happened? Gold didn't change, but all of the sudden it had value where it previously did not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 "So you should ask yourself, what has changed to cryptos in the span of 12 months to justify such move?" Four major things changed for Bitcoin during 2017: 1) Attained critical mass. Coming together of enough early adopters outside of the IT/developer community, for social media to take it main stream. 12 months ago it was just a 'thing', now everyone wants to know how to buy/sell them. 2) 'Asset' recognition. Individually, we may be positive that Bitcoin is a 'tulip'; but if the folks that matter declare Bitcoin to be an 'asset', our opinion really doesn't matter. 3) It became credible in NA. Bitcoin was the example, that moved business conversation onto the blockchain technology that runs it. 4) It became mainstream. R3 Corda ledger tests were successful, providing the pipes to enable financial regulators/institutions to 'safely' participate in crypto currency investment. The outcome has been derivatives on Bitcoin, that enable institutions to control risk. Given the large quantity of really bad ICO's issued in 2017, & the bad taste they are leaving; most would expect 2018 to see some of the air leave the bubble. The point here is that adoption 'events' are determining the valuation, not the technology itself. SD For example gold and human beings coexisted on this planet a long time before gold was used as money. What happened? Gold didn't change, but all of the sudden it had value where it previously did not. Technology (long distance travel, sail, etc.) brought locals into trading contact with 'outsiders'. For locals the volume of trade changed the 'store of value' from the light and transportable sea shells & beetles - to the gold that outsiders wanted. Adoption 'events' changed the store of value; not much different from the Bitcoin versus Gold substitution argument we hear of today. We just don't want to hear it. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted January 9, 2018 Author Share Posted January 9, 2018 Well, that didn’t take long. Jamie Dimon says he regrets calling bitcoin a fraud and believes in the technology behind it https://www.cnbc.com/2018/01/09/jamie-dimon-says-he-regrets-calling-bitcoin-a-fraud.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rb Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eastman-kodak-stocks/eastman-kodak-unveils-cryptocurrency-stock-doubles-idUSKBN1EY2AD Berkshire should create GECKOCoin, become the first trillion dollar company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 9, 2018 Share Posted January 9, 2018 Meanwhile... https://www.theverge.com/2018/1/9/16869998/kodak-kodakcoin-blockchain-platform-ethereum-ledger-stock-price This is fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
roughlyright Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 "So you should ask yourself, what has changed to cryptos in the span of 12 months to justify such move?" Four major things changed for Bitcoin during 2017: 1) Attained critical mass. Coming together of enough early adopters outside of the IT/developer community, for social media to take it main stream. 12 months ago it was just a 'thing', now everyone wants to know how to buy/sell them. 2) 'Asset' recognition. Individually, we may be positive that Bitcoin is a 'tulip'; but if the folks that matter declare Bitcoin to be an 'asset', our opinion really doesn't matter. 3) It became credible in NA. Bitcoin was the example, that moved business conversation onto the blockchain technology that runs it. 4) It became mainstream. R3 Corda ledger tests were successful, providing the pipes to enable financial regulators/institutions to 'safely' participate in crypto currency investment. The outcome has been derivatives on Bitcoin, that enable institutions to control risk. Given the large quantity of really bad ICO's issued in 2017, & the bad taste they are leaving; most would expect 2018 to see some of the air leave the bubble. The point here is that adoption 'events' are determining the valuation, not the technology itself. SD For example gold and human beings coexisted on this planet a long time before gold was used as money. What happened? Gold didn't change, but all of the sudden it had value where it previously did not. very well said Rkbabang! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 10, 2018 Share Posted January 10, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-12/crypto-exchange-kraken-goes-dark-and-user-anxiety-surges Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted January 12, 2018 Author Share Posted January 12, 2018 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-12/crypto-exchange-kraken-goes-dark-and-user-anxiety-surges Considering they went down for scheduled maintenance and haven't come back up, I'm assuming that they haven't been hacked (you don't usually schedule being hacked) and are just having unexpected technical difficulties with their upgrades. But as I've said a bunch of times by now: Don't leave any balance in an exchange. If you must use an exchange, make a deposit, make a trade, make a withdrawal. The whole process should take about 10-30min depending on the coins involved. Get in then get back out as quickly as you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gary17 Posted January 12, 2018 Share Posted January 12, 2018 rkbabang- It seems hard to avoid exchanges outright as to buy a crypto one must use an exchange... right? The only other option I know of is a crypto ATM. i have been reading lots and learning and playing around with a tiny amount just so i know what's going on. still a big philosophical thing for me to see how the government couldn't just come in and say no more crypto... trump could just tweet tomorrow he's going to outlaw crypto and this thing could free fall IMO.... hmmm i haven't been convinced how it could be completely independent of government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clutch Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-01-12/crypto-exchange-kraken-goes-dark-and-user-anxiety-surges Considering they went down for scheduled maintenance and haven't come back up, I'm assuming that they haven't been hacked (you don't usually schedule being hacked) and are just having unexpected technical difficulties with their upgrades. But as I've said a bunch of times by now: Don't leave any balance in an exchange. If you must use an exchange, make a deposit, make a trade, make a withdrawal. The whole process should take about 10-30min depending on the coins involved. Get in then get back out as quickly as you can. https://www.google.ca/amp/s/blog.kraken.com/post/1449/kraken-returns-with-free-trading/amp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNF2007 Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 http://www.businessinsider.com/buying-bitcoin-from-las-vegas-atm-2018-1 Just read this article, is this true about the transaction fee being 40-45$ now? If so it seems absurd anyone would use this as a medium of exchange for small transactions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamecock-YT Posted January 14, 2018 Share Posted January 14, 2018 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/style/bitcoin-millionaires.html At a jazz bar a few days later, I run into Mr. Fickel’s personal trainer, Alan Chen, who is now running in this crypto circle. Mr. Fickel had convinced Mr. Chen to put his savings into Ethereum. “I’m retired, man,” Mr. Chen said. “I’m moving to L.A. next week. I got a penthouse on Marina del Rey.” “Don’t say I’m retired,” he added. “I’m going into business now. I’m going to use blockchain to help personal trainers.” nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UNF2007 Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 Read through that article, it's interesting they say 95% of the crypto money is owned by 5% of the 13 million investors. Very top heavy. The guy talking about ICO's ( initial coin offering) was also crazy, people inventing new cryptocurrency and then selling it to the public, taking the money and cashing out. In my mind they are basically bypassing the valuation problem, by calling stuff currency. If you were trying to IPO a business, that had no assetts, cash flow etc. that would be a tough sell, but instead of shares call it xxxcoin and your golden. https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/style/bitcoin-millionaires.html At a jazz bar a few days later, I run into Mr. Fickel’s personal trainer, Alan Chen, who is now running in this crypto circle. Mr. Fickel had convinced Mr. Chen to put his savings into Ethereum. “I’m retired, man,” Mr. Chen said. “I’m moving to L.A. next week. I got a penthouse on Marina del Rey.” “Don’t say I’m retired,” he added. “I’m going into business now. I’m going to use blockchain to help personal trainers.” nuts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/15/researchers-finds-that-one-person-likely-drove-bitcoin-from-150-to-1000/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16152050 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spekulatius Posted January 15, 2018 Share Posted January 15, 2018 https://www.nytimes.com/2018/01/13/style/bitcoin-millionaires.html At a jazz bar a few days later, I run into Mr. Fickel’s personal trainer, Alan Chen, who is now running in this crypto circle. Mr. Fickel had convinced Mr. Chen to put his savings into Ethereum. “I’m retired, man,” Mr. Chen said. “I’m moving to L.A. next week. I got a penthouse on Marina del Rey.” “Don’t say I’m retired,” he added. “I’m going into business now. I’m going to use blockchain to help personal trainers.” nuts Total insanity. The investors in dot com companies 18 years ago were like coupon clippers compared to this crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/01/15/decentralization-bitcoin-ethereum/ Both Bitcoin and Ethereum mining are very centralized, with the top four miners in Bitcoin and the top three miners in Ethereum controlling more than 50% of the hash rate. The entire blockchain for both systems is determined by fewer than 20 mining entities [4]. Is this correct ??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted January 16, 2018 Author Share Posted January 16, 2018 http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/01/15/decentralization-bitcoin-ethereum/ Both Bitcoin and Ethereum mining are very centralized, with the top four miners in Bitcoin and the top three miners in Ethereum controlling more than 50% of the hash rate. The entire blockchain for both systems is determined by fewer than 20 mining entities [4]. Is this correct ??? https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=4days The big ones are mining pools, some have tens of thousands of members each of whom can switch pools or start mining on their own with a couple of keystrokes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SharperDingaan Posted January 16, 2018 Share Posted January 16, 2018 http://hackingdistributed.com/2018/01/15/decentralization-bitcoin-ethereum/ Both Bitcoin and Ethereum mining are very centralized, with the top four miners in Bitcoin and the top three miners in Ethereum controlling more than 50% of the hash rate. The entire blockchain for both systems is determined by fewer than 20 mining entities [4]. Is this correct ??? https://blockchain.info/pools?timespan=4days The big ones are mining pools, some have tens of thousands of members each of whom can switch pools or start mining on their own with a couple of keystrokes. They also all know each other. Distributed 'security' as advertised doesn't really exist; you're really relying on 'inertia' and self interest ( the fact that the 'craze' is worth much more to everyone if nobody screws the pooch, and the 'ethos' that you don't take your money out). Nothing wrong in that (everyone eventually grows up), but it's a different way of thinking. SD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 https://techcrunch.com/2018/01/16/bitconnect-which-has-been-accused-of-running-a-ponzi-scheme-shuts-down/amp/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted January 17, 2018 Share Posted January 17, 2018 This is worth listening to: http://www.investorfieldguide.com/preston/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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