Russia-Ukrainian War

[cwericb]

Not directly related to the Ukraine, but in reference to China, both Canada and the US have seen major immigration from China to the point where they represent significant proportion of our populations.

 

However I was rather shocked to read this article from the CBC (Canadian Broadcasting Corp) site the other day. If true, this is sort of a wake up call to the extent China has already invaded our countries.

 

“RCMP investigating Chinese 'police' stations in Canada"

"Human rights group says more than 50 exist worldwide, including 3 in Greater Toronto Area

There are at least three Chinese police outposts in and around Toronto in predominantly Chinese neighbourhoods, according to a report by human rights group Safeguard Defenders who say they’re being used to pressure some nationals to return to China. Now, the RCMP says it’s investigating whether any criminal activity is taking place. ...”

 

https://www.cbc.ca/news/rcmp-investigating-chinese-police-stations-canada-1.6627166

 

[Xerxes]

War ! War ! Caesar, the People demand War. 
Glory to the Republic. 

 

[cubsfan]

Nobody wants war. We just don't want to see genocide. And we'd all be a lot safer with

Putin in a nice box with his wings clipped. Europe should have led the way - now you got

Scandinavia, the Baltic states, etc having to face the reality of an out of control despot.

 

As a group, Europe should have taken deterrence a lot more seriously. Now they have

a serious problem.

 

Leaders fail to learn from history once again.

 

 

[changegonnacome]

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2022/10/27/us-send-nuclear-weapons-nato-bases-amid-rising-tensions-russia/

 

Its all just posturing and saber rattling and escalating to deescalate.......until it isn't.

 

Edited October 29, 2022 by changegonnacome

[Gregmal]

Yea I mean honestly I am sick of this whole thing, and found that video of some radical left, yes, radical left, guy blasting AOC at one of her town halls to be so spot on. 
 

Ukraine is and has been a corrupt shit hole. It’s just been a puppet and starting with John McCains prodding and US ops overthrowing the government in 2014 up til now, I am sick of seeing this play out predictably….continuing to endanger US citizens while looting the tax payer on top of it. 

I am partially Ukrainian too btw. For the normal people in Ukraine and Russia, it sucks. But from the US angle, these asshats are endangering us playing some stupid game. It’s not humanitarian either. There’s a reason we re in Ukraine and now pushing for conflict in Taiwan but no one even heard of Rwanda. 

[changegonnacome]

39 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

Yea I mean honestly I am sick of this whole thing, and found that video of some radical left, yes, radical left, guy blasting AOC at one of her town halls to be so spot on. 
 

 

Wow hadnt seen it nice too see some, formerly AOC fans, wake up and smell the coffee.........AOC's of the world and her mirror image folks on the radical right.......think only in black, whites & absolutes.....good guys and bad guys.........the world is fifty shades of grey  ......and the scary thing about the Ukrainian/Russia situation is maybe the only thing they agree on down in DC is perpetuating & escalating this conflict.

 

https://nypost.com/2022/10/13/aoc-heckled-by-anti-ukraine-war-activists-at-town-hall/

 

47 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

There’s a reason we re in Ukraine and now pushing for conflict in Taiwan but no one even heard of Rwanda. 

 

Word.

 

 

 

[james22]

1 hour ago, Gregmal said:

There’s a reason we re in Ukraine and now pushing for conflict in Taiwan but no one even heard of Rwanda. 

 

For good reason, given finite resources.

[Xerxes]

It is Sunday, i figured a light hearted historical post about a "balcony".

This is Kaiser William, the last of his Wilhelmian line (unbeknownst to him at the time), declaring war in 1914 from Stadtschloss in Berlin.

 

 

4 years later, from the same balcony in Stadtschloss, the revolutionary led by Liebknecht give their speech in 1918, ushering the end of the Monarchy.

 

 

By close of World War 2, the Stadtschloss has been largely destroyed by the Allies.

 

 

With the Communist now in power in East Germany, they made plans for the demolition of the palace. Now interestingly the same balcony from which the Socalist German Republic was declared in 1918 was preserved while the rest of palace was demolished. The balcony was kept as a facade around which a new building was raised.I had a hard time finding a picture of Palast der Republik with the balcony facade. So not sure where exactly the "balcony" was preserved.

 

From Wiki: "So solid was its construction that the dome and its entire mount remained intact even after the rest of the building fell to the ground.^[14] Only one section was preserved, a portal from the balcony from which Karl Liebknecht had declared the German Socialist Republic. It was later added to the Council of State building (Staatsratsgebäude), with an altered cartouche, where it forms the main entrance. The empty space where the Stadtschloss had stood was named Marx-Engels-Platz and used as a parade ground."

 

 

In turn this Communist building was demolished with the Unification of Germany. It was in 2003 that the decision was made to re-build the Stadtschloss along with its famed balcony.

 

In Berlin, Rebuilding the Hohenzollern Stadtschloss May Have Become a Grand Blunder - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

[changegonnacome]

18 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

It is Sunday, i figured a light hearted historical post about a "balcony".

This is Kaiser William, the last of his Wilhelmian line (unbeknownst to him at the time), declaring war in 1914 from Stadtschloss in Berlin.

 

 

4 years later, from the same balcony in Stadtschloss, the revolutionary led by Liebknecht give their speech in 1918, ushering the end of the Monarchy.

 

 

By close of World War 2, the Stadtschloss has been largely destroyed by the Allies.

 

 

With the Communist now in power in East Germany, they made plans for the demolition of the palace. Now interestingly the same balcony from which the Socalist German Republic was declared in 1918 was preserved while the rest of palace was demolished. The balcony was kept as a facade around which a new building was raised.I had a hard time finding a picture of Palast der Republik with the balcony facade. So not sure where exactly the "balcony" was preserved.

 

From Wiki: "So solid was its construction that the dome and its entire mount remained intact even after the rest of the building fell to the ground.^[14] Only one section was preserved, a portal from the balcony from which Karl Liebknecht had declared the German Socialist Republic. It was later added to the Council of State building (Staatsratsgebäude), with an altered cartouche, where it forms the main entrance. The empty space where the Stadtschloss had stood was named Marx-Engels-Platz and used as a parade ground."

 

 

In turn this Communist building was demolished with the Unification of Germany. It was in 2003 that the decision was made to re-build the Stadtschloss along with its famed balcony.

 

In Berlin, Rebuilding the Hohenzollern Stadtschloss May Have Become a Grand Blunder - The New York Times (nytimes.com)

Good stuff & instructive…..everyone should be careful when your nationalistic underbelly is tickled by dim witted politicians desperate for a vote…..especially ones with more years behind them on this planet than in front of them……..autocracy versus democracy…….good guys versus bad guys….cowboys and Indians…….give me a break…to believe it is to betray a lack of understanding around the way the world really works…to not understand Nazism is to not understand how a nation of rational people can be turned into murderers….Nation States have interests…..chiefly their own survival & safety……the United States isn’t in Tawain cause we’re good guys……we’re not in Ukraine because we love getting our Presidents crack head son board seats on gas companies….I’m sorry to say we aren’t even there to spread democracy and freedom thru some ill conceived social engineering experiment that has damn near failed in every country the West has attempted it in…….we are there because we want to contain & hold down States, in this case Russia, that we perceive come even close to us in terms of a threat.

See the United States knows well the playbook, you first become a regional hegemon in this case the Western Hemisphere (for example invade Canada (1775, 1812), then Mexico (1846)……exert your regional dominance, become the neighborhood bully, get to be the 800ilbs gorilla in your hood…….once your firmly in control of your region as the USA was in the early 20th century……your free then, if you wish, to meddle in other regions such that no states there could ever conceive of having the scope/capacity to meddle in your region….Middle East, Asia etc…… 

 

The big error being committed in Ukraine is the usual bullshit social engineering escapades the USA gets involved in ad nauseam, that always fail, and this is its usual cover story, for what is a containment strategy for Russia which uses spreading liberal democracy as its Trojan horse. I dont see the USA desperately trying to spread liberal democracy into Rwanda…..no crack head sons are getting sent there.

 

The stupidity out there comes from believing that Russia actually needs to be contained. Russia is not and will not be anytime soon a peer competitor. For God sake, they couldn’t even topple a weak country like Ukraine. What kind of threat is Russia to the might of NATO/USA.
 

The real threat is China, which overtime my guess is will begin to look very much like the United States did in the 1800s, invading other countries no.1 Tawain and exerting its regional dominance in Asia, so that it to becomes an undisputed regional hegemon in Asia. The USA doesn’t really give a shit about Asia…..what it gives a shit about…..is it knows, better than most ever could, once you become a regional hegemon it frees you up to ‘play’ in other regions of the world I dunno like the Western Hemisphere! 

[no_free_lunch]

I can respect wanting to avoid war.  Concerns about the growth of the military industrial complex.  Suspicion around the US motives.  I get it.

 

However, this is a real war and it was started by Russia.  It's not a game.  It's the first country annexed in Europe since ww2, as I understand.  It's also right on Europe's doorstep and by a former and still formidable superpower.   Whatever you do here, China is watching and will react accordingly. Maybe the time for navel gazing is after you contain the threat.

 

I am going to repeat a few of my prior points because I don't feel they were addressed by all the bluster.

 

Finland and Sweden opted to join NATO.  They avoided this all through the cold war and just now decided to do it.  Clearly this isn't them being snow flakes and virtue signaling.  It's a true tell.

 

The US influence on the rest of the world is bad but yet the US is flocked with migrants. It's where people want to live.  I get that we can't make people accept the US way of life but yet they sure seem to want it and I quesion therefore just how evil they really are.

 

Finally, if you want to compare the Ukraine to Rawanda.  Ukraine WANTS the western system.  Yeah they will reject some of the more modern social concepts, for sure, but they want the system.  It will take generations to overcome the corruption but they are willing, so it's not at all the same as the US forcing it's will on these people.

 

That stuff from Xerxes, I suspect it's intended to frame the west but I see Putin giving the pre war speech from the balcony.  You can even dig it up online if you have a few minutes.

Edited October 30, 2022 by no_free_lunch

[changegonnacome]

39 minutes ago, no_free_lunch said:

However, this is a real war and it was started by Russia. 

 

Agreed - but is 'the West' completely & utterly blameless as it pertains to lets call them the tensions between Ukraine & Russia that have ramped up over the last decade?

 

Do you think we might have egged them on, encouraged to play rough with Russia to 'poke the bear'.......as John Mearsheimar rightly says anybody looking at Ukraine since the end of the USSR see's a country being led down the primose path by the West....as he predicted in his 2016 lecture on the subject such encouragement could lead to Ukraine being wrecked. Its quite rare in social sciences like international relations to have theory, prediction come true so precisely (lucky maybe but it shouldnt discount what he said back then, it should enhance its message.)

 

For those whose's knowledge and understanding of Ukraine began in February 2022....you possibly believe the Western propaganda narrative which a great many people do that I speak too.....which is Vladmir Putin woke up in February 2022 having spent too long alone in isolation in the Kremlin, terrified and afraid of COVID (possibly terminally ill) he went crazy and decided to become Catherine the Great......to re-build the USSR by invading and taking over Ukraine with an army so small (190,000 troops) it could barely occupy & hold a city the size of Denver never mind a vast country like Ukraine. This is the myth we tell ourselves in the West.....the truth is too complicated and full of hubris & stupidity to be told to the masses.

[Xerxes]

3 hours ago, no_free_lunch said:

The US influence on the rest of the world is bad but yet the US is flocked with migrants. It's where people want to live.  I get that we can't make people accept the US way of life but yet they sure seem to want it and I quesion therefore just how evil they really are.

 

That stuff from Xerxes, I suspect it's intended to frame the west but I see Putin giving the pre war speech from the balcony.  You can even dig it up online if you have a few minutes.

 

Nope, you have suspected incorrectly. Actually only the Caesar comment earlier upthread was to frame West, as it is the people flushed with excitement to "take on the Barbarians" that in turn embolden the fictional Caesar.

 

The Kaiser comment was not to frame West but actually East. The ruler of the House Hohenzollroen at that point in time was not exactly looking for advice from mere mortals gazing upon the autocrat. Indeed, he had already toppled the mighty Otto von Bismark, so the opinion of the mortals was not exactly needed. Inertia had already put his path (and by extension that of the Reich) on a collision course with that of Great Britian. It is said that at the time, Germany was too big for Europe but too small for the world. I can say the samething about today's Russia. And as you have outlined, Putin would have given similiar speech.

 

But the real hero in the story was the "balcony", whom by sheer coincidence became both a symbol of communism as much as symbol of the Prussian past history, thereby surviving throughout the decades (to this day) different regimes and ideaologies, until humans stopped being crazy. It took more than hundred years from 1914 till today

---------------------------------------------------

On the comment about "but yet people flock to the U.S." and "we can't make people accept the US way of life ", you are definitly confusing two different things.

 

- First and foremost, if people immigrate to the U.S. (or anywhere for that matter), they should accept that country's way of like. No excuses. I live in French-speaking province. You immigrate here be prepared to learn French.

 

- But what you are mixing up, is the fact that a lot of people coming in are from the countries, where U.S. either choke the living hell out of them economically and/or has endlessly interfered with them. Guess what, stop being such an asshole on an international stage and perhaps some of those people would actually like to stay where they are. Maybe there would be less Algerians in France, if it was not a former colony of France. Maybe there would less Indian and Pakistani in U.K. if the sub-continent was not colony. I get that a Polish person moving to the U.S. speaks volume of the opportunities in the U.S. but i find it incredibley arrogant for Westerners (of which I am one) to think that they can go around do-whatever-the-f&ck they want to do around the world, and then complain why those people are moving to the West.

 

 

Edited October 30, 2022 by Xerxes

[Xerxes]

1 hour ago, changegonnacome said:

 

Agreed - but is 'the West' completely & utterly blameless as it pertains to lets call them the tensions between Ukraine & Russia that have ramped up over the last decade?

 

Do you think we might have egged them on, encouraged to play rough with Russia to 'poke the bear'.......as John Mearsheimar rightly says anybody looking at Ukraine since the end of the USSR see's a country being led down the primose path by the West....as he predicted in his 2016 lecture on the subject such encouragement could lead to Ukraine being wrecked. Its quite rare in social sciences like international relations to have theory, prediction come true so precisely (lucky maybe but it shouldnt discount what he said back then, it should enhance its message.)

 

For those whose's knowledge and understanding of Ukraine began in February 2022....you possibly believe the Western propaganda narrative which a great many people do that I speak too.....which is Vladmir Putin woke up in February 2022 having spent too long alone in isolation in the Kremlin, terrified and afraid of COVID (possibly terminally ill) he went crazy and decided to become Catherine the Great......to re-build the USSR by invading and taking over Ukraine with an army so small (190,000 troops) it could barely occupy & hold a city the size of Denver never mind a vast country like Ukraine. This is the myth we tell ourselves in the West.....the truth is too complicated and full of hubris & stupidity to be told to the masses.

 

Indeed,

 

 

 

[changegonnacome]

2 hours ago, Xerxes said:

 

 

 

We're the US government and were here to help, we've got your back..."we" are going to defeat Russia................8 years later:

 

 

 

I'm not absolving Russia of its sins, they have many.......but when your a mouse (Ukraine) and you sleep in a bed with an elephant (Russia) you have to remember your a mouse cause when the elephant rolls over it can kill you. The West made Ukraine forget it was a mouse and it started picking fights with the elephant & it got wrecked in the process. 

 

Take that video of John McCain..close your eyes.....now imagine a Chinese John McCain Xi down in Mexico rallying Mexican troops like that.........yeah you got it, you wouldn't stand for it Jaurez would look like Mauripol does today in about 15 minutes flat.

Edited October 31, 2022 by changegonnacome

[UK]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-10-27/putin-plays-down-nuclear-threat-in-ukraine-as-he-lambasts-us

 

Even as Russian troops have suffered a series of recent defeats against Ukrainian forces, Putin said his plan for what he calls his “special military operation” remained to ensure the security of Kremlin-backed separatists in the eastern Donbas region. He made no mention of the sweeping goals of “de-Nazification” and “de-militarization” that he’d cited at the start of the invasion, when Russia failed in a lightning attempt to seize Ukraine’s capital, Kyiv.
Putin, whose public statements of his goals for the war have shifted in the months since he dispatched troops, didn’t explain the apparent omission. He described the neighboring regions of Ukraine that Russia illegally annexed last month as part of a historic ‘Novorossiya’ territory. His comments came in response to a question from the host of the Valdai event, foreign policy analyst Fyodor Lukyanov, who noted that “society doesn’t really understand what the plan is.” As Putin spoke, the independent Levada Center released a poll showing that for the first time, a majority of Russians now support talks to end the war, rather than continuing the invasion. 

[Castanza]

On 10/30/2022 at 3:37 PM, no_free_lunch said:

I can respect wanting to avoid war.  Concerns about the growth of the military industrial complex.  Suspicion around the US motives.  I get it.

 

However, this is a real war and it was started by Russia.  It's not a game.  It's the first country annexed in Europe since ww2, as I understand.  It's also right on Europe's doorstep and by a former and still formidable superpower.   Whatever you do here, China is watching and will react accordingly. Maybe the time for navel gazing is after you contain the threat.

 

I am going to repeat a few of my prior points because I don't feel they were addressed by all the bluster.

 

Finland and Sweden opted to join NATO.  They avoided this all through the cold war and just now decided to do it.  Clearly this isn't them being snow flakes and virtue signaling.  It's a true tell.

 

The US influence on the rest of the world is bad but yet the US is flocked with migrants. It's where people want to live.  I get that we can't make people accept the US way of life but yet they sure seem to want it and I quesion therefore just how evil they really are.

 

Finally, if you want to compare the Ukraine to Rawanda.  Ukraine WANTS the western system.  Yeah they will reject some of the more modern social concepts, for sure, but they want the system.  It will take generations to overcome the corruption but they are willing, so it's not at all the same as the US forcing it's will on these people.

 

That stuff from Xerxes, I suspect it's intended to frame the west but I see Putin giving the pre war speech from the balcony.  You can even dig it up online if you have a few minutes.

 

Why is this a problem of the US? Let Europe handle it. We didn't get involved in or send aid or weapons during the French Revolution or the Napoleonic Wars. This really isn't much different. Arguable even more advantageous to us because Russia isn't relevant to our economy and we won't have to make the decision of trade partner. The last thing we should be doing is spending massive amount of money on another war and exhausting our own resources. I can get behind some spending because the consequences can be contained/identified to an extent. However I am very much against un-checked spending with no end in sight which is what we have now. 

 

Non-interventionism is a core tenant of US history and our Constitution. It's served us well in the past and would serve us well now. 

[Viking]

58 minutes ago, Castanza said:

 

Why is this a problem of the US? Let Europe handle it. We didn't get involved in or send aid or weapons during the French Revolution or the Napoleonic Wars. This really isn't much different. Arguable even more advantageous to us because Russia isn't relevant to our economy and we won't have to make the decision of trade partner. The last thing we should be doing is spending massive amount of money on another war and exhausting our own resources. I can get behind some spending because the consequences can be contained/identified to an extent. However I am very much against un-checked spending with no end in sight which is what we have now. 

 

Non-interventionism is a core tenant of US history and our Constitution. It's served us well in the past and would serve us well now. 

@Castanza  i do not understand this comment: “Non-interventionism is a core tenant of US history”.

 

Since WWII, the US has been very involved in pretty much every part of the globe. Countries with open economies are very good for US business interests.
 

China and Russia have just decided it is time for dictatorships to take their rightful place in the world. I am nor sure that this is a great time for the US and US businesses for the US to become isolationist (like pre WW1). 

[Castanza]

1 hour ago, Viking said:

@Castanza  i do not understand this comment: “Non-interventionism is a core tenant of US history”.

 

Since WWII, the US has been very involved in pretty much every part of the globe. Countries with open economies are very good for US business interests.
 

China and Russia have just decided it is time for dictatorships to take their rightful place in the world. I am nor sure that this is a great time for the US and US businesses for the US to become isolationist (like pre WW1). 

Haha should have said “was”. But yeah post WWII much of it went out the window with the military industrial complex latching on to politicians. Only gotten worse since then.  
 

Non-interventionism is not isolationism. It doesn’t isolate on the economic side of things but adheres  to not getting involved in foreign affairs. Example “Treaty of Tripoli”. Two very different things with very different long term outcomes.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-interventionism

 

Lets go revisit what Kennedy said after the Cuban Missile Crisis. 
 

“My God what did we almost do?!”

 

“While defending our vital interests, we must avert confrontations that force an adversary to choose between humiliating defeat and nuclear war.” 

[Xerxes]

I always enjoy listening to the good Admiral whether on Bloomberg or elsewhere (though less interested to buy his fiction book). This is an incredible episode on his time in service as a sailor and a Navy admiral, the war in Ukraine, him being in the pentagon when 9-11 happened. Worth listening. 
 

There is a book he very highly recommended called “Chip wars” written by an SME. I also saw a review on it in The Economist. I think I would be buying.  
 

[Xerxes]

4 hours ago, Viking said:

@Castanza  i do not understand this comment: “Non-interventionism is a core tenant of US history”.

 

Since WWII, the US has been very involved in pretty much every part of the globe. Countries with open economies are very good for US business interests.
 

China and Russia have just decided it is time for dictatorships to take their rightful place in the world. I am nor sure that this is a great time for the US and US businesses for the US to become isolationist (like pre WW1). 

I think you mean pre-WW2. Notwithstanding the Wilsononian involvement in the First World War. 
 

On “China and Russia JUST deciding” I am not sure where you guys get this stuff. This is not 2022 news. China was once a great power, before the Opuim wars and before its humiliation by the Europeans. We may have short memory, but history remembers. 
 

That great power vision may collide with our more liberal vision of world. But it does not mean they JUST decided something. 

 

It is worth re-reading the first paragraph on one Daniel Yergin’ lesser known books: “The Commanding Heights”, shown below. 

 

This first paragraph speaks volume of Deng Xiaoping resiliency, him setting the stage and that of the current paramount leader that will now see that vision through. 
 

“Hide your strength and bide your time” Deng Xiaoping said at the time. Now comes the next step …

 

[UK]

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/10/29/world/europe/ukraine-russia-war-artillery.html#:~:text=Turning the Tables%3A With powerful,Russia's hold in the territory.

 

Sitting in front of his screens, he pinpoints tanks, barracks or other military objects and relays coordinates to artillery teams firing satellite guided shells, which hit within a yard or two of their intended targets. “From a typical howitzer, you create a sniper rifle,” he said of the combination of drone surveillance and satellite guided artillery shells, something Russia lacks. “One shot, one kill.” The partial destruction of bridges over the broad Dnipro River through the summer slowed Russia’s movement of heavy equipment to the river’s western bank, even as Western weaponry helped Ukraine whittle away at what was already there. The combination cost Russia its artillery advantage on the river’s western bank. “Think of the orcs in their trenches,” Lieutenant Oleh said, using a derisive term for Russian soldiers. “They have no heavy weaponry, no supplies, it’s cold and raining. It’s a really difficult state for morale.”

[no_free_lunch]

On 11/1/2022 at 1:47 PM, Castanza said:

 

Why is this a problem of the US? Let Europe handle it. We didn't get involved in or send aid or weapons during the French Revolution or the Napoleonic Wars. This really isn't much different. Arguable even more advantageous to us because Russia isn't relevant to our economy and we won't have to make the decision of trade partner. The last thing we should be doing is spending massive amount of money on another war and exhausting our own resources. I can get behind some spending because the consequences can be contained/identified to an extent. However I am very much against un-checked spending with no end in sight which is what we have now. 

 

Non-interventionism is a core tenant of US history and our Constitution. It's served us well in the past and would serve us well now. 

 

I don't think you are exhausting your resources at all.   A lot of that stuff going to Ukraine, is older tech from what I understand.  From what i can see the US is using this as a way to build up the MIC, in preparation for war with China.  This seems the rough equivalent of Cash and carry at the beginning of WW2 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cash_and_carry_(World_War_II) .  I know it's different, the US is donating now but the point is it's a way for them to get the weapons flowing and production started before the actual war begins.

 

I guess you have to make the call but I believe that if you (the US) stand down the various evil empires of the world will be emboldened.  Cliche but it's true.  Remember that before the invasion of Ukraine, non interventionists scoffed at the idea that a nation state would launch a full scale assault on another but now it has happened.   If you do nothing, you risk losing your various allies one by one and you will end up with a much larger rival or set of rivals that you won't be able to take on.

 

I think Viking also brings up a good point regarding US foreign investment.  I wonder how often the US has used it's advantage militarily to gain favorable trade deals over seas and squish down their rivals.  Here in Canada we always hear about how the Avro arrow back in the 60s got shut down despite being way ahead of it's time on the "advice" of the US.  We had good relations with the US too, we got the relative good end of the stick.  I think a lot of that will get rolled back, a lot of US owned foreign domiciled resources will simply be repatriated, trade deals renegotiated, US cloud providers can be blocked, etc.   The winner makes the rules.

Edited November 3, 2022 by no_free_lunch

[cubsfan]

8 hours ago, no_free_lunch said:

 

 

I guess you have to make the call but I believe that if you (the US) stand down the various evil empires of the world will be emboldened.  Cliche but it's true.  Remember that before the invasion of Ukraine, non interventionists scoffed at the idea that a nation state would launch a full scale assault on another but now it has happened.   If you do nothing, you risk losing your various allies one by one and you will end up with a much larger rival or set of rivals that you won't be able to take on.

 

 

 

This is why you need to stop them. 

[Xerxes]

10 hours ago, no_free_lunch said:

 

 

I guess you have to make the call but I believe that if you (the US) stand down the various evil empires of the world will be emboldened.  Cliche but it's true.  Remember that before the invasion of Ukraine, non interventionists scoffed at the idea that a nation state would launch a full scale assault on another but now it has happened.   If you do nothing, you risk losing your various allies one by one and you will end up with a much larger rival or set of rivals that you won't be able to take on.

 

what you mean is “a nation state would launch a full scale assault on another state, POPULATED BY WHITE PEOPLE”

 

Anybody (even folks who don’t follow this stuff) can do a quick Google search. 
 

The list does not include “proxy” and “hybrid like war”
 

 

Edited November 3, 2022 by Xerxes

[Spekulatius]

Putin is a classical example of a Pascal mugger. In exchange for giving him Ukraine, he promises no nuclear war. That‘s the fallacy that many here are subscribing who say we can’t fight him because he has nuclear weapons. Of course, after we would appease him , he still would have his nuclear weapons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_mugging

 

Who would give a Pascal‘s mugger some of his money? I certainly would not.

Edited November 6, 2022 by Spekulatius