Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[thowed]

1 hour ago, james22 said:

 

You didn't answer the question: what is he apologizing for?

 

 

He's not, he's being polite, unlike the rest.

 

[james22]

Just now, Sweet said:

Wtf are you talking about James.

 

The Rubio negotiated rare earth minerals deal that would have provided Ukraine something of a security guarantee (Russia being unlikely to attack de facto US resources).

 

You knew that, yeah?

[Sweet]

13 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

The Rubio negotiated rare earth minerals deal that would have provided Ukraine something of a security guarantee (Russia being unlikely to attack de facto US resources).

 

You knew that, yeah?

No.  

 

There were no security guarantees.

 

YOU should know this.

 

So back to you again.  What support was on offer?

 

 

Edited Saturday at 08:49 AM by Sweet

[james22]

10 minutes ago, Sweet said:

What support was on offer?

 

There's great value in the ambiguity the minerals deal's protection offers: it doesn't necessarily commit the US to a shooting war with a nuclear power.

 

But set that aside, any support was contingent upon the minerals deal.

 

Why didn't Zelensky sign it?

[Sweet]

12 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

There's great value in the ambiguity the minerals deal's protection offers: it doesn't necessarily commit the US to a shooting war with a nuclear power.

 

But set that aside, any support was contingent upon the minerals deal.

 

Why didn't Zelensky sign it?

There is no value in the ambiguity of  the mineral deals.  The ‘ambiguity’ you speak is only serves as a way for you to avoid answering the question.

What support was on offer?

 

They could pay, by other means, for military aid.  The minerals deal was a means to pay.

 

This support was NOT a security guarantee.  In fact, as previously posted, Ukraine supposedly had a security guarantee from the US already.

 

But why would the Ukrainians sign that if they are going to be strong armed into peace anyway?

 

Edited Saturday at 09:18 AM by Sweet

[John Hjorth]

And ... the Day After! -Topic still going like crazy!

 

I'm sure there was a red stamp with text 'Hot' on this topic yesterday evening on the forum index! -It seems to be gone now, and where are the 'hot stuff'?!  [j/k] :

 

[Gamecock-YT]

JD Vance stuck his neck out on a question, got rightfully clapped back, and didn't handle it very well, eventually reverting to law school debate tactics. He's nothing more than a charlatan.

[Ulti]

https://www.timesofisrael.com/tim-snyders-warning-israel-depends-upon-a-functioning-us-trump-and-musk-are-destroying-it/
 

interesting interview with Tim snyder

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Snyder

the interviewer David Horovitz … falls into the Tom Friedman/ George Will category 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horovitz

[Luke]

Again, you guys picture it black and white. Selensky the white knight, Putin the Darth Vader. Ukraine not responsible at all for the tensions in the eastern regions, Ukraine the country with freedom and democracy that was helplessly attacked.

 

Looking at the facts thats not true, they have their own responsibility for the outbreak of the war, its in the books but nobody is talking about it. Selensky has responsibility for his men and people and was willing to buy the promises of the Bidenists to continue this brutal war no matter the costs and reject any contact with the russian state. What did it get them besides a slowly losing stalemate, hundreds of thousands of men dead, the country in ruins?

 

Trump and Vance say it like it is. The time where selensky can push for more and more western engagement against russia and more and more weapons with zero results is over. The country is ruined, there will never be peace without russia.

 

All i see is a lot of denial by all those who blindly cheered for ukraine without looking at the bigger picture. That trump and vance get hate for that was to be expected but they are doing the right thing. Its a wake up call for selensky.

Edited Saturday at 11:03 AM by Luke

[Luke]

Selensky WALKS into the oval office with demands only, " i will not take a cease-fire", "we want to continue this war and need your money".

 

But he doesnt hold the cards, he cant do anything of that without engagement by the US administration which already saw the sunken costs of the last 3 years...why would trump bother to send even more so that the same shitshow continues?

 

Yes, not wanting any cease fire or any sort of arrangement while at the same time pushing for further and further western engagement is playing with WW3. Thats what selensky has to do.

 

Its shocking to me that most people continue to cheer for further war. Probably most people think they wont be send to the battlefield but we all saw that selensky threatened trump that even the US will feel the influence soon (hello WW3).

 

Thats disrespectful!

[Luke]

To think that Russia can be attacked like Nazigermany was attacked is lunacy, Hitler has nuclear warheads now and they will be used if the state is in danger. Will you guys then also push for nuclear attacks on russia? Moscow for example? Are these regions in ukraine worth a nuclear holocaust and the deathcount going from 1m to 50m and 10% of the earths land destroyed?

 

You make it look like that is the case if you deal with moral absolutes and want zero diplomacy.

[Red Lion]

I’ve been trying to give the new administration the benefit of the doubt, but what a shameful spectacle this was. 

It feels like this whole thing is orchestrated to get Zelenskyy to crawl back on hands and knees to beg for a deal. Even though there was already one in the bag. Art of the deal indeed. 

Edited Saturday at 12:12 PM by Red Lion

[Aurelius]

Quote

It’s a cult. Vance himself called Trump Hitler but then he joined the ass kissing. “Say thank you to the king”

Don’t waste mental energy arguing with cultists. Just sit back and invest accordingly and accept these moments as a fact of life.

 

Quote

Ukraine gets fucked over by Russia with a third of their country decimated and the U.S. wants an apology for breach of etiquette! 

Truly bizarre watching functioning grown adults going all in on MAGA (or any political block) and then becoming complete loyalists and just suspending all critical thinking. These people are more loyal to their ideology then their own children and family. So fucking bizarre! 

 

Since this a corner of the internet has heroes like Mr. Munger I'd advice to read up on what Munger said about intense ideology!

[Castanza]

~500k total

~100k Ukrainian troops 

@cubsfan

In light of that, the public spectacle was completely disrespectful. Especially when he berated Zelensky and said “You hold no cards.” Not a classy thing to say. 
 

We all know these discussions go on behind closed doors. I’m sure they escalate and get out of hand often. Lost of pressure on everyone’s shoulders. Politicians are humans and have emotions. As @John Hjorth  said. 
 

But part of a politicians job is Statesmanship and appearing to the public in a way that instills confidence.  We shouldn’t see you berating an ally world leader (who was elected) who is already in the thick of it. 
 

This public tantrum bickering fest did nothing positive for the situation at hand. In fact it showed any positive advanced Macron made were false and that we are more divided than ever. Putin and Xi are laughing their asses off. 

[John Hjorth]

15 minutes ago, Castanza said:

~500k total

~100k Ukrainian troops 

@cubsfan

In light of that, the public spectacle was completely disrespectful. Especially when he berated Zelensky and said “You hold no cards.” Not a classy thing to say. 
 

We all know these discussions go on behind closed doors. I’m sure they escalate and get out of hand often. Lost of pressure on everyone’s shoulders. Politicians are humans and have emotions. As @John Hjorth  said. 
 

But part of a politicians job is Statesmanship and appearing to the public in a way that instills confidence.  We shouldn’t see you berating an ally world leader (who was elected) who is already in the thick of it. 
 

This public tantrum bickering fest did nothing positive for the situation at hand. In fact it showed any positive advanced Macron made were false and that we are more divided than ever. Putin and Xi are laughing their asses off. 

 

Very good post and points here, @Castanza ,

 

In that respect : Zero performance bonus here for the two presidents and the vice president. Counterproductive and not positive in any way for a solution to the overall matter at hand, and likely also not at all to any of the parties involved in this whole mess, here even meant as including for Russia.

Edited Saturday at 01:10 PM by John Hjorth

[Xerxes]

3 hours ago, Ulti said:

https://www.timesofisrael.com/tim-snyders-warning-israel-depends-upon-a-functioning-us-trump-and-musk-are-destroying-it/
 

interesting interview with Tim snyder

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timothy_Snyder

the interviewer David Horovitz … falls into the Tom Friedman/ George Will category 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Horovitz

Bibi already crossed Trump once, when congratulated Biden in 2021. Trump hasn’t forgotten that. 
 

U.S. support to Israel is as large as the one to Ukraine. But unlike Zelenskyy, Bibi knows when to bow. And in Trump’ mind the real estate in Riviera will pay for all that. All Bibi needs to do is to nod politely and keep his disagreement in private. 
 

As far as Musk-Trump danger that the article alludes to, I don’t know, I think Bibi made the relationship with past US Government challenging, by going after specific presidents behind their back. When you disrespect the office of president (doesn’t matter who is that person), and when you bet all on one person and try to influence the internal politics of your ally, … you are kind of asking for it. 

[cubsfan]

5 hours ago, james22 said:

 

It was super easy to secure US support.

 

All he had to do was show up in a suit, say thanks, sign the (agreed upon) deal, share a meal, and take the win.

 

But he couldn't manage that.

 

Why not?

 

Because he's a grandstanding clown who forgot his dependency?

 

Because he doesn't want a peace deal that would end the graft?

 

Absolutely.  He tried to strong-arm the United States at the last minute.

 

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

[73 Reds]

49 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

Very good post and points here, @Castanza ,

 

In that respect : Zero performance bonus here for the two presidents and the vice president. Counterproductive and not positive in any way for a solution to the overall matter at hand, and likely also not at all to any of the parties involved in this whole mess, here even meant as including for Russia.

This discussion brings to mind the age old question:  Which is more important, form or substance?  Clearly the optics(form) here were terrible.  But with regard to substance does anyone have a better idea how to resolve this issue?  Seems like everyone is critical of the other as to form but no one seems to have a better idea than the one proposed by Trump which at least saves the US taxpayer from continuing to fund endless bloodshed and an unwinnable war.  There are a lot of way to coerce compromise; we saw one yesterday.  Whether it works is anyone's guess.

Edited Saturday at 01:57 PM by 73 Reds
spelling

[Xerxes]

1 hour ago, Castanza said:

~500k total

~100k Ukrainian troops 

@cubsfan

In light of that, the public spectacle was completely disrespectful. Especially when he berated Zelensky and said “You hold no cards.” Not a classy thing to say. 
 

We all know these discussions go on behind closed doors. I’m sure they escalate and get out of hand often. Lost of pressure on everyone’s shoulders. Politicians are humans and have emotions. As @John Hjorth  said. 
 

But part of a politicians job is Statesmanship and appearing to the public in a way that instills confidence.  We shouldn’t see you berating an ally world leader (who was elected) who is already in the thick of it. 
 

This public tantrum bickering fest did nothing positive for the situation at hand. In fact it showed any positive advanced Macron made were false and that we are more divided than ever. Putin and Xi are laughing their asses off. 

A+

[cubsfan]

2 hours ago, Luke said:

Selensky WALKS into the oval office with demands only, " i will not take a cease-fire", "we want to continue this war and need your money".

 

But he doesnt hold the cards, he cant do anything of that without engagement by the US administration which already saw the sunken costs of the last 3 years...why would trump bother to send even more so that the same shitshow continues?

 

 

The perfect summary.  The quagmire will continue - Europe can own it now. 

[cubsfan]

10 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

This discussion brings to mind the age old question:  Which is more important, form or substance?  Clearly the optics(form) here were terrible.  But with regard to substance does anyone have a better idea how to resolve this issue?  

 

Indeed. A valiant effort by a US President to bring peace into an obvious Verdun situation.

The President was given an overwhelming  mandate to do so by the American voters.

 

But the rest prefer war - so the unwinnable war, death and destruction shall continue.

 

The Europeans can own it now and settle it later.

[gary17]

I think Trump's position on the issue while makes sense, the unintended onsequence is that many countries like Korea, Taiwan , etc will look at this and realize the only true security guarantee they'll ever have is to have their own nuclear weapons.   

 

I don't disagree it's a bad situation and I don't know how else one would negotiate with Putin,  but  i think backing away from the 'leader of the free world' (right or wrong) creates a void for others to step in.  just my two cents.

Edited Saturday at 02:24 PM by gary17

[james22]

Matt Taibbi:

 

I think basically the American people have been screwed and plundered to prop up the sort of imperial project around the world, and Europeans have been primary beneficiaries.

 

We’ve talked about this before, Walter, about this dichotomy in politics between people who prioritize the needs of empire and those who prioritize the needs of the country. America became essentially a state that ignored almost completely its national concerns in favor of its imperial role.

 

And in doing so, it ended up plundering its own population, not just in terms of the lives, because we sent a lot of young men and women to fight and die for causes that had nothing to do with their own, but also financially.

 

https://www.racket.news/p/transcript-america-this-week-feb-d05

[73 Reds]

14 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Indeed. A valiant effort by a US President to bring peace into an obvious Verdun situation.

The President was given an overwhelming  mandate to do so by the American voters.

 

But the rest prefer war - so the unwinnable war, death and destruction shall continue.

 

The Europeans can own it now and settle it later.

I think yesterday's confrontation needed to happen - though not necessarily in the public eye.  It did nothing to denigrate what the US stands for in spite of what many Trump haters may believe.  The World will get over its collective vitriol when it recognizes that the "America First" movement is not about US control, but rather about returning to a semblance of balance as to the respective roles of each major western-thinking nation with respect to responsibility and material policy.  The World is a dangerous place and IMO large swaths of morality have been completely corrupted; this is clearly on display every time the UN meets and embarrasses itself while most Western nations sit idly by and do nothing.   

[cubsfan]

5 hours ago, Sweet said:

There is no value in the ambiguity of  the mineral deals.  The ‘ambiguity’ you speak is only serves as a way for you to avoid answering the question.

 

 

There is enormous value in ambiguity in regards to Trump words. FAFO.

 

His enemies know he is totally unpredictable - just ask the Iranian generals, the Russian generals in Syria, the Taliban who tested him and earned the MOAB. 

 

When he says "don't", unlike flunky Biden or Obama - Trump means it.

 

That Zelensky played games with his best chance to end this war - was an enormous gamble.

He just threw away his Trump card.