Bryggen Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 A quick google search would provide your answer. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/why-does-the-sptsx-60-exclude-some-of-canadas-biggest-stocks/article19057449/#:~:text=Twelve%20of%20the%2060%20biggest,company%20in%20the%20TSX%20composite. Unrelated question: was FFH ever part of the TSX 60 and recently removed? Thanks ...not if you don't have a Globe and Mail account! I cannot read the article. So, the answer is no and never was on the TSX60? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ourkid8 Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 Correct. A quick google search would provide your answer. https://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe-investor/investment-ideas/why-does-the-sptsx-60-exclude-some-of-canadas-biggest-stocks/article19057449/#:~:text=Twelve%20of%20the%2060%20biggest,company%20in%20the%20TSX%20composite. Unrelated question: was FFH ever part of the TSX 60 and recently removed? Thanks ...not if you don't have a Globe and Mail account! I cannot read the article. So, the answer is no and never was on the TSX60? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petec Posted November 27, 2020 Share Posted November 27, 2020 I don't want to create a jinx or anything, but Blackberry shares are trading at US$6.18 this morning. The conversion privilege of the $330m debentures is at least temporarily in-the-money. Lots of small pieces of good news over the past three weeks. SJ Shhhhh! Have you learned nothing?! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Can’t wait to dump the rest of my BB shares once it crosses 10 CAD or more, to cover my cost. Small position but eager to clean it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 Can’t wait to dump the rest of my BB shares once it crosses 10 CAD or more, to cover my cost. Small position but eager to clean it up. I wonder if Fairfax may not put BB on the auction block in 2021. To extract maximum value and facilitate a sale perhaps step 1 is to monetize the patents. Would it make sense to split the car software business from cybersecurity? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 That is why I want to own BB through the asset manager than directly as a normal common shareholder. The reality is that BB has just less optionality today when it used its cash pile to buy Cylient and now even less with the liquidation of IP portfolio. I don’t know what will happen, but that is my perception, at least the stock grinding higher as the pendulum is swinging toward sum-of-parts valuation. What FFH needs though is not a pendulum swing that just goes back and undo the mark-to-market gain. It needs a strategic exit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viking Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 That is why I want to own BB through the asset manager than directly as a normal common shareholder. The reality is that BB has just less optionality today when it used its cash pile to buy Cylient and now even less with the liquidation of IP portfolio. I don’t know what will happen, but that is my perception, at least the stock grinding higher as the pendulum is swinging toward sum-of-parts valuation. What FFH needs though is not a pendulum swing that just goes back and undo the mark-to-market gain. It needs a strategic exit. I agree. I hope Fairfax is learning that their head office is not equipped to manage healthy non-insurance businesses let alone turnarounds like Blackberry. Flipping APR to Atlas looks like a useful example of what a focussed management team can do to an underperforming business. Hopefully Fairfax Africa finds success merged with Helios. Dexterra is perhaps a slightly different situation with their reverse takeover of Horizon North. It will be interesting to see what Fairfax does over the next year with the various companies they control. I am getting more optimistic with their collection of assets as we exit the pandemic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted November 28, 2020 Share Posted November 28, 2020 In fact to partially answer Petec’ question APR, I would to say at the very least APR had a much higher discount rate as a business within the walls of Fairfax than it has now within the walls of Atlas. Part of that is explained by what you said, giving control of the asset to someone that incrementally knows more than you. That ought to lower the discount rate by a few basis point. Imagine if the small team in Omaha was making all the capital allocation decision within MidAmerican. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wondering Posted November 30, 2020 Author Share Posted November 30, 2020 https://simplywall.st/stocks/ca/insurance/tsx-ffh/fairfax-financial-holdings-shares/news/insider-buying-the-fairfax-financial-holdings-limited-tseffh insider buying by Christine MacLean $105k Cdn worth of FFH at $441 Cdn/share Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bearprowler6 Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Further news: http://www.gulfinsgroup.com/Renderers/Showmedia.ashx?Id=dbc9fdcb-3bfc-4344-b1fe-58301ca2a6fb&download=false Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petec Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Further news: http://www.gulfinsgroup.com/Renderers/Showmedia.ashx?Id=dbc9fdcb-3bfc-4344-b1fe-58301ca2a6fb&download=false That’s quite sizeable! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gregmal Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The blind squirrel found a nut! BB partnership with AMZN, shares back up to....where they were a few years ago. Recouping losses is better than adding to them though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wisowis Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 https://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20201201005424/en/AWS-and-BlackBerry-Join-Forces-to-Accelerate-Innovation-with-New-Intelligent-Vehicle-Data-Platform AWS and BlackBerry Join Forces to Accelerate Innovation with New Intelligent Vehicle Data Platform Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petec Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The blind squirrel found a nut! BB partnership with AMZN, shares back up to....where they were a few years ago. Recouping losses is better than adding to them though. Especially when you rewrote your convert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TwoCitiesCapital Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The blind squirrel found a nut! BB partnership with AMZN, shares back up to....where they were a few years ago. Recouping losses is better than adding to them though. Especially when you rewrote your convert. This.... 7$/share wouldn't have been anything previously with Fairfax's ability to convert to 50 million shares @ $10. But now Fairfax gets to convert into 55 million shares @ $6 - meaning they're ~$100 million in the money for bonds that wouldn't have been worth more than par back in September. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xerxes Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Jeez What happened. Did John Chen buy some bitcoin instead of treasury bond for its balance sheet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daphne Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Check out the blackberry Amazon deal!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petec Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The blind squirrel found a nut! BB partnership with AMZN, shares back up to....where they were a few years ago. This post has brightened my afternoon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StubbleJumper Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The blind squirrel found a nut! BB partnership with AMZN, shares back up to....where they were a few years ago. Recouping losses is better than adding to them though. Especially when you rewrote your convert. This.... 7$/share wouldn't have been anything previously with Fairfax's ability to convert to 50 million shares @ $10. But now Fairfax gets to convert into 55 million shares @ $6 - meaning they're ~$100 million in the money for bonds that wouldn't have been worth more than par back in September. Have you (or has any board participant) calculated FFH's break-even on its full investment in BB? It's mostly irrelevant because you cannot change your entry price, you can only choose whether to exit, but I am a bit curious. My mental guess would be about $10/sh, but that's just the result of faint memories of past discussions and accounting for the new conversion privilege for 55m shares. The prospect of exiting the BB position on a break-even basis (or gasp! a profitable basis) is encouraging. It's been a long ten years. <EDIT> Answering my own question, here's a bit of work that Valuehalla did a few years ago: https://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/fairfax-financial/fairfax-2017-15646/msg320753/#msg320753 SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A_Hamilton Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 The blind squirrel found a nut! BB partnership with AMZN, shares back up to....where they were a few years ago. Recouping losses is better than adding to them though. Especially when you rewrote your convert. This.... 7$/share wouldn't have been anything previously with Fairfax's ability to convert to 50 million shares @ $10. But now Fairfax gets to convert into 55 million shares @ $6 - meaning they're ~$100 million in the money for bonds that wouldn't have been worth more than par back in September. Have you (or has any board participant) calculated FFH's break-even on its full investment in BB? It's mostly irrelevant because you cannot change your entry price, you can only choose whether to exit, but I am a bit curious. My mental guess would be about $10/sh, but that's just the result of faint memories of past discussions and accounting for the new conversion privilege for 55m shares. The prospect of exiting the BB position on a break-even basis (or gasp! a profitable basis) is encouraging. It's been a long ten years. <EDIT> Answering my own question, here's a bit of work that Valuehalla did a few years ago: https://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/fairfax-financial/fairfax-2017-15646/msg320753/#msg320753 SJ It's much higher than this. You'd have to look at old NAIC filings, but FFH didn't only own common equity it bought in the high $40's and low $50's, but also owned total return swaps long in RIMM / Blackberry. Glad there is the potential for a positive result form here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
petec Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I vaguely recall that the average cost is in the $17's. I think they disclosed this a few years ago. If you convert the bond at $6 you get something like $12. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwericb Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Yup $17 is the number I remember. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pedro Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Anyone else a bit suprised FFH hasn't moved more on this BB news? One of their major holdings up almost 60% and FFH moving less than 2% seems odd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwericb Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 Perhaps another situation of delayed reaction which often accompanies FFH good results? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StubbleJumper Posted December 1, 2020 Share Posted December 1, 2020 I vaguely recall that the average cost is in the $17's. I think they disclosed this a few years ago. If you convert the bond at $6 you get something like $12. Thanks, Pete. So the total position is still deeply under water, to say nothing of the time value of money. Oh well, at least it's moving in the right direction. SJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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