Mohnish Pabrai

[Spekulatius]

This just shows that Monish is a master marketer. But be it as it may, @John Hjorth donated to his charity and got a very nice thought out thank you from him. Nothing to complain about. You can be good in one thing and not that great in another. For all we know, his charity is doing great work and that’s all that matters in this particular context.

[Parsad]

8 hours ago, Vish_ram said:

Au contraire, learning from the Masters of this craft. Ban the bashers! 

 

The irony is that a few years ago, this sort of bashing was rampant on here...but about Prem's underperformance.  Now Prem is viewed in an almost God-like perspective!  Mohnish is a big boy...both literally and figuratively...he can handle the bashing.

 

The one consistent thing is that the psychological hazing that the critics throw out, flip flops with the times and sentiment.  If and when Mohnish turns it around...and usually it's after consistent bashing and underperformance...I can see some of the critics flipping again.  

 

Until he hits another period of underperformance where the bashing will start all over again.  C'est la vie! 

 

Incidentally, the only time we've banned the bashers was in 2003 when the attacks on FFH were happening.  Otherwise we don't censor opinions...unless they veer into politics which ruins the investment threads.

 

Cheers!

[Viking]

39 minutes ago, Parsad said:

The irony is that a few years ago, this sort of bashing was rampant on here...but about Prem's underperformance.  Now Prem is viewed in an almost God-like perspective! 

Ok. I have been know to use a little hyperbole on this board from time to time… but do we really think Prem has now re-ascended to ‘God-like’ status? That comment got a very loud laugh from me. Thank you! (I don’t think we are quite there... yet. Although I remain open minded  ). 

Edited Thursday at 08:42 AM by Viking

[Parsad]

49 minutes ago, Viking said:

Ok. I have been know to use a little hyperbole on this board from time to time… but do we really think Prem has now re-ascended to ‘God-like’ status? That comment got a very loud laugh from me. Thank you! (I don’t think we are quite there... yet. Although I remain open minded  ). 

 

Prem by no means thinks that...he's as humble as they come.  But the flipper-floppers...the one's who demonize at one period and then just as quickly glorify...yeah, the tide has turned on FFH and Prem again.  

 

And this seems to happen to Mohnish, to a lesser degree, after every significant underperforming period.  Even happened to the nicest person I know, and someone Prem greatly admires...Francis Chou.  Fortunately, Francis' fortunes turned earlier and the critics have somewhat backed off with Stonetrust kicking ass!

 

I think it comes down more to Francis' and Prem's demeanor compared to Mohnish.  Mohnish is much more brash, in your face type.  He makes no apologies and that rubs people the wrong way, so that makes for a bigger and obvious target.  Maybe if he wore a huge red baseball cap every where he'd be more loved!    Cheers! 

 

 

[Milu]

At the end of the day the investment returns don’t care if you are a nice guy or an asshole. I also don’t think a short term period(less than 5 years) of underperformance or overperformance matters either. All I care about is most recent 10-year CAGR as a minimum, after that 15, 20 year or longer. If anybody can point me to the returns data of Pabrai, Chou etc where they have demonstrated outperformance on such timeframes then that might change the story from nice guys to good investors.

[John Hjorth]

11 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

This just shows that Monish is a master marketer. But be it as it may, @John Hjorth donated to his charity and got a very nice thought out thank you from him. Nothing to complain about. You can be good in one thing and not that great in another. For all we know, his charity is doing great work and that’s all that matters in this particular context.

 

Yeah, exactly this what @Spekulatius expressed here was the intention with my post. The sharing of what I personally thought was a nice little story, bringing up some shades and nuances to Monish Pabrais personality made visible by the story it self, instead of the monotone and stereotype expressions almost always expressed about him here on CofB&F.

 

To me, naturally OK bringing up Cialdinis concepts here though.

 

As mentioned above by @Vish_ram, being a money manager is a craft, here meaning why shoulden't such a business not pratice marketing activities.

 

I personally don't need  Monish Pabrais services, or for that sake any money managers services, I personally enjoy immensely being a DIY person in that respect [money management], and spend on ongoing basis a lot of time doing it, likely, like most other CofB&F members enjoy and love doing this stuff. 

 

3 hours ago, Parsad said:

... I think it comes down more to Francis' and Prem's demeanor compared to Mohnish.  Mohnish is much more brash, in your face type.  He makes no apologies and that rubs people the wrong way, so that makes for a bigger and obvious target.  Maybe if he wore a huge red baseball cap every where he'd be more loved!    Cheers! 

 

This comment from Sanjeev [ @Parsad ] really caused a huge smile in my face! 

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Edit :

 

Ohh, I forgot : I had actually had to pay to receive this present from Monish Pabrai! - But that part of the story I won't tell here, because it is just perfect to stir the pot over in the topic about 'Is Europe becoming uninvestable'! 

Edited Thursday at 01:00 PM by John Hjorth

[dealraker]

I simply find those that use Berkshire/Buffett/Munger for self-gain to be blandly down on the lowest of any possible level ----- simply incredibly annoying.  But so many obviously first class people feel strong connections to these guys and enjoy doing so.

 

I think it is probably related to personality types.  LOL!  Life is great...if you can stand it!

 

[Rod]

I’m not a Mohnish hater. The only thing that really bothers me is that in these talks he gives, usually to schools, the students are lead to believe he has been earning 20%+ annual returns. He doesn’t say that himself but it's clearly implied. 

[John Hjorth]

2 hours ago, Rod said:

I’m not a Mohnish hater. The only thing that really bothers me is that in these talks he gives, usually to schools, the students are lead to believe he has been earning 20%+ annual returns. He doesn’t say that himself but it's clearly implied. 

 

I personally really dislike this approach to any person, @Rod. It opens basically up for 'accusing' about any person of having whatever personal egoistic motives, second thoughts, inferior incentives, for that person doing something good for other human beings.

 

You naturally can try to  prove your point by specific example[s]. Please post that [or them] here.

Edited Thursday at 03:47 PM by John Hjorth

[Blake Hampton]

I will say that I for one like Mohnish. If not as an investor, then as a teacher.

 

I’ve never looked too in-depth at his specific investments or returns over the years, but I did read his book and I thought it was pretty good.

 

Funny thing is, I’m pretty sure his book ultimately led me to this forum.

[throw123]

25 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

I personally really dislike this approach to any person, @Rod. It opens basically up for 'accusing' about any person of having whatever personal egoistic motives, second thoughts, inferior incentives, for that person doing something good for other human beings.

 

You naturally can try to  prove your point by specific example[s]. Please post that [or them] here.

 

[John Hjorth]

@thowed,

 

Thank you for posting, Taken at par here.  [My thought here is : What the h**k is he doing here, out in the 27^th potato row, with this?]

[throw123]

I learned about him a few years ago when he was all about cloning. I watched a few of his interviews which I found interesting at the time, where he alluded to these 20+ pa returns but digging deeper felt he wasnt my cup of tea.

My dislike for him developed more recently as it is now clear as day. He is no longer a "shameless cloner". He cleaned the slate by launching a new fund with a new strategy, which may very well beat the S&p 500 over the next 10 years but I believe the odds are that RSP or S&p 600 will likely beat it over the next decade as well, i dont think it would be a difficult feat from todays valuations  

[Rod]

1 hour ago, John Hjorth said:

 

I personally really dislike this approach to any person, @Rod. It opens basically up for 'accusing' about any person of having whatever personal egoistic motives, second thoughts, inferior incentives, for that person doing something good for other human beings.

 

You naturally can try to  prove your point by specific example[s]. Please post that [or them] here.

I used to watch all his presentations. I stopped several years ago. So I am not up to date. But, I would be prepared to bet that a poll of the students would show what I stated. Between the way Mohnish is introduced to the students and the way he himself continually talks about market beating returns (but never discloses his actual returns which are at best ordinary), it's not surprising that the students would be mislead. I should add that I think his talks are good, that's why I liked watching them. I only stopped because it was getting repetitive.

 

I should add that I WAS FOOLED. It was only when some enterprising people here compiled his actual returns that I realized that my impression of his abilities was wrong. And where did that impression come from? I was in the exact position as these students listening to his talks.

Edited Thursday at 05:21 PM by Rod

[Saluki]

I met Mohnish a couple of times in Toronto at the Fairfax side events.  He was pleasant and even signed my book.  (I am a book nerd and I have a copy of Security Analysis that Tom Russo signed, and a signed copy of Arnold Van den Berg's book too). He seemed very accessible in Toronto but there was a circle of admirers following him in Omaha wherever he went. 

 

I really don't get why he's so polarizing. Maybe it's because of his schtick where he says he's lazy and doesn't have any original ideas, and that he naps in the afternoon and still beats the market.  It seems to rub people the wrong way like the kid who hands in his math test in the first 30 minutes and walks out, and you are sweating over the next 1.5 hours. 

 

I think you can learn a lot from anyone, so you should watch his videos even if you dislike him. I do that with Peter Thiel, who is a literal vampire.  Even a white belt can teach you something because they react in ways that a "trained" opponent won't, so it's more like someone in an actual fight might react.  I thought his Coca Cola and Blue Chip Stamps explanations were very good.  Everyone who takes Securities Law (and a lot people who take Corporations) will have studied the Blue Chip Stamps case in their textbook and seen the spaghetti like ownership structure.  But while the case is pretty straightforward (you have a fiduciary duty to all your shareholder and you can't favor one set of shareholders over another set), I have never seen a law book or even a history of Buffett that does a good job of explaining how BCS worked and why it was set up (the dominant stamp company wouldn't do business with some supermarkets) and why the float was important.  So I don't know if he just did a really deep dive or got it explained to him by Charlie, but it's something that should be out there, and I'm glad it was there. 

 

I don't worship him like some of the newbie Fintok or YouTube people, but I don't feel any vitriol towards him either.  There some people in value investing circles who are "respected" but I get a bad vibe from.  I hate to talk bad about specific people, but since he's running for mayor and now fair game I will say that I never got a good vibe from Tilson, especially in person. Without naming names, someone who people like to call "the Warren Buffett of tech companies" and refers to himself as a billionaire always gave me weird vibes, and someone on the Fairfax board who is related to one of Prem's mentors never impressed me much.  

 

So I put Mohnish in the neutral/positive vibes camp.  I will say that some people that keep a low profile like Francis Chou and Packer are really nice in person and deserve the lime light even though they don't want it.  And among the people I've actually met, my favorite investing human, is definitely Arnold van den Berg. 

[John Hjorth]

1 hour ago, Rod said:

I used to watch all his presentations. I stopped several years ago. So I am not up to date. But, I would be prepared to bet that a poll of the students would show what I stated. Between the way Mohnish is introduced to the students and the way he himself continually talks about market beating returns (but never discloses his actual returns which are at best ordinary), it's not surprising that the students would be mislead. I should add that I think his talks are good, that's why I liked watching them. I only stopped because it was getting repetitive.

 

I should add that I WAS FOOLED. It was only when some enterprising people here compiled his actual returns that I realized that my impression of his abilities was wrong. And where did that impression come from? I was in the exact position as these students listening to his talks.

 

It's to me personally sincere and honest talk from your side, @Rod. I think I understand it better now, after reading the shades you have added. Thanks, & peace.

[Milu]

23 minutes ago, Saluki said:

I really don't get why he's so polarizing. Maybe it's because of his schtick where he says he's lazy and doesn't have any original ideas, and that he naps in the afternoon and still beats the market.  It seems to rub people the wrong way like the kid who hands in his math test in the first 30 minutes and walks out, and you are sweating over the next 1.5 hours

It's the 'still beats the market' bit that I think people have the issue with. Any track record history I've come across of Pabrai shows a failure to beat the market over any meaningful timeframe, yet he gives the impression that he is when he talks about compounding at 26% per year while napping.

 

Happy to be corrected if somebody wants to point me to the data. If he's taking naps and lazy while trouncing the market then I'd have a more favourable opinion of him

Edited Thursday at 07:24 PM by Milu

[Parsad]

12 hours ago, dealraker said:

I simply find those that use Berkshire/Buffett/Munger for self-gain to be blandly down on the lowest of any possible level ----- simply incredibly annoying.  But so many obviously first class people feel strong connections to these guys and enjoy doing so.

 

I think it is probably related to personality types.  LOL!  Life is great...if you can stand it!

 

 

Dealraker, I don't think it's as simple as that.  The majority of money managers who go into it after reading about Buffett and Munger or Ben Graham, do it because they are enormous believers and fans of theirs.  I certainly didn't do it solely to make money, but I felt that I was doing something almost noble...perpetuating this trust, belief in an intellectual framework for investing that actually works...compared to what Wall Street normally pushes.  That's also why I created this site.

 

The truth is that as much as the Ben Graham/Buffett acolytes want to perpetuate their form of investing, we aren't as good as they are and we make mistakes.  To some this comes off as marketing, but is just reality rising above ground and the truth becoming apparent.  I will never be as good as Buffett.  Mohnish will never be as good as Buffett.  Probably only a handful of people may go through a career, hold fast to performance and reach anywhere near that stratosphere...Prem has a shot.  

 

But it doesn't mean that people won't reach or try and emulate their heroes.  They will.  Cheers!

[Parsad]

6 hours ago, Milu said:

It's the 'still beats the market' bit that I think people have the issue with. Any track record history I've come across of Pabrai shows a failure to beat the market over any meaningful timeframe, yet he gives the impression that he is when he talks about compounding at 26% per year while napping.

 

Happy to be corrected if somebody wants to point me to the data. If he's taking naps and lazy while trouncing the market then I'd have a more favourable opinion of him

 

Well he hasn't.  That is obvious!  Doesn't mean he isn't aiming for 26% per year based on how he does his calculations for intrinsic value.

 

I think if you look at the majority of Mohnish's ideas, they probably hit that target.  But if you look at the losers, they diminished those gains significantly...especially in periods where he had correlated risk like during the financial crisis.

 

Cheers!

[cubsfan]

15 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Dealraker, I don't think it's as simple as that.  The majority of money managers who go into it after reading about Buffett and Munger or Ben Graham, do it because they are enormous believers and fans of theirs.  I certainly didn't do it solely to make money, but I felt that I was doing something almost noble...perpetuating this trust, belief in an intellectual framework for investing that actually works...compared to what Wall Street normally pushes.  That's also why I created this site.

 

+1 - Yup, most are well meaning and true believers in the discipline. It's important to have heroes and role models.

[oscarazocar]

On 1/2/2025 at 10:30 AM, John Hjorth said:

 

I personally really dislike this approach to any person, @Rod. It opens basically up for 'accusing' about any person of having whatever personal egoistic motives, second thoughts, inferior incentives, for that person doing something good for other human beings.

 

You naturally can try to  prove your point by specific example[s]. Please post that [or them] here.

 

The slides below are from a Dhando Zero Fee Fund presentation from 2021 Q3.  They show comparisons between three funds (Dhandho Zero Fee Fund, India Small Cap Index, and S&P 500) over two periods, 10/1/17 to 3/31/20 and 4/1/20 to 9/31/21.

 

The slides show the Dhandho fund slightly underperforming the India Small Cap Index from 10/1/17 to 3/31/20 and then hugely outperforming the S&P 500 from 4/1/20 to 9/31/21.  After looking at the slides, what was the total perfomance of the funds over the combined periods?

 

 

Combined performance:

 

Dhandho India Fund:
10/1/17-3/31/20: -52.5%

4/1/20-9/31/21: 119%

Total: 3% (not shown in slide)

 

India Small Cap:

10/1/17-3/31/20: -48.3%

4/1/20-9/31/21: 195% (not shown in slides)

Total: 52% (not shown in slides)

 

S&P 500:

10/1/17-3/31/20: 6% (not shown in slides)

4/1/20-9/31/21: 70.6%

Total: 81% (not shown in slides)

 

Do you think that the slides as shown are a reasonable way to compare the perfomances of the three funds?

[This2ShallPass]

On 12/31/2024 at 4:16 PM, John Hjorth said:

So consider the post above of mine a confession of my now former personal bias, negative bias towards Mr. Pabrai personally, for my part, that I personally - perhaps unjustly and without real and rational reason in the context - have adopted by reading CofB&F over the years

CoBF does not (really) like Pabrai, Ackman, Malone etc

 

On 1/1/2025 at 10:07 AM, Vish_ram said:

He has experience spinning 20 years of underperformance. A picture with Munger can go a long way and long time. 

Do you know how much was the underperformance in 20 years? I know he underperformed the last 5 or 6 years.

 

[TB]

If you read 2023 Dakshana annual report - https://www.dakshana.org/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/AR23.pdf, the inflows (contributions) are higher than expenses incurred. This is excluding the investment gains which, according to the letter have been spectacular in the first half of 2024. Mr Watsa contributes about a million USD a year. While one has to appreciate the prudent management and the compounding nature of this setup, it also shows there is no need for additional contributions from ordinary folks for this charity helmed by multi-millionaires and billionaires.  

 

There are many charities local (as noted by Parsad, the food banks or something like https://wish.org/) and remote where your dollar will go farther and will have more impact. 

 

 

Edited Friday at 09:37 PM by TB

[John Hjorth]

16 hours ago, TB said:

... While one has to appreciate the prudent management and the compounding nature of this setup, it also shows there is no need for additional contributions from ordinary folks for this charity helmed by multi-millionaires and billionaires.

 

There are many charities local (as noted by Parsad, the food banks or something like https://wish.org/) and remote where your dollar will go farther and will have more impact.

 

Well, here is what Monish himself as founder and chairman has to say about it [2023 Annual Report, p.4] :

 

 

So the business plans and the strategy for the foundation is growth, based on clear formulated and stated ambitions, and every dollar is welcome.

 

We all have our personal perceptions, preferences and personal frameworks for how to prioritize and allocate donations, if to donate anything at all. It certainly has a lot to do with personal perception of own financial position, too.

Edited Saturday at 02:23 PM by John Hjorth

[TB]

4 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

 

So the business plans and the strategy for the foundation is growth, based on clear formulated and stated ambitions, and every dollar is welcome.

 

We all have our personal perceptions, preferences and personal frameworks for how to prioritize and allocate donations, if to donate anything at all. It certainly has a lot to do with personal perception of own financial postion, too.

First of all, it is good to give and thank you for doing it. I/my family give to three-four charities every year a small amount. 

 

Yes, even Bill Gates welcomes additional dollars for his foundation - https://www.gatesfoundation.org/about/supporting-our-work.  My opinion is that wealthy foundations such as Gates, the mormon church (https://www.sltrib.com/news/2020/02/08/lds-church-kept-lid-its-b/) and Dakshana dont need an average person's help. Dakshana has a Canada branch (https://www.charitydata.ca/charity/dakshana-canada/823439443RR0001/), and has some very wealthy people on its board. It is not clear if this is reported in the other Dakshana annual report. 

 

I was inspired by Ronald Read and Sylvia Bloom, ordinary people that did extra-ordinary things for their community - https://time.com/3696980/attendant-8-dollar-million-bequest/ 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sylvia-bloom-frugal-secretary-hid-9m-fortune-she-joins-list-n871996

 

 

That said, giving is a very personal endeavor and everyone has their own tastes.

 

 

 

Edited Saturday at 02:10 PM by TB