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Prince Alwaleed and the fight with Forbes richest people data


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The article was fascinating, I felt like there was a back story I was missing.  The Prince calling the reporter at home, shadowing him for days in the Middle East?  Is this common for all the other people on the Forbes 400 list?  Does a Forbes reporter live at a Gates guest house for a week, or a Buffett guest house?

 

Maybe Alwaleed is really that vain and wants to get his message out, I can believe it.  I just couldn't help but think there was more to the story that we weren't hearing about.

 

That said for how rich the guy is it's amazing how obsessed he is with appearing richer.  Maybe I don't have the genes it takes to be ultra-rich, but the fact that this guy has billions and wants billions more is crazy.  What could he possibly not buy with $10b that he could suddenly buy for $18b?  From the article it appears that this is all just about a wealth number and being at the top.

 

On the Forbes 400 there was a story floating on the internet about the guy who founded the Duty Free empire.  The story was cool in that he amassed a fortune, and gave it all away without anyone knowing.  Forbes claimed he was a billionaire due to his business holdings yet he'd given away everything but a few million dollars.  He said the number he saw in Forbes wasn't connected with any reality he knew, he wasn't sure how they calculated it.  Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/09/18/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-is-trying-to-go-broke/

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The article was fascinating, I felt like there was a back story I was missing.  The Prince calling the reporter at home, shadowing him for days in the Middle East?  Is this common for all the other people on the Forbes 400 list?  Does a Forbes reporter live at a Gates guest house for a week, or a Buffett guest house?

 

Maybe Alwaleed is really that vain and wants to get his message out, I can believe it.  I just couldn't help but think there was more to the story that we weren't hearing about.

 

That said for how rich the guy is it's amazing how obsessed he is with appearing richer.  Maybe I don't have the genes it takes to be ultra-rich, but the fact that this guy has billions and wants billions more is crazy.  What could he possibly not buy with $10b that he could suddenly buy for $18b?  From the article it appears that this is all just about a wealth number and being at the top.

 

On the Forbes 400 there was a story floating on the internet about the guy who founded the Duty Free empire.  The story was cool in that he amassed a fortune, and gave it all away without anyone knowing.  Forbes claimed he was a billionaire due to his business holdings yet he'd given away everything but a few million dollars.  He said the number he saw in Forbes wasn't connected with any reality he knew, he wasn't sure how they calculated it.  Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/09/18/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-is-trying-to-go-broke/

 

I may or may not be 4 triples away from being a billionaire.  How will Forbes know?  Will Fidelity or Interactive Brokers sell me out, or will I have to call the front desk at Forbes and ask to talk with the 400 list guy?

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The article was fascinating, I felt like there was a back story I was missing.  The Prince calling the reporter at home, shadowing him for days in the Middle East?  Is this common for all the other people on the Forbes 400 list?  Does a Forbes reporter live at a Gates guest house for a week, or a Buffett guest house?

 

Maybe Alwaleed is really that vain and wants to get his message out, I can believe it.  I just couldn't help but think there was more to the story that we weren't hearing about.

 

That said for how rich the guy is it's amazing how obsessed he is with appearing richer.  Maybe I don't have the genes it takes to be ultra-rich, but the fact that this guy has billions and wants billions more is crazy.  What could he possibly not buy with $10b that he could suddenly buy for $18b?  From the article it appears that this is all just about a wealth number and being at the top.

 

On the Forbes 400 there was a story floating on the internet about the guy who founded the Duty Free empire.  The story was cool in that he amassed a fortune, and gave it all away without anyone knowing.  Forbes claimed he was a billionaire due to his business holdings yet he'd given away everything but a few million dollars.  He said the number he saw in Forbes wasn't connected with any reality he knew, he wasn't sure how they calculated it.  Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/09/18/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-is-trying-to-go-broke/

 

I may or may not be 4 triples away from being a billionaire.  How will Forbes know?  Will Fidelity or Interactive Brokers sell me out, or will I have to call the front desk at Forbes and ask to talk with the 400 list guy?

 

Exactly, I've read stories where people should have been on that list for decades but they are secretive so Forbes was never aware of them.  Then there are all the promotional people on that list as well, who knows what their real fortunes are.

 

I hate to admit it, but I will.  I subscribed to Forbes years ago, the magazine circled the drain, and the 400 issue was in the drain.  I never understood the point except to gawk at rich people.  I never got it, the list was 400 people who were workaholics and invested their lives in their business.  The list I want to gawk at are the people sitting on the beach who have enough, but realized there are more important things in life than accumulating some giant number.

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I may or may not be 4 triples away from being a billionaire.  How will Forbes know?  Will Fidelity or Interactive Brokers sell me out, or will I have to call the front desk at Forbes and ask to talk with the 400 list guy?

Exactly, I've read stories where people should have been on that list for decades but they are secretive so Forbes was never aware of them.  Then there are all the promotional people on that list as well, who knows what their real fortunes are.

 

I know they missed the Jackmans (ELF.TO) for years.  I guess not having a website throws them off.  ;) 

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She is actually quite impressive:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDbIn6Erk4Y

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-04-26/alwaleed-holds-wallet-with-warren-buffett-as-princely-riches-incur-setback.html

 

“When he was my age, he was not as big as me,” Alwaleed says. “I still have 20 years.”

 

http://www.bloomberg.com/image/i__TLvF_aLkc.jpg

 

 

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Ericopoly,

 

Once you have reached some large number in stocks holdings, I believe it is 100 millions in the U.S., then you have to file with the SEC or just like the 13 HR that we keep looking at from fund managers.

 

Unless I have misunderstood the law, then it makes Forbes job pretty easy.

 

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Ericopoly,

 

Once you have reached some large number in stocks holdings, I believe it is 100 millions in the U.S., then you have to file with the SEC or just like the 13 HR that we keep looking at from fund managers.

 

Unless I have misunderstood the law, then it makes Forbes job pretty easy.

 

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I haven't seen such a filing for Warren Buffett's private holdings.

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http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/315090/000119312513060393/d481780d13fnt.txt

 

If you read the 13 HR from Berkshire Hathaway under #4, it should include what Buffett holds privately. The 13 HR is really a disclosure of who controls what and has authority to vote the shares. However, it won't include debt, muni's and cash that Buffett may hold.

 

Again, maybe that I am wrong, but that is how I interpret the SEC filing requirement.

 

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“When he was my age, he was not as big as me,” Alwaleed says. “I still have 20 years.”

 

I'll admit I haven't studied Alwaleed's investments much, but of course he had a larger dollar figure at his age than Buffett did. Alwaleed started with way more money so lower returns are required to achieve a higher dollar amount. Also, both Buffett and Munger say that the huge returns come from compounding for the long term, so can the Prince maintain excellent returns? If he can manage huge amounts of money and still maintain excellent returns, he will likely have a higher dollar figure when he dies than Buffett does (not to mention Buffett is giving a lot of money away).

 

It's interesting to think about why he would want to push his rankings up. Beside's the obvious factor of an ego boost, he has more perceived power when his reported wealth is higher. One downside is if he continues to lobby excessively for the boost and people find out about it, it could undermine his credibility. How significantly so I'm not so sure, but I'm sure he wouldn't want that at all.

 

 

She is actually quite impressive:

 

www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDbIn6Erk4Y

 

I really do hope they can create change in the Middle East. Saudi Arabia won't be hurt with more people working and creating and innovating in the economy. Nor will the world.

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http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/315090/000119312513060393/d481780d13fnt.txt

 

If you read the 13 HR from Berkshire Hathaway under #4, it should include what Buffett holds privately. The 13 HR is really a disclosure of who controls what and has authority to vote the shares. However, it won't include debt, muni's and cash that Buffett may hold.

 

Again, maybe that I am wrong, but that is how I interpret the SEC filing requirement.

 

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Hopefully it's only if you directly own 100m worth of stock.  In other words, maybe if you own 50m of mutual funds and 50m of stocks, then no filing is necessary?  Otherwise it seems like this is an invasion of privacy -- how do you keep your wealth secret from your children if you are filing with the SEC?

 

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On the Forbes 400 there was a story floating on the internet about the guy who founded the Duty Free empire.  The story was cool in that he amassed a fortune, and gave it all away without anyone knowing.  Forbes claimed he was a billionaire due to his business holdings yet he'd given away everything but a few million dollars.  He said the number he saw in Forbes wasn't connected with any reality he knew, he wasn't sure how they calculated it.  Here it is: http://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbertoni/2012/09/18/chuck-feeney-the-billionaire-who-is-trying-to-go-broke/

 

Great book on Chuck Feeney, I highly recommend it:

 

http://www.amazon.com/The-Billionaire-Who-Wasnt-Fortune/dp/B001E95J70/

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http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/315090/000119312513060393/d481780d13fnt.txt

 

If you read the 13 HR from Berkshire Hathaway under #4, it should include what Buffett holds privately. The 13 HR is really a disclosure of who controls what and has authority to vote the shares. However, it won't include debt, muni's and cash that Buffett may hold.

 

Again, maybe that I am wrong, but that is how I interpret the SEC filing requirement.

 

Cardboard

 

Hopefully it's only if you directly own 100m worth of stock.  In other words, maybe if you own 50m of mutual funds and 50m of stocks, then no filing is necessary?  Otherwise it seems like this is an invasion of privacy -- how do you keep your wealth secret from your children if you are filing with the SEC?

 

http://www.sec.gov/divisions/investment/13ffaq.htm

 

''...but a natural person who exercises investment discretion over his or her own account is not an institutional investment manager"

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http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/315090/000119312513060393/d481780d13fnt.txt

 

If you read the 13 HR from Berkshire Hathaway under #4, it should include what Buffett holds privately. The 13 HR is really a disclosure of who controls what and has authority to vote the shares. However, it won't include debt, muni's and cash that Buffett may hold.

 

Again, maybe that I am wrong, but that is how I interpret the SEC filing requirement.

 

Cardboard

 

Hopefully it's only if you directly own 100m worth of stock.  In other words, maybe if you own 50m of mutual funds and 50m of stocks, then no filing is necessary?  Otherwise it seems like this is an invasion of privacy -- how do you keep your wealth secret from your children if you are filing with the SEC?

 

http://www.sec.gov/divisions/investment/13ffaq.htm

 

''...but a natural person who exercises investment discretion over his or her own account is not an institutional investment manager"

 

Nice.  Thanks.

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This quarterly 13F filing requirement seems only be intended for institutional investors (i.e., banks, insurance companies, mutual funds, hedge funds) that hold more than $100m in AUM of others people's money (OPM). Of course you would also have to file with the SEC other insider forms as a private individual, if someone is a material shareholder with a big percentage stake even in a tiny/small cap company like ITEX or Chanticleer Holdings with a market cap of only $5-10m. Sanjeev had to do so some time ago for the partnership.

 

http://holdings.nasdaq.com/asp/Help/Holdings.asp?strParamsCommon

 

Institutional Holdings information is filed by major institutions on form 13-F with the Securities and Exchange Commission. Major institutions are defined as firms or individuals that exercise investment discretion, over the assets of others, in excess of $100 Million. Major institutions include financial holdings companies, banks, insurance companies, mutual fund managers, portfolio managers, self managed pension and endowment funds. The report is limited to equity securities, including common and equivalents, convertible preferred and convertible bonds. The report does not include fixed income, real estate, or cash equivalents. Reports are filed within 45 days after calendar quarter end with the vast majority of updates occurring near the 45th day of the quarter.

 

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http://www.sec.gov/Archives/edgar/data/315090/000119312513060393/d481780d13fnt.txt

 

If you read the 13 HR from Berkshire Hathaway under #4, it should include what Buffett holds privately. The 13 HR is really a disclosure of who controls what and has authority to vote the shares. However, it won't include debt, muni's and cash that Buffett may hold.

 

Again, maybe that I am wrong, but that is how I interpret the SEC filing requirement.

 

Cardboard

 

Hopefully it's only if you directly own 100m worth of stock.  In other words, maybe if you own 50m of mutual funds and 50m of stocks, then no filing is necessary?  Otherwise it seems like this is an invasion of privacy -- how do you keep your wealth secret from your children if you are filing with the SEC?

 

http://www.sec.gov/divisions/investment/13ffaq.htm

 

''...but a natural person who exercises investment discretion over his or her own account is not an institutional investment manager"

 

Nice.  Thanks.

 

Eric,...

 

if some private individual shareholder holds some $1m investment in BAC, he/she seems to be for the SEC some poor fellow.

 

but if someone holds $1m in ITEX (only $9m market cap company), you are a material big dealer shareholder....

 

I remember even Sanjeev's MPIC funds had to file Form 3 & 4 some years ago for holding ITEX.

http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-edgar?company=Mpic&match=contains&action=getcompany

 

So I guess if any of us board members only buys some relative tiny stake in a really tiny small cap company, he/she might be required to file at least some form.

 

I remember reading an article that even an retired old lady was accidentally exposed in some SEC filing from a mutual fund company, only for holding some $500k in some very, very tiny money market fund (it was some tiny sub-fund in a big group of funds, only having some tiny $1-2m in AUM).

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So I guess if any of us board members only buys some relative tiny stake in a really tiny small cap company, he/she might be required to file at least some form.

 

Yes, you would have to file if you own 5% or more of an issuer...regardless of dollar amount or size of company...it's 10% in Canada. 

 

Eric would not have to file a report if he did have $100M, $500M or even a billion.  What happens is that when you start to get into those amounts, usually people create corporations, trusts, etc that hold the assets, and then they do have to file a 13-F as an institution. 

 

If Eric holds the assets in his own personal account and name, outside of any sort of entity, then he would not have to file anything.  The brokerage institution probably reports these accounts to the SEC and IRS regardless, so they would know who has how much money in what...Forbes would not know that. 

 

So no worries Eric.  Your secret will be safe with us, as you fly around on your Marquis Jet Card, surfing the internet at 20,000 feet.  Cheers! 

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Prince Alaweed is an interesting fellow.  On one hand he is a bombast. 

 

However, he has done alot to advance the cause of women in Saudi Arabia, hiring them in his companies, promoting them to positions of power, and getting rid of the "dress code". 

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