Iran - Israel - Gaza Conflict

[SharperDingaan]

The only folks who fear peace are the warlords, and the extremists; as without a continuous war in Gaza, there is no place for them. They are of course, still free to eliminate each other via the long-standing state-on-state shadow wars, but one has to think that the Gaza war itself is coming to an end; as it's just too costly to maintain.   

 

SD 

 

 

 

[AzCactus]

Help me understand how Hamas agreed to any proposal.  Didn't they basically just give a counter offer to Israel?  

 

If you change the terms of what is initially offered, what you are accepting is not what was initially proposed.  Someone let me know what I'm missing. 

[tooskinneejs]

2 hours ago, SharperDingaan said:

 

Too bad,  the press reports otherwise ...  https://ca.news.yahoo.com/israel-gaza-live-updates-idf-074412294.html  Ismail Haniyeh, head of the political bureau of the Hamas movement, said in a statement the group has called the prime minister of Qatar and Egyptian minister of intelligence "and informed them of the Hamas movement's approval of their proposal regarding the ceasefire agreement."

 

SD

I think this is like a police officer saying over and over again to a trespasser, "leave the property or you will be arrested."  Then finally when the police officer has given many chances and begins to arrest the trespasser, the trespasser responds, "no, don't arrest me I am going to leave now."  Well, its too late.

 

And as an aside, I wonder how logical is it to accept the word of a terrorist.  It seems their credibility would be naturally strained.

[Xerxes]

Two vipers can talk and understand each other perfectly fine. Leave them be. 

[formthirteen]

Political jiu-jitsu, tactics, and playbooks:

https://beautifultrouble.org/toolbox/tool/play-to-the-audience-that-isnt-there

 

 

[mcliu]

This is why mainstream media has lost all its credibility. They just accept whatever is said and pass it on as “news” as long as it fulfils their narrative.

[SharperDingaan]

Media has long been just another propaganda medium, with the reward going to whoever can best control the channel. We're just accustomed to an earlier time when the technology was in its infancy, and the media were state broadcasters (PRAVDA, BBC, etc.)

 

Today,technology has 'democratised' the channel; by broadening the number of swim lanes, and reducing the barriers (journalistic standards) between lanes. Today's compelling, live-time, unsubstantiated you-tube video is driven by network effect, and carries as much weight as the press release from an esteemed source; but is seen by many more, and in real time. And with imagery that used to come from a Hollywood studio, now manipulated via AI, and in real time.

 

The technology may change; but the objectives/techniques remain the same, and are now harder to hide. However, should an enterprising lad be able to recognise some of the manipulation techniques? he/she could do very well .....

 

If you're going to do investing you need to add propaganda expertise to your skill set, and its right up there alongside the CFA.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

 

  

Edited May 7 by SharperDingaan

[mcliu]

4 hours ago, AzCactus said:

Help me understand how Hamas agreed to any proposal.  Didn't they basically just give a counter offer to Israel?  

 

If you change the terms of what is initially offered, what you are accepting is not what was initially proposed.  Someone let me know what I'm missing. 

Hamas: I want X

Israel: I want Y

Hamas: Ok, I accept X

 

Media: Hamas accepts ceasefire.

LOL

[lnofeisone]

On 5/5/2024 at 8:46 PM, Xerxes said:

 

It is not Foreign Affairs, BBC World News nor The Economist.

Don't look for great analysis:  on one hand the Israeli did this, on the other hand Hamas did that etc.

 

It is a clip is about a person expressing a strong opinion and dislike about Bibi. 

Naturally, filled with his biases. Right or wrong.

 

 

Bernie should know better. His time in US Gov't will soon come to an end and with it all of his loonie ideas. Though Bernie is probably the least harmful of the bunch that includes AOC, Ilhan Omar, etc. 

[lnofeisone]

16 hours ago, SharperDingaan said:

 

A great many combatants and civilians died during WWII simply because there was nowhere else for them to go; carpet bombing and getting shot for refusal to fight being the norm. Not a lot different from a Palestinian trapped in Gaza today, and an IDF conscript balking at comitting a potential war crime in Rafah, because they were ordered to.

 

Not the message the propagandists have in mind.

 

SD

SD - I respect many of your opinions, but you are out of depth on this one. There are very few IDF conscripts that are refusing to go to Rafah (I have a relatively large Israeli family across the political spectrum, with a couple serving in Gaza, or are about to go to Gaza). And ever fewer consider it a war crime. And in reality, going into Rafah is not a war crime at all. 

[lnofeisone]

4 hours ago, mcliu said:

Hamas: I want X

Israel: I want Y

Hamas: Ok, I accept X

 

Media: Hamas accepts ceasefire.

LOL

It's worse than that. They took the Israeli offer and changed the language and now say they accepted it.

 

Israel: We want 33 live hostages

Hamas: We will give 33 live or dead hostages

Hamas: OK we accept!

 

There are few other things language changes that basically cancel out all the non-negotiables for Israel.

 

[SharperDingaan]

7 hours ago, lnofeisone said:

SD - I respect many of your opinions, but you are out of depth on this one. There are very few IDF conscripts that are refusing to go to Rafah (I have a relatively large Israeli family across the political spectrum, with a couple serving in Gaza, or are about to go to Gaza). And ever fewer consider it a war crime. And in reality, going into Rafah is not a war crime at 

 

Thank you. I just have experience with other very good conscript armies that are similar.

 

When everything is going your way there are no issues, but when it gets to the things that will be very hairy, it's typically the professionals that are sent in and not the conscripts. When its too hairy even for the professionals, it's the mercenaries. Not a bad thing, it's simply commanders trying to protect the conscripts from the worst of the horrors that are about to happen; not a lot different to rescue workers pulling mangled bodies out of car wrecks on the side of the highway.

 

But when there aren't enough professionals left, and the conscripts have to go; things can go badly,

and very quickly. And if the other guy doesn't have the professionals either, it becomes a sociopath breeding ground; with the worst offenders have amazing survivability. Those sociopaths escape .... and you get the crop of future dictators.

 

Great faith in the IDF, but it has been a long war and there has been a lot of dehuminization already. Rafah will leave a lot scars, and atrocities are unavoidable. Best all round if it doesn't happen.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

 

[SharperDingaan]

Bernie thing ...

 

He merely points out that what is going on in Gaza, is just wrong; and that keeping quiet for fear of being branded antisemitic is not racist; it is simply not acquiescing to what is going on, and recognising that when millions of people around the globe similarly speak up, change is much more likely. It's rebellion, and a propagandist nightmare. 

 

The propagandist (warlord, extremist) solution is to fan the fear of antisemitism, as the more perceived antisemitism the diaspora experiences, the more support it generates at home; the state exists so that Jewish people everywhere have a safe 'home', and see! - it is clearly needed, and it takes money/weapons to support. Cast speaking out on Gaza as antisemitic, the Bernie's as doddering fools, and the student protests around the world as threats .... seem familiar?

 

Much as in playoff hockey, occasionally there are teams/players that lose it, and insist on playing rough. Elbows/sticks go up, the hits get harder, and individuals get targeted, to get the message across - give it a rest. It persists, injuries climb, eventually either the player or the team loses the playoff round, everyone walks away with bruises, and the remaining playoff games for the winning teams are less than they could be. Gaza atrocities/synagogue targeting are just different manifestations of rough hockey; nobody wins.

 

No dog in this, other than a ceasefire will instantly drop the price of o/g. If it also results in fewer deaths, and more people retaining their limbs, so much the better. Field treatment and prosthetics have come a long way, but its better never to require one.

 

SD

 

 

       

Edited May 7 by SharperDingaan

[Castanza]

29 minutes ago, SharperDingaan said:

If it also results in fewer deaths, and more people retaining their limbs, so much the better. Field treatment and prosthetics have come a long way, but its better never to require one.

 

SD

Wounds outlive the physical in the mind and manifest themselves throughout future generations. This conflict was not the start of this war and certainly will not be the end. 

 

“It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way.”
― Cormac McCarthy, Blood Meridian (The Judge)

[cubsfan]

37 minutes ago, SharperDingaan said:

Bernie thing ...

 

He merely points out that what is going on in Gaza, is just wrong; and that keeping quiet for fear of being branded antisemitic is not racist; it is simply not acquiescing to what is going on, and recognising that when millions of people around the globe similarly speak up, change is much more likely. It's rebellion, and a propagandist nightmare. 

 

The propagandist (warlord, extremist) solution is to fan the fear of antisemitism, as the more perceived antisemitism the diaspora experiences, the more support it generates at home; the state exists so that Jewish people everywhere have a safe 'home', and see! - it is clearly needed, and it takes money/weapons to support. Cast speaking out on Gaza as antisemitic, the Bernie's as doddering fools, and the student protests around the world as threats .... seem familiar?

 

Much as in playoff hockey, occasionally there are teams/players that lose it, and insist on playing rough. Elbows/sticks go up, the hits get harder, and individuals get targeted, to get the message across - give it a rest. It persists, injuries climb, eventually either the player or the team loses the playoff round, everyone walks away with bruises, and the remaining playoff games for the winning teams are less than they could be. Gaza atrocities/synagogue targeting are just different manifestations of rough hockey; nobody wins.

 

No dog in this, other than a ceasefire will instantly drop the price of o/g. If it also results in fewer deaths, and more people retaining their limbs, so much the better. Field treatment and prosthetics have come a long way, but its better never to require one.

 

SD

 

 

       

 

Spoken like a true pacifist. Welcome to the real world where you fight to save your country.  The terrorists in Gaza will suffer utter defeat & humiliation, as they should.

 

And if they continue to elect terrorist's governments - they are destined for a lifetime of misery.

[ValueArb]

I think Israel should immediately halt all military activities in Gaza, and conduct an orderly withdrawal, just as soon as all the hostages are released and Hamas leaders in custody.

[Castanza]

I remember in HS a teacher prompted us with the introspective question of If you were a 16+ year old German before WWII who would you have supported. Everyone said they would have gone against the grain and supported the Jewish people.

 

We are watching real time, the failure of peoples personal optimism when contemplating this question. College campuses across the globe sadly don't look much different than this. 

 

 

Regarding the conflict: Civilian deaths suck...we all agree...welcome to the reality of war that we have been fortunate enough to avoid here in the States for a long time. 

 

Regarding the sentiment: The amount of support for antisemitism right now is baffling. If you find yourself supporting or partaking in similar actions as the photo above....you're rooting for the wrong team. 

 

 

[cubsfan]

^^^ The majority of Americans support your view. They detest antisemitism. On college campuses, we are seeing a sizable minority of lunatic faculty and students alike showing hatred for Jews. Students I can almost understand - but faculty, that has never grown up or held a real job - is a travesty.

 

Such is the cesspool of many of our universities in America.

[Xerxes]

1 hour ago, Castanza said:

I remember in HS a teacher prompted us with the introspective question of If you were a 16+ year old German before WWII who would you have supported. Everyone said they would have gone against the grain and supported the Jewish people.

 

We are watching real time, the failure of peoples personal optimism when contemplating this question. College campuses across the globe sadly don't look much different than this. 

 

 

Regarding the conflict: Civilian deaths suck...we all agree...welcome to the reality of war that we have been fortunate enough to avoid here in the States for a long time. 

 

Regarding the sentiment: The amount of support for antisemitism right now is baffling. If you find yourself supporting or partaking in similar actions as the photo above....you're rooting for the wrong team. 

 

 

I don’t follow (nor care) about campuses that much. It should be a place of learning as far as I am concerned. 
 

That said, i rather be a Jewish person in North America* dealing with antisemitic morons than be a Palestinian in Gaza/WestBank with no prospect and to be shot dead depending on the mood of the IDF soldier firing the bullet and/or indirectly by Hamas thugs.  
 

The dead don’t care about politics. 
 

*Being a minority in North America, that I am use to it. 
 

As far as your example of 1930s, maybe you should look into extreme right factions in (elected) Israeli government. Somehow it has become ok to kill “vermins” and to de-humanize a whole population. 
 

Fine, it war. It is ugly. Hamas, Gaza, Nagasaki, Hiroshima. Blah blah blah. Go all in. Make a splash. A “few” bad apples shoot unarmed women walking down the street. Ok. Makes sense that is not systematic. 

 

So solve me this riddle ?

 

why is the killing in West Bank have gone up. So is it really Hamas, or much more than that. How deep is that expansionary right wing ideology has seeped itself into IDF and their society. 

[Castanza]

17 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

I don’t follow (nor care) about campuses that much. It should be a place of learning as far as I am concerned. 
 

That said, i rather be a Jewish person in North America* dealing with antisemitic morons than be a Palestinian in Gaza/WestBank with no prospect and to be shot dead depending on the mood of the IDF soldier firing the bullet and/or indirectly by Hamas thugs.  
 

The dead don’t care about politics. 
 

*Being a minority in North America, that I am use to it. 
 

As far as your example of 1930s, maybe you should look into extreme right factions in (elected) Israeli government. Somehow it has become ok to kill “vermins” and to de-humanize a whole population. 
 

Fine, it war. It is ugly. Hamas, Gaza, Nagasaki, Hiroshima. Blah blah blah. Go all in. Make a splash. A “few” bad apples shoot unarmed women walking down the street. Ok. Makes sense that is not systematic. 

 

So solve me this riddle ?

 

why is the killing in West Bank have gone up. So is it really Hamas, or much more than that. How deep is that expansionary right wing ideology has seeped itself into IDF and their society. 

What exactly do you define as “right wing? Because compared to Arab nations, Israel is about as progressive as they come.  
 

Women, Children, humanitarian zones, aid uniforms and other disguises have been utilized by many Arab “nations” to wreak havoc on opposing forces. 
 

Would you rather be a Jew in Gaza or a Palestinian in Israel? 

[Ulti]

4 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

How deep is that expansionary right wing ideology has seeped itself into IDF and their society. 

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/12/1148410190/netanyahu-israel-orthodox-conservative-bibi-anshell-pfeffer

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/experts-react-bibi-is-back-back-again-for-now/

 Having talked to friends etc. over in Israel, I can maybe say a few things.

- Majority of Israelis do not like Bibi ,his right wing government due to his October 7th failure , trying to take over (neuter ) the judiciary so corruption charges wouldn't be filed . They also don't like the social ideas of the far right as well as the ultra orthodox ( approx 14%of population) not serving in the military and getting all sorts of handouts. Where in the past there were centrist checks on Bibi ;there are none now.

- Make no mistake ; vast majority of Israelis see this as a war against Hamas (and Iran and its proxies ).

- Tom Friedman has been spot on as to whats happening in Israel

https://dnyuz.com/2024/05/02/israel-and-saudi-arabia-are-trading-places/. The only solution is a roadmap for a Pal. State without Hamas combined with an Israeli \moderate Arab and US partnership to check Iran.

- I hope Arafat is in one of Dante's circles for declining the deal

 

[Xerxes]

19 minutes ago, Ulti said:

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/12/1148410190/netanyahu-israel-orthodox-conservative-bibi-anshell-pfeffer

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs/menasource/experts-react-bibi-is-back-back-again-for-now/

 Having talked to friends etc. over in Israel, I can maybe say a few things.

- Majority of Israelis do not like Bibi ,his right wing government due to his October 7th failure , trying to take over (neuter ) the judiciary so corruption charges wouldn't be filed . They also don't like the social ideas of the far right as well as the ultra orthodox ( approx 14%of population) not serving in the military and getting all sorts of handouts. Where in the past there were centrist checks on Bibi ;there are none now.

- Make no mistake ; vast majority of Israelis see this as a war against Hamas (and Iran and its proxies ).

- Tom Friedman has been spot on as to whats happening in Israel

https://dnyuz.com/2024/05/02/israel-and-saudi-arabia-are-trading-places/. The only solution is a roadmap for a Pal. State without Hamas combined with an Israeli \moderate Arab and US partnership to check Iran.

- I hope Arafat is in one of Dante's circles for declining the deal

 

Thanks Ulti,

that is very helpful 

 

For me it is more like an acid test, if folks in North America cannot even acknowledge some of the unsavoury character in the Israeli cabinet (w/o making excuses), they are just repeating talking points. 

[Castanza]

9 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

Thanks Ulti,

that is very helpful 

 

For me it is more like an acid test, if folks in North America cannot even acknowledge some of the unsavoury character in the Israeli cabinet (w/o making excuses), they are just repeating talking points. 

Israel is not perfect in any way shape or form. Follow their 6000 year history and they have done their share of unsavory things. 

[Xerxes]

31 minutes ago, Castanza said:

What exactly do you define as “right wing? Because compared to Arab nations, Israel is about as progressive as they come.  
 

Women, Children, humanitarian zones, aid uniforms and other disguises have been utilized by many Arab “nations” to wreak havoc on opposing forces. 
 

Would you rather be a Jew in Gaza or a Palestinian in Israel? 

What exactly do you define as “right wing? Because compared to Arab nations, Israel is about as progressive as they come.  
 

Right wing ? any people or group of people bent on annihilation or submission of another group of people. Hamas, Ben-Gvir and his ilk, Ali Khameni all fall into that basket. Their hatred can be codified into slogans, into direct actions covert or overt. 
 

The excuse that “ohhh look we got Stalin, but it is better than Hitler” is frankly not answer. 
 

Nor the excuse that it is “western democratically elected” so it is all good and takes a pass. For Christ’ sake, Hitler was democratically elected. That didn’t make him nor cabinet any good. And yes Hiter 1933 was not the we came to know until 1940s.  

 

Women, Children, humanitarian zones, aid uniforms and other disguises have been utilized by many Arab “nations” to wreak havoc on opposing forces. 

what do I do with this comment ? I am talking about West Bank. I have no clue what you mean or trying to say with this seemingly random high level comment. 
 

Would you rather be a Jew in Gaza or a Palestinian in Israel? 

 

is that a joke ? Of course I rather be a Palestinian in Israel.
 

Did I pass your test for biasness ? Guess what you didn’t pass mine. 

[Castanza]

2 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

What exactly do you define as “right wing? Because compared to Arab nations, Israel is about as progressive as they come.  
 

Right wing ? any people or group of people bent on annihilation or submission of another group of people. Hamas, Ben-Gvir and his ilk, Ali Khameni all fall into that basket. Their hatred can be codified into slogans, into direct actions covert or overt. 
 

The excuse that “ohhh look we got Stalin, but it is better than Hitler” is frankly not answer. 
 

Nor the excuse that it is “western democratically elected” so it is all good and takes a pass. For Christ’ sake, Hitler was democratically elected. That didn’t make him nor cabinet any good. And yes Hiter 1933 was not the we came to know until 1940s.  

 

Women, Children, humanitarian zones, aid uniforms and other disguises have been utilized by many Arab “nations” to wreak havoc on opposing forces. 

what do I do with this comment ? I am talking about West Bank. I have no clue what you mean or trying to say with this seemingly random high level comment. 
 

Would you rather be a Jew in Gaza or a Palestinian in Israel? 

 

is that a joke ? Of course I rather be a Palestinian in Israel.
 

Did I pass your test for biasness ? Guess what you didn’t pass mine. 

What bias do I have? I’ve supported many of your views on US vs Arab nation engagement in this forum for a long time. I think in general most cultures should keep to themselves because mixing of some simply doesn’t work. The Middle East has its problems, but I understand their reasonings or origins of hatred of the west etc. 

 

I just think with this current conflict there isn’t much to stand on for Palestine. I don’t think Israel is an occupier or committing genocide. I think it’s a shitty situation with some bad feelings on both sides that will never be easily resolved.
 

I try hard to understand both sides of the coin (hence my view on Russia/Ukraine I share with you)