Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[Xerxes]

5 minutes ago, LC said:

Putin could end the war any day he wants by removing his troops from Ukrainian land.

Lay the blame where it belongs.

True. 
but geopolitics has far more to do with national interests, than the “blame” game. 

[cubsfan]

17 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

 

Unfortunately, they are going to make him crawl and beg for it. Not good. 

 

It is much better for Ukraine this way. Ukraine has to realize that the country MUST want peace

if they wish anymore US involvement.  Perhaps Zelensky is not the leader they need.

 

But cutting off aid is a very serious message that Trump means business, regardless of who is negotiating for Ukraine.   Better to have the information now, then drag this out for their country.

 

Also,  it's very good to be clear with the leaders of Europe what is the US position.

Edited Tuesday at 01:49 AM by cubsfan

[Gregmal]

I mean even if one knew absolutely nothing, say you take a 5 year old….they could look at a map and see Russia and Ukraine and a conflict is certainly within the realm of possibility. Lots of reasons a lot of things could happen.
 

So once again we apply the same situation, looking at a map, and one is again left with wondering, WTF does the US have to do with this, and why is it involved? And any bit of history will inform one that since the Cold War, the US has basically done everything it can to provoke and weaken Russia. And then go back and tell their citizens they’re promoting democracy and anything to the contrary is evil dictator Putins misinformation. 

[sleepydragon]

It’s interesting and surprising that the official tvs in china have a change of tone and are singing praises for Ukrainian. I think the peace deal is not good for Xi. Lower the risk for china to attack taiwan as Russia will be on the US side and will be free to take advantage of it when Chinese military is moved south.

 

[Ghost]

Pause of Ukraine aid.  

 

Is that another signal that Mr. Trump wants to dump the G7 and join BRICS?

 

Why not?  As other posters have mentioned BRICS is growing, they control a bigger portion of World GDP and the BRICS contain over half the worlds population.

Time to dump the losers and move with the winners?  

 

Divorce can be painful. 

[Spekulatius]

If Trump really wants out of the international arena why is he involved in a peace deal in Ukraine that nobody but Russia wants (because he sides with them), makes a move on Greenland and plans to create a Las Vegas Trump resort in Gaza? This doesn’t look like a focus on domestic policies to me.

 

The thing is that Trump doesn’t want out, he can’t stand not being in the center of attention and thinks that everyone has to dance to his fiddle even if he stops putting anything in.

In the meantime he is moving towards to make America an old fashioned 19th century Imperialist power which will manifest itself likely in a move on Greenland next. It would not be too surprised if little green men show up there and they won’t be from Russia.

[Parsad]

3 hours ago, Gregmal said:

Do we really need to question whom has an incentive to keep the war going? It couldn't possibly be the guy who's now spent the past few years jet setting around like a celebrity, from Hollywood to DC, you name it, hanging out with celebrities and world leaders, taking in billions in unaudited cash, could it? He's on numerous occasions refused to work towards a resolution. Instead he just keeps demanding more money and more weapons and now that there's finally strings attached he throws a fit? 

 

Wait, you're questioning the integrity of a guy fighting to keep his country and himself alive, while the biggest huckster in U.S. history lives and rules the White House?  And all of his minion hucksters are sucking at his teets as he sows chaos around the world.  This reminds me of the Omen III, when Damien became President.  Trump isn't Jesus, he's the devil incarnate! 

 

Maybe the Christian right will get to witness The Rapture...only they'll be on the wrong side of it!  Cheers!

[Mephistopheles]

Those blaming Ukraine for the war, and for not having a ceasefire is the equivalent of those who blame Israel for 10/7 and not having a ceasefire.

 

Should the US support Ukraine? Israel? Taiwan? South Korea? I’m inclined to believe that there are benefits to being the world’s most powerful military and offering a security umbrella.

[Xerxes]

The left wants a cease fire in Gaza. But a continuation of war in Ukraine no matter what. 
 

The right wants destruction of Gaza and revenge, but ceasefire in Ukraine with Russia. 
 

 

Both sides believe they are in the right. Go figure. 

[Mephistopheles]

5 minutes ago, Xerxes said:

The left wants a cease fire in Gaza. But a continuation of war in Ukraine no matter what. 
 

The right wants destruction of Gaza and revenge, but ceasefire in Ukraine with Russia. 
 

 

Both sides believe they are in the right. Go figure. 

I think Ukraine war supporters want the war to go on until Ukraine gets their territory back.

 

Just the victim blaming on both sides is interesting to me. 

[Xerxes]

 

[Sweet]

7 hours ago, Gregmal said:

Classic textbook response. Disagree? Putins puppet. Misinformation. No offense taken, it’s the standard response. 
 

Zalensky has done all the things I listed. Like how embarrassing is this?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/film/2023/mar/09/oscars-volodymyr-zelenskiy-appearance-turned-down

 

He’s lobbying constantly for celebrity status and attention. Who TF, let alone someone supposedly in a war, has time to audition for the Oscars people? Attend TV and movie award shows? Hire talent agents to book appearances? Lmfao 

 

And yours is a classic text book butt-hurt response Greg.

 

You are in fact regurgitating Russian talking points and your feet stamping doesn’t change that.

 

Yesterday your referred to Ukraine as sliver of ‘old-Russia’.  You effectively said Zelenskyy doesn’t want peace because he liked to be famous lol.

 

You know who else says these things?  Russia.

 

When forming an opinion it’s our job to figure out what is propaganda and what’s not and you seem unable to do that.

 

 

[Sweet]

7 hours ago, Xerxes said:

As far as optics goes, that sounds like a man who wants to keep fighting. 
 

Putin is winning the war of optics just by keeping his mouth shut. 

Is he winning the optics war?

 

Maybe with particular, and important audience, the MAGA crowd.

 

Outside that, in the rest of the world, I don’t see any change.  In fact I see the opposite.

 

Zelenskyy is trying to get some kind of security guarantee with peace, if we were in his shoes we would probably want the same.

 

[Sweet]

7 hours ago, Gregmal said:

I mean even if one knew absolutely nothing, say you take a 5 year old….they could look at a map and see Russia and Ukraine and a conflict is certainly within the realm of possibility. Lots of reasons a lot of things could happen.
 

So once again we apply the same situation, looking at a map, and one is again left with wondering, WTF does the US have to do with this, and why is it involved? And any bit of history will inform one that since the Cold War, the US has basically done everything it can to provoke and weaken Russia. And then go back and tell their citizens they’re promoting democracy and anything to the contrary is evil dictator Putins misinformation. 

I mean, that’s fair.  America cannot be the world’s policeman.  And I’ve said repeatedly in this thread that fundamentally this is Europe’s problem and Europe’s failure and they have taken American money and friendship for granted.

 

Where I have a slight disagreement with you is that you don’t seem to believe Western values are worth promoting or defending.  You obviously benefit from these values by living in the US but you don’t seem to have much empathy for those who also want to live like you.  If I am wrong correct me.

[Sweet]

4 hours ago, Mephistopheles said:

I think Ukraine war supporters want the war to go on until Ukraine gets their territory back.

Maybe some do but I think that is unlikely.

 

When the counteroffensive last year amounted to nothing the war was pretty much stalemated.
 

My reading, which could be wrong, is that really the only thing Ukraine wants is some kind of guarantee that if they sign a peace deal that it won’t be broken.

 

I think they’d eat every other compromise.

[skanjete]

9 hours ago, Sweet said:

There was never an agreement not to expand NATO east, or that there would be no NATO enlargement.  There may have been a few words exchanged but an ‘agreement’ to that effect never existed.

 

In 2013 Ukraine was on the cusp of signing a trade association with the EU but the president at the last minute decided not to under pressure from Russia.  Greg said if you don’t meddle you don’t get wars - well Russia was meddling.  The civil unrest that followed threw the president out and the new parliament passed trade association law.

 

Ukraine was NOT about the join NATO.  The country wanted to join NATO but there was no membership talks ans NATO countries were divided as to whether Ukraine should join NATO.

 

With respect to the supposed peace agreement between Ukraine and Russia, nobody really knows how close it was to being signed.  Ukraine presented an agreement to Russia which Russia rejected.  Russia presented an agreement to Ukraine which it rejected.  Both sides walked away, not just Ukraine.

 

 

 

It's just a fact that the US made NATO expand up to the borders of Russia. 

 

Compare Russia's reaction in this to that of the USA when the USSR wanted to install missiles on Cuba in 1962. 

The world never came closer to nuclear extinction than during that crisis.

[skanjete]

The position of Ukraine and Zelensky is completely logical and rational. Trump fully follows Putin’s line: Ukraine must cede the Russian-speaking territories and become fully neutral.

This means no EU or NATO membership and demilitarization (a military limited to a maximum of 85,000 troops, missiles with a maximum range of 40 km, etc.).

 

So, if no security guarantees are attached to this, Ukraine would be completely defenseless in the future, entirely at the mercy of Russia’s goodwill. Trump wants a quick peace, he wants Ukraine’s minerals, but he refuses to provide any security guarantees to Ukraine.

 

During the argument in the White House, this was clearly the key issue. If you listen carefully, you’ll hear that Zelensky is demanding nothing but security guarantees—something Trump and Vance are unwilling to grant him.

 

If Zelensky were to accept the deal Trump is putting on the table, he would be utterly naive.

Who would willingly give up all their leverage without any guarantees? For Ukraine, this would be nothing less than total and unconditional surrender. Given the situation on the battlefield and Ukraine’s position in Europe, it seems that Zelensky and Ukraine still have other options besides complete and unconditional capitulation... so his response is not driven by a lust for war or territorial demands, but is his only option at the moment...

 

I really don't envy that man's position !

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, skanjete said:

 

It's just a fact that the US made NATO expand up to the borders of Russia. 

 

Compare Russia's reaction in this to that of the USA when the USSR wanted to install missiles on Cuba in 1962. 

The world never came closer to nuclear extinction than during that crisis.

 

Yeh, I agree there is a comparison there, and I understand the Russians are pissed.  It is a fact that NATO has expanded to Russian borders, but it also bordered the Soviet Union too. 

 

I would disagree that US 'made' NATO expand.  That's not really how it works, countries apply to NATO, and then NATO votes on whether that country should join and that vote needs to be unanimous I believe.

 

The US can nudge countries yeh, but I don't recall that it has ever forced anyone to sign up.

 

Edited Tuesday at 12:00 PM by Sweet

[Sweet]

45 minutes ago, skanjete said:

The position of Ukraine and Zelensky is completely logical and rational. Trump fully follows Putin’s line: Ukraine must cede the Russian-speaking territories and become fully neutral.

This means no EU or NATO membership and demilitarization (a military limited to a maximum of 85,000 troops, missiles with a maximum range of 40 km, etc.).

 

So, if no security guarantees are attached to this, Ukraine would be completely defenseless in the future, entirely at the mercy of Russia’s goodwill. Trump wants a quick peace, he wants Ukraine’s minerals, but he refuses to provide any security guarantees to Ukraine.

 

During the argument in the White House, this was clearly the key issue. If you listen carefully, you’ll hear that Zelensky is demanding nothing but security guarantees—something Trump and Vance are unwilling to grant him.

 

If Zelensky were to accept the deal Trump is putting on the table, he would be utterly naive.

Who would willingly give up all their leverage without any guarantees? For Ukraine, this would be nothing less than total and unconditional surrender. Given the situation on the battlefield and Ukraine’s position in Europe, it seems that Zelensky and Ukraine still have other options besides complete and unconditional capitulation... so his response is not driven by a lust for war or territorial demands, but is his only option at the moment...

 

I really don't envy that man's position !

 

Exactly.  Zelenskyy is in a terrible spot, it was terrible even before Trump.  But apparently he just wants to be famous and keep the war going lol.

[cubsfan]

Good news, first step in dealing with a problem is to own it:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-04/eu-proposes-150-billion-in-loans-for-pan-european-defense?srnd=homepage-americas

[formthirteen]

 

https://x.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1896377255200178305/

[John Hjorth]

19 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

Good news, first step in dealing with a problem is to own it:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2025-03-04/eu-proposes-150-billion-in-loans-for-pan-european-defense?srnd=homepage-americas

 

Yes, Mike [ @cubsfan ],

 

Now we're starting to get somewhere. It's actually much more than EUR 150 billion now, it's in total EUR 800 billion over four years, that figure for Europe, so not for Ukraine alone.

 

The Guardian [March 4^th 2025] : EU chief unveils €800bn plan to ‘rearm’ Europe.

 

No primary source available on the European Union website yet, though.

[John Hjorth]

YouTube - Anders Puck Nielsen [March 1^st 2024] : Trump humiliates Zelensky to save his doomed peace process.

 

 

I'm seeing it the same way. And I personally also think it's naive to talk or think about a sustainable peace solution by now.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Seak and search Wikipedia for 'Russian Invasion', and Wikipedia replies to you : 'What do you mean?, and as a service, here are my suggestions for what might be on your mind :' :

 

 

Edited Tuesday at 01:35 PM by John Hjorth

[Gregmal]

27 minutes ago, formthirteen said:

 

https://x.com/TheStudyofWar/status/1896377255200178305/

Good lord this entire thing reads desperate Western propaganda. The hallmark is always the intimate knowledge or declaration of exactly what someone else is thinking. We already saw(concretely) whom had a vested effort in undermining the deal. 

[Sweet]

9 hours ago, Xerxes said:

 

This was much better than I expected.

 

But this was not the JD Vance in the Oval Office who lost his cool.