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A company I own got bought out, but I can't cash out.


Spekulatius
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I am currently encountering a situation that I have never ran in before.

 

I own some shares in obscure french company BCAM.PA which trades on Euronext in France. This is an brewery domiciled in Cameroon, but the shares traded in Paris (or at least used to. These shares are held in an Interactive Brokers account (Roth IRA).

 

In January, trading in this stock was halted for good and a buyout offer was announced for 128.5Euro (see below)

https://live.euronext.com/en/product/equities/CM0000035113-XPAR#standardRightCompanyPressRelease

 

I contacted IB on this matter and they told me that they were aware of the tender off and would get back to me, but they never did. After contacting them again, they told me that they do not support this corporate action because of MFIR and MDIR II (I looked it up, it concerns trading in OTC markets) and I would need to transfer my shares to a different broker to get the shares tendered.

 

The document above details that I can tender my shares for 128.5 Euro in cash until June 3rd. Unfortunately it appears to me that there is no automatic squeeze out and if I do not tender my shares, I keep them either in  register kept by the mother company SABC or in a Cameroon brokerage account  :o. Now the technicalities of having these in a Roth IRA probably wont help and I don't really want to have a brokerage account in Cameroon either.

 

Now the question is what to do? I will contact IB agains, but knowing how they work, I am pretty sure they tell me just to shove it. Now, is there probably a way to transfer these shares or the entire account somewhere else who can deal with this? Not too many brokerages deal with shares trading in foreign exchanges.  Is what IB is doing actually legal -letting your trade in a secondary market and then not support fundamental corporate actions there? I never ran into this problem before in more than 30 years of investing.

 

 

text from the buyout offer:

At the end of the Cancellation, which will take place following the closing of the Offer:

 

the holding of SABC shares by a shareholder will be organized according to the applicable Cameroonian regulations, that is to say by the recording of SABC shares in a securities account opened in the name of their owner and kept either by SABC, or by a custody account approved by the Central African Financial Market Supervisory Commission (COSUMAF). SABC will propose to shareholders who have not contributed their shares to the Offer (and who have not decided to sell them within the following three-month period provided for by the Euronext Rules) to register them in the registers of SABC which will be held by it in accordance with Cameroonian law;

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Sheesh, ya this is the shit thats been scaring me with a lot of the brokers. They just dont touch anything that is even mildly at risk of being a potential problem for them.

 

It may not work, but it might be worth contacting IB and requesting that they mail you the physical certificate. Then you can contact the company or its transfer agent and tender your shares via physical certificate and then overnight the certs with obvious tracking and insurance.

 

Otherwise... you're probably in a tough spot.

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Either DIY it as Greg said or try to find brokers who WOULD be willing to tender the shares on your behalf. Open an account with them, transfer the shares over and proceed with the tender.

 

How to find such a broker is the difficult part. If you know of other shareholders you can start there; you can also look into Camaroon brokers and try to find one that also operates in your country or is affiliated somehow with a local broker; it may be easier for them to process all the red tape if it's a related/affiliated company.

 

Good luck

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So far I have asked IB to reconsider (which I don’t think they are going to do, based on prior experience ) and contacted the company SABC (since the shares would go into company register by default) about what I might do (explaining my situation).

 

I don’t want to get involved with Cameroon brokers and at this point the shares are still Euronext/french shares anyways. I might do Greg’s DIY route - I think it might be possible to transfer the shares into SABC (mother companies) registrar and get them liquidated for cash there.

 

Then I still have to deal with the nightmare that this is a distribution from a Roth IRA. Maybe I argue that the shares are worthless  ;)?

 

If anyone knows a broker that may deal with these foreign share corporate actions let me know.

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Christ that sucks, Spekulatius,

 

As you may be aware of, I own shares in a few French companies, too. This week is winter vacation week in Denmark, so all IRL stuff that I have as work in progress is pretty much standing still right now.

 

I'll try to make some calls for you, to both my primary broker and my secondary broker. The shares in my largest French position [MC.PA] is at my primary broker, the rest is at my secondary broker. I'll call them both.

 

It's my experience, that you get better outcomes by dealing with something like this by using the phone than trying to write page up-page down in an e-mail. And it's much easier [read : free] to handle by phone on this side of the Atlantic Ocean related to a French stock [ref. the Forward Pharma A/S situation some time ago].

 

I've been in some weird situations with stocks and corporate actions at my primary broker a few times, too, and I've never been let down on anything.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

To simplify things just a bit, would it be an idea to get the shares "traded out" of the Roth IRA into a taxable account ["substituted" by cash from one of your taxable accounts]? -I mean, you have an "objective"/visible value of the shares [from the tender]. [internal records/transactions at IB.]

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Christ that sucks, Spekulatius,

 

As you may be aware of, I own shares in a few French companies, too. This week is winter vacation week in Denmark, so all IRL stuff that I have as work in progress is pretty much standing still right now.

 

I'll try to make some calls for you, to both my primary broker and my secondary broker. The shares in my largest French position [MC.PA] is at my primary broker, the rest is at my secondary broker. I'll call them both.

 

It's my experience, that you get better outcomes by dealing with something like this by using the phone than trying to write page up-page down in an e-mail. And it's much easier [read : free] to handle by phone on this side of the Atlantic Ocean related to a French stock [ref. the Forward Pharma A/S situation some time ago].

 

I've been in some weird situations with stocks and corporate actions at my primary broker a few times, too, and I've never been let down on anything.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

To simplify things just a bit, would it be an idea to get the shares "traded out" of the Roth IRA into a taxable account ["substituted" by cash from one of your taxable accounts]? -I mean, you have an "objective"/visible value of the shares [from the tender]. [internal records/transactions at IB.]

 

John, thank you for offering your help, but I don’t think there is much you can do, as my situation is unique (as an US investor holding now stranded shares). This wouldn’t be an issue as a French investor for sure, as the whole process was designed to get rid of minority investors to begin with.  I will have to come up with the right way to address the issue, before finding out who to pester on the phone.

 

As far as trading is concerned, well the shares stopped trading on 1/16 when notice was issued on Euronext all of a sudden, then the tender was announced on 1/21.  Since the trading stop, the shares have never traded and my understanding is that they will never trade again. Again, that is pretty unique as in most cases I have been involved in, shares still kept on trading for a while, which allowed participants to sell their shares and avoid going through the corporate action procedure. In this case, there was no way to do just that.

 

My own sense is that the mother company SABC wants to get rid of minority investors and will give me a path to do just that. perhaps transfer shares to their company register and then liquidate or something like that. I think there is a way to transfer shares out from my IB account although I have never done that either.

It not a large position (70 shares ~ 9000€) and I actually thought that this strange stock would be bought out eventually, just didn’t think it would end up where I can’t exercise my right to cash in easily.

 

I will keep posting how this saga develops.

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Sorry to hear about your experience Spekulatius. I had a similar issue with a Mangolian mining corp bond that got restructured and after the restructuring, IB stops support for trading. It took me a lot of time to find out that TD AM supports it and I had to transfer the bonds over. It was happy ending but it was really scary at the time.

I wonder if you checked Fidelity? They usually have great foreign stock support, in addition to IB. I think there is a very good chance that Fidelity can do it.

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I wonder if the 60 day rollover rule could apply.

What do you mean by "60 day rollover rule"?

 

You can remove funds from your Roth IRA without penalty, if you put them back in after 60 day or less; at least that’s  my understanding.

 

Yes that's right but I am not sure whether it is required to be the exact same security which is returned. I.e. if tendering shares worth $100 and replacing with cash of $100 is considered a distribution or not. Also note you can only do this once annually.

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Do you have a Fidelity account? I can't open an account there but I heard they're a decent option for Americans wanting to trade foreign stocks. You've got some time left. Maybe it's a long shot but you could open an account and try to find out if they see the same regulatory problems .. Something like that would be by far the easiest solution.

 

Alternatively, it seems that BNP Paribas is the transfer agent, you could try to get IB to get BNP to transfer the shares to your own name and then contact Gilbert Dupont (the buying brokerage firm)  to sell your shares - or you could, after the tender offer expires, try to get IB to sell the shares to Gilbert Dupont (maybe tendering is not allowed but a direct sale is .. ) I would try to contact Gilbert Dupont in any case (from the prospectus: Gilbert Dupont, whose head office is located 50, rue d'Anjou, 75008 Paris), maybe they know what you should do. This whole route does not seem like it would be a fun experience though - how is your French?

 

In short, I would contact Fidelity and other brokers to see if they can faclitate something and at the same time, harass IB, SABC and Gilbert Dupont relentlessly with e-mails and phone calls. Try to get them to contact each other and try to get contact details from somebody relevant at BNP.

 

I'd be very careful with converting your shares to physical certificates. Once you are out of the institutional system I am afraid things will only get more difficult and you will be completely out of the loop. I'd probably rather just hold on to my shares at IB and see what happens. Situations like this "feel" extremely dangerous but we don't live in South Park (*poof* aaand it's gone). At some point down the road there will probably be an opportunity to monetize your position because in the end nobody is interested in having an American with a few shares on the registry in Cameroon; the buyers want you to sell your shares. Especially if it's a small position I'd be tempted to just hold out .. I'd say eventually somebody at some back-office will run into insurmountable problems and escalate and especially if you've been spamming everybody down the chain relentlessly they will probably get back to you with an offer to make a wire transfer or they will resume trading on Euronext or IB changes their mind when they are faced with some Cameroonian forms they have to complete or whatever.

 

I have been in some similar hairy situations (liquidating distributions from a delisted Dubai company, tax issues with a Kazachstan GDR delisting) and my experience is that while it feels terrible dangerous thing usually work out. The relentless harassment is important though, corporate bureaucracy is your most dangerous enemy.

 

Important disclaimer: this is just like, my opinion. Also, about the consequences of shares being in an IRA account I have absolutely no clue.

 

An interesting adventure ..

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I think switching to a different broker will not solve your problems.

 

Tender offers made outside the US are very often explicitly not made to residents of the US because small companies can't afford to comply with US regulations (Canada, Japan, Australia are other countries I often see explicitly excluded). I took a look at this tender offer, and while it doesn't explicitly exclude US residents it states that it is made only in France, from google translate:

 

This Project Information Memorandum is not intended to be broadcast in a country other than France.

 

The Offer has been nor will be registered or approved outside of France. Holders of shares outside of France can not

participate in the Offer unless local law to which they are subject permits. Indeed, the distribution of this document, the Offer,

the acceptance of the offer and delivery of the shares may be subject to specific regulations or restrictions in certain

countries.

Odds that any broker is willing to submit your shares and that the company is willing to purchase your shares: 0.0001% (okay, that might be a bit too pessimistic)

 

Besides that, writser is making some good points.

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Yes, you are probably correct with regards to the tender offer. I'm not a US resident so these restrictions do usually not apply to me. Forgot about that. Still it might be worth a try to see if Fido can help.

 

Also, reading back my previous post I think my advice could be seen as slightly conflicting with what Gregmal was saying. Just to clarify, Gregmal is an esteemed forum member and by no means should you discard his knowledge. Greg has been treated horribly on this forum in the past (me being one of the instigators of that) and going forward one should treat his posts with the care and respect they deserve. Greg, if you want me to rephrase or change my advice because I have offended you in the slightest, please let me know. Everybody should be able to give his or her or hir (if you are transgender) opinion without fear of repercussions.

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Do you have a Fidelity account? I can't open an account there but I heard they're a decent option for Americans wanting to trade foreign stocks. You've got some time left. Maybe it's a long shot but you could open an account and try to find out if they see the same regulatory problems .. Something like that would be by far the easiest solution.

 

Alternatively, it seems that BNP Paribas is the transfer agent, you could try to get IB to get BNP to transfer the shares to your own name and then contact Gilbert Dupont (the buying brokerage firm)  to sell your shares - or you could, after the tender offer expires, try to get IB to sell the shares to Gilbert Dupont (maybe tendering is not allowed but a direct sale is .. ) I would try to contact Gilbert Dupont in any case (from the prospectus: Gilbert Dupont, whose head office is located 50, rue d'Anjou, 75008 Paris), maybe they know what you should do. This whole route does not seem like it would be a fun experience though - how is your French?

 

In short, I would contact Fidelity and other brokers to see if they can faclitate something and at the same time, harass IB, SABC and Gilbert Dupont relentlessly with e-mails and phone calls. Try to get them to contact each other and try to get contact details from somebody relevant at BNP.

 

I'd be very careful with converting your shares to physical certificates. Once you are out of the institutional system I am afraid things will only get more difficult and you will be completely out of the loop. I'd probably rather just hold on to my shares at IB and see what happens. Situations like this "feel" extremely dangerous but we don't live in South Park (*poof* aaand it's gone). At some point down the road there will probably be an opportunity to monetize your position because in the end nobody is interested in having an American with a few shares on the registry in Cameroon; the buyers want you to sell your shares. Especially if it's a small position I'd be tempted to just hold out .. I'd say eventually somebody at some back-office will run into insurmountable problems and escalate and especially if you've been spamming everybody down the chain relentlessly they will probably get back to you with an offer to make a wire transfer or they will resume trading on Euronext or IB changes their mind when they are faced with some Cameroonian forms they have to complete or whatever.

 

I have been in some similar hairy situations (liquidating distributions from a delisted Dubai company, tax issues with a Kazachstan GDR delisting) and my experience is that while it feels terrible dangerous thing usually work out. The relentless harassment is important though, corporate bureaucracy is your most dangerous enemy.

 

Important disclaimer: this is just like, my opinion. Also, about the consequences of shares being in an IRA account I have absolutely no clue.

 

An interesting adventure ..

 

Thanks for your suggestions. So far, I have contacted SABC and actually received a response overnight (redacted threatens for privacy):

 

Dear Investor,

We acknowledge reception of your email below by which you want to tender your shares in response to the SABC takeover offer at Euronext Paris.

Mrs Eva XXXX XXXX, our head of Legal department will provide you more details.

Regards.

 

I have also reopened the ticket with IB and might escalate. I had some luck before elevating matters before (in one case right to a CEO who delegated it down, butt still got the job done). I have been with IB for years (15?) and don’t want to leave. They suit me well generally, but when they suck they suck bollocks,

 

I also appreciate the suggestion to go to Fidelity. I have already considerable accounts with them (recently moved a Wells Fargo account there too) and they have an office close to where I live.

 

My French is pretty rusty and sucks, but I would probably get by with written communication and google translate.

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My French is pretty rusty and sucks, but I would probably get by with written communication and google translate.

Calling a French broker would be very awkward indeed and I would also desparately try e-mail first. But in my experience, if you really want to get things done, calling is simply more effective (basically in every situation).

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I'd say that what you should do depends on how much you have invested and if it's worth the hassle.

 

This is not a brokerage problem, it's a custody problem. IB would not be doing the corporate action for you, IB's custodian would be doing it, which I think it's city. Moreover since this is in France it wold probably be done by Citi's office in the UK or Luxembourg.

 

What you need to do if figure out where do these securities clear. If they are traded on Euronext you may be in luck and it's Euroclear. Then what you need to do is get the shares into a custody account at a custodian that's active on Euroclear and they will do the CA for you. If the shares do clear on Euroclear I'd say the reason why IB doesn't want to do the CA is because you may be the only one on the platform owning this and they don't want to pay citi for the CA.

 

However, this is just where you problems start.

 

1. Custodians don't really deal with retail investors unless your talking REAL money. They certainly won't open an account to do a CA for a shitty Cameroon stock. There's no way they would open a custody account for a Roth IRA. Even if they would be willing to do it, the fees would be huge.

 

2. Find a broker that has a custodian that clears on where this stock clears. Even if one of these brokers would have you as a client the problem is the the stock is in Roth IRA. The broker will probably be in Europe and would have no way to do an in kind transfer between a Roth IRA and an account at their firm.

 

Some possible good news. I noticed that now Euroclear does open accounts for retail investors. Problem is I don't know how much it costs and you must be a resident of Europe. It's a long shot but maybe you can work the German thing in there.

 

Another thing, any US broker to which you can transfer the position in kind has a custodian that can do the corporate action for you. If you can find one that's probably your best bet. But my guess is that they won't want to do it.

 

You basically have a complicated situation that's made worse because of the IRA.

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Geez, writser. You must have been really, really bothered. I am so sorry! It s funny how some react when the shoe is on the other foot. I thought for sure you were all better when Viking escaped a performance audit in the "Stocks for 15-20 year hold" thread after claiming to time the market and generate decent returns! But then a day later you're still rearranging your signature and going on long sarcastic rants. My goodness, take a deep breathe. Everything will be ok. Hang in there bud. The first 24 hours are always the toughest.

 

Spek,

 

With regard to Fidelity or another broker, that will be tough. The issue relates(probably) to reporting issues and FINRA crap. If the position is not big board traded, it would be hard to find someone that would take it. Maybe an Axos correspondent? Although if they do accept it you'll probably have to fill out a foreign/OTC securities report. Annoying and time consuming. Fidelity a few months ago would not ACAT in LAACZ or HTLZF when I had asked(although oddly you could buy/sell both in an existing Fidelity account). Which also leads me to suggest finding/asking for your initial purchase trade confirmations. Those may come in handy because these sort of issues stem almost entirely from the firms compliance department and WSPs and are designed to avoid issues with AML and OTC reporting. I'd probably do that for any OTC you own because Ive heard some firms are starting to require proof of original purchase to liquidate them. RBC even now requires it for positions you purchased with them!

 

I also think you've at least got a solid lead in the company's head of legal and if I had to wager, thats probably were your time will be best spent. 

 

 

 

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Ultimately it is SABC that wants your shares.

Hence it is highly likely that they will work with their custodian/transfer agent to create a TRANSACTION SPECIFIC Euroclear facility.

IB in turn, simply tendering the shares into the facility, as they would for any other share on Euroclear.

 

However, the price will remain fixed, and the shares will be unencumbered.

No market trading, no derivatives, no loans, etc.

 

SD

 

 

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I just hung up the phone on a conversation with my primary broker. I ended up in contact with a guy at the trading desk in Stockholm. He was very patient with me, listening to me through my lengthy explanation of the situation.

 

His suggestion how to approach the situation was very much - if not fully - identical to the latest suggestions here in this topic from rb and Greg, while he also mentioned the alternative originally posted in this topic by Greg to ask for the share certificates combined with the DIY method for the rest of the process.

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rb, I'm not an expert on backoffice stuff but I think you are incorrect. The clearer is not relevant here. All trades on Euronext France settle through LCH Clearnet (https://www.euronext.com/nl/node/779). IB is a member of LCH Clearnet. All brokers directing orders to Euronext Paris are members of LCH Clearnet. That is the whole point of a central clearing party. But the custodian handles the corporate action, not the clearer. For example, if you receive a dividend, the transfer agent / share registrar of the company will make sure the custodian (and all other holders on the register) gets a cheque or wire. The custodian will then distribute the money to their clients. The clearer has nothing to do with this. And with a corporate action, your broker will send instructions to the custodian. The custodian bundles these instructions and sends them to the transfer agent, who will then execute the corporate action in conjuction with the company, update the share registry and subsequently inform the custodian of the changes and/or wires cash to the custodian. Also in this case the clearer is completely sidestepped. The only function of the clearing house is to eliminate counterparty risk when buying / selling and to consolidate multiple transactions.

 

As Hielko pointed out, the problem here is (probably!) that this corporate action is not available for US entities, due to security laws. The custodian knows your nationality because they need that to, for example, determine correct withholding taxes (and for corporate actions such as this one). Moving your shares to a different custodian will (again, probably!) not solve the problem as the transfer agent still sees that he has to deal with a US shareholder who is ineligible to participate in the offer. If this is the case, and I think it is the case, (but to make sure you could contact Fidelity or another broker to see if they can tender your shares) your best bet would be to contact the buying broker (Gilbert Dupont) to see if they can buy your shares outside of the tender offer in a private transaction. I translated the prospectus using Google and that seems to be a possibility, which is why I suggested you contact them.

 

Then, the final question is how Gilbert Dupont is going to buy your shares. Will Euronext cancel the trading halt and can you sell on-exchange? Can Gilbert buy through an OTC transaction on Euronext (which, to be fair, would settle through LCH Clearnet) that the IB trading desk can facilitate? Or can you transfer your shares from IB to Gilbert's account with a FOP transfer? Or would you have to register shares in your own name and get the transfer agent to pick up your position? These are questions outside the scope of my knowledge and IB and Gilbert Dupont should figure that out between themselves. It's probably going to be annoying to orchestrate this as a retail shareholder. But if you request a physical certificate you immediately forego most of these possibilities. Opening your own custodian account would probably be an enormous hassle in Europe and would also limit your options. On top of that, you would be trying the exact same thing from that custodian account that your broker could do for you, without any back-office experience whatsoever. I would never consider that unless explicitly requested. Have you ever tried to reach out to a custodian? They will do their utmost, utmost best to avoid having anything to do with retail clients. "Hi, I'm Spekulatius, can you help me with completing these complicated forms so I can participate in a corporate action in Cameroon that probably conflicts with US security laws? Maybe we can lie about my nationality? And can you deposit the money in my Paypal account afterwards? Thanks."

 

Finally, my guess is that if you do nothing, at some point somebody at the custodian will panic because they still have these shares and they do not immediately want to transfer them to a registrar in Cameroon, because nobody has done that before and nobody wants to hang on the phone with Cameroon for a few hours to discuss your case with somebody who probably knows more about brewing beer than shareholder registries. At that point the custodian might contact IB. Or the custodian might contact the transfer agent, who might contact SABC. If you have harrassed all parties down the chain relentlessly I would guess the ball starts rolling at that point. Of course that is a bit speculative and who knows, your shares might end up on the registry in Cameroon. Even if so, at that point I'd be willing that SABC would remove you from the registry and send you a wire, if you harass them long enough. It would be good to clarify that with SABC legal because it would mean you have a backup plan (or a main plan :P).

 

Then again, I (fortunately!) didn't work in back-office so I could be wrong about some of these things. In fact, I might be completely wrong in which case I'd gladly hear so. It's a mysterious world behind your trading interface. One I prefer to avoid as much as possible.

 

And, as I said before, I have no clue about IRA's so I don't know how the above would affect your tax status, or would affect whatever else that is relevant for IRA's.

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Interesting dilemma!

 

My suggestion would be to pull the stock out of the IRA into a certificate, or just a normal brokerage.  Replace it with cash to satisfy the US Gov.  From there you have some room to work.

 

Next step is to sell directly to the French broker.  Brokers do negotiated transactions all the time.  You might take a bit of a haircut, but so what.  They will be buying the shares from you, then just tendering directly on their own account.  For them it's an easy way to make a spread.

 

You can try to work with them directly, or work with a desk in the US who has relationships.  I have talked to Fidelity traders in the past who phoned up brokers in Switzerland while I was on the phone to make trades.  I know you don't want to go with Fidelity, but you need a more full service broker who can a) speak french and b) has those connections.  I don't think you can have an IB trader make trades over the phone.  They aren't built for that.

 

If you're able to get certificates (which is highly unlikely) then you can negotiate directly with the company.  Although I think you'll have more success working with the clearing broker.

 

I'd go all out nuclear on this one.  Look up employees who work in the back office at Gilbert Dupont and start to contact them directly.  Say you have this problem and you need help, who do you talk to?  People will help you out and get you directed to someone who can get this done.  You just have to be persistent and ask everyone.  I think the full service broker in the US is probably your best bet, but there is a price.  Might be a few hundred euro to transact and tender, but that's a lot cheaper than spending months trying to get someone deep in a cube farm to handle the situation as a one-off.

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You can try to work with them directly, or work with a desk in the US who has relationships.  I have talked to Fidelity traders in the past who phoned up brokers in Switzerland while I was on the phone to make trades.  I know you don't want to go with Fidelity, but you need a more full service broker who can a) speak french and b) has those connections.  I don't think you can have an IB trader make trades over the phone.  They aren't built for that.

 

Yes, good suggestion. If you have the shares at Fido you could get them to call Gilbert. Some of the solutions I outlined are probably easier there (I guess, it being a full-service broker) than at IB (though IB also has a trading desk).

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