cubsfan Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 How can the opposition be blamed when they aren't in power? It's the governing people's responsibility to govern. If Cuomo screws up in New York, he should be blamed. Regardless of your politics you have to support Truman's adage "The Buck Stops Here". That's the job of the president regardless of party. The opposition party can certainly be blamed for doing nothing for 3 years - nothing - not governing but destroying the government. Are the states with the largest CV problem (NY, CA, IL, WA) to be blamed because they are run by Democrats? Of course not - it's Trump's fault!
ERICOPOLY Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 sanity, from of all people tom friedman, relying on Dr. Katz of Yale. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html horizontal shutdown is stupid. vertical shutdown of those at most risk is the obvious strategy For as much as Trump hates the NYTimes, this is basically what he was advocating yesterday. One thing they mentioned during yesterday's press conference was gradually bringing people back to work by age category. First the under 40s, then the under 60s, and all the while protecting the over 70s. People seem to misunderstand that even if you don't die from this virus, it can get quite bad, and even healthy young adults (not that Americans are that healthy on average) that won't die can end up in the hospital taking space from people that would otherwise be saved, or have permanent damage from the virus (lungs, heart), or they can unknowingly infect people in their social circles/family units that are more at risk of death, or even just that they in turn end up taking even more medical resources when there's few to spare, etc. This is still exponential. We need the R0 to be under 1, ideally way under. Not keep it above 1 until hundreds of thousands are dying and millions have been extremely sick and a large unknown number has died from preventable causes because the healthcare system was destroyed, and how long to rebuild a destroyed healthcare system? You re-open for containment AFTER you have majorly suppressed it, like in SK or China. You don't put an arbitrary deadline on it one week into it without any data on whether the current half-assed measures worked or what the hospital situation will be then. That's BONKERS. I'll keep reposting it because more people need to read it, but this is the way to do it with the least pain, the least economic damage: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56 Easter isn't an arbitrary deadline: if a resurrection happened before and it can happen again. I can totally understand the thinking in hitting that date.
Liberty Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 How can the opposition be blamed when they aren't in power? It's the governing people's responsibility to govern. If Cuomo screws up in New York, he should be blamed. Regardless of your politics you have to support Truman's adage "The Buck Stops Here". That's the job of the president regardless of party. The opposition party can certainly be blamed for doing nothing for 3 years - nothing - not governing but destroying the government. Are the states with the largest CV problem (NY, CA, IL, WA) to be blamed because they are run by Democrats? Of course not - it's Trump's fault! You understand that epidemics thrive on population density and international travel and that in the US the densest places that are the most diverse tend to vote for one party over another? Trump shuts down pandemic protection agencies, Trump calls the virus a hoax and no big deal for weeks (WEEKS in a daily exponential problem), Trump waits a long time to use the federal resources (corps of engineers, using private companies to build materials, etc), his supporters, clearly taking their cues from him, purposefully shake hands and attend rallies to "show there's no virus", yet here you are, trying to blame the party that's out of power.. Man, you sound totally delusional.
vinod1 Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 I gave Trump credit for 3 things he has done 1. Take China as a serious threat and go after their companies and defend long term US interests. 2. Relax overly aggressive regulation in many industries. 3. Highlight the issue of illegal immigration and how it might be impacting lower income US citizens. Even on Covid-19, I give him a lot of credit for how quickly he imposed restrictions on travelers from China. I bring up this up to highlight that I try to be objective. Look at his other actions: 1. Dismissing the virus as the Democrats "new hoax” 2. John Bolton’s decision to scrap the nsc’s dedicated pandemic unit 3. Where is an action plan to get companies to produce PPE, testing kits, etc? How many masks are being produced per day today? 4. The half hearted attempts at containing the spread. No decisive action at the Federal level. Trump maybe an advantage when dealing with say North Korea or even in a war situation - if the other guys thinks you are narcissist it might deter them from some things. If there is a super intelligent creature (God) who understands Trump and designs a test that preys on his weakness, I cannot think anything better than a pandemic from something like Covid-19. It cannot be bullied, immune to twitter attacks, he is unlikely to heed advice of experts and need to take actions that might be contrary to his own interests. I really hope and wish that he is supremely successful and luck favors him in containing the virus. But, I think it is looking increasingly likely that he is going to cause grievous harm to a lot of citizens with his approach. It would be a terrible price the country would be paying for electing someone like him. Vinod
LC Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 Please do not self medicate with aquarium cleaner: https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3 The president has repeatedly touted chloroquine as a "very powerful" treatment against the coronavirus and falsely claimed it was approved by the Food and Drug Administration. NBC News reported that the man, 68, and his wife, 61, took chloroquine to guard against the novel coronavirus, which causes a potentially fatal disease known as COVID-19. It's not clear how much chloroquine the man consumed, and Banner Health said he and his wife ingested a version of the chemical that's used to clean aquariums. Both of them needed to seek medical care within half an hour; the woman is in critical condition, and the man died.
ERICOPOLY Posted March 24, 2020 Posted March 24, 2020 How can the opposition be blamed when they aren't in power? It's the governing people's responsibility to govern. If Cuomo screws up in New York, he should be blamed. Regardless of your politics you have to support Truman's adage "The Buck Stops Here". That's the job of the president regardless of party. The opposition party can certainly be blamed for doing nothing for 3 years - nothing - not governing but destroying the government. Are the states with the largest CV problem (NY, CA, IL, WA) to be blamed because they are run by Democrats? Of course not - it's Trump's fault! You understand that epidemics thrive on population density and international travel and that in the US the densest places that are the most diverse tend to vote for one party over another? Trump shuts down pandemic protection agencies, Trump calls the virus a hoax and no big deal for weeks (WEEKS in a daily exponential problem), Trump waits a long time to use the federal resources (corps of engineers, using private companies to build materials, etc) yet here you are, trying to blame the party that's out of power.. Man, you sound totally delusional. He is defensive of the president, and is deflecting. You can't talk about Trump without him answering back with Biden or Pelosi. https://www.betterhelp.com/advice/psychologists/what-is-deflection-psychology-explains-this-defense-mechanism/ What Is Deflection? In general, deflection means that you're passing something over to someone else in an attempt to draw the attention away from yourself. When you were younger, you may have deflected the blame for a negative activity by pointing out a different negative activity your sibling did
Foreign Tuffett Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 People seem to misunderstand that even if you don't die from this virus, it can get quite bad, and even healthy young adults (not that Americans are that healthy on average) that won't die can end up in the hospital taking space from people that would otherwise be saved, or have permanent damage from the virus (lungs, heart), or they can unknowingly infect people in their social circles/family units that are more at risk of death, or even just that they in turn end up taking even more medical resources when there's few to spare, etc. This is still exponential. We need the R0 to be under 1, ideally way under. Not keep it above 1 until hundreds of thousands are dying and millions have been extremely sick and a large unknown number has died from preventable causes because the healthcare system was destroyed, and how long to rebuild a destroyed healthcare system? You re-open for containment AFTER you have majorly suppressed it, like in SK or China. You don't put an arbitrary deadline on it one week into it without any data on whether the current half-assed measures worked or what the hospital situation will be then. That's BONKERS. I'll keep reposting it because more people need to read it, but this is the way to do it with the least pain, the least economic damage: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56 Well put Liberty, and I couldn't agree more. The way to beat this thing is to make a national effort to stop the spread before the healthcare system is overwhelmed. Unfortunately, here in the US efforts to date have been reactive instead of proactive, with failures of leadership at every level.
Spekulatius Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 I'm saying there are people on this board with very safe jobs and homes, that can't wait for the President to make another mistake - so they can trash the shit out of him - while real suffering is going on. It's easy to say - Nope, President Trump - it's stupid to consider ending this lockdown, in some form or another. Who cares about the working man, when you have a job, and the economy is getting destroyed. The bill will have a lot of garbage in it regardless of who wrote it. In like the a German system better where the largest party write the bill together in committees and then do a formality vote. Germany pushed though their stimulus bill, we are in here for a period of public haggling before every party got their share of pork in order to vote on this. That public haggling is pretty much part of the process. TARP in late 2008 was just the same thing.
jjsto Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Didn’t see this posted yet. Bill Gates Ted talk from today.
cubsfan Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Yeah , right - the President slaps a travel ban on, daring to stop the influx of Chinese nationals - and the opposition party fights him all the way as a xenophobe. And the media eats it up, while defending China all the way. And of course, now, with the strictest social distancing, isolation policies and quarantining in our history - "The President blew it, according to you guys. A lot of the country looks really safe now BECAUSE of Trumps actions. All this, no thanks to the open border crowd that just loves China. Now the man is trying to find the right medium between destroying a multi-billion dollar economy and containment. But you guys have all the answers. You guys kill me!
cubsfan Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 sanity, from of all people tom friedman, relying on Dr. Katz of Yale. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html horizontal shutdown is stupid. vertical shutdown of those at most risk is the obvious strategy Hey, don't post stuff like that here. There is no middle ground possible here. You'll get the same ridicule from this crowd as Trump!
Spekulatius Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 I think some southern states, especially Florida may get hit hard next. We have also seen the videos with the spring breakers and even last weeks the beaches were crowded as nothing has happened. perhaps the warmer weather helps, but I don’t think it’s as much of a factor for than people think. Lot’s of old people there as well, this could easily become Italy.
meiroy Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 sanity, from of all people tom friedman, relying on Dr. Katz of Yale. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html horizontal shutdown is stupid. vertical shutdown of those at most risk is the obvious strategy For as much as Trump hates the NYTimes, this is basically what he was advocating yesterday. One thing they mentioned during yesterday's press conference was gradually bringing people back to work by age category. First the under 40s, then the under 60s, and all the while protecting the over 70s. People seem to misunderstand that even if you don't die from this virus, it can get quite bad, and even healthy young adults (not that Americans are that healthy on average) that won't die can end up in the hospital taking space from people that would otherwise be saved, or have permanent damage from the virus (lungs, heart), or they can unknowingly infect people in their social circles/family units that are more at risk of death, or even just that they in turn end up taking even more medical resources when there's few to spare, etc. This is still exponential. We need the R0 to be under 1, ideally way under. Not keep it above 1 until hundreds of thousands are dying and millions have been extremely sick and a large unknown number has died from OTHER preventable/curable causes because the healthcare system was destroyed, and how long to rebuild a destroyed healthcare system? You re-open for containment AFTER you have majorly suppressed it, like in SK or China. You don't put an arbitrary deadline on it one week into it without any data on whether the current half-assed measures worked or what the hospital situation will be then. That's BONKERS. I'll keep reposting it because more people need to read it, but this is the way to do it with the least pain, the least economic damage: https://medium.com/@tomaspueyo/coronavirus-the-hammer-and-the-dance-be9337092b56 Well said. It's also worth mentioning that while this is going on people still get heart attacks and strokes and all sorts of other minor issues that can turn serious if medical care is not received. When some die or are permanently damaged because of lack of medical care, due to non-corona-related issues, it's not recorded in the statistics.
dwy000 Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Yeah , right - the President slaps a travel ban on, daring to stop the influx of Chinese nationals - and the opposition party fights him all the way as a xenophobe. And the media eats it up, while defending China all the way. And of course, now, with the strictest social distancing, isolation policies and quarantining in our history - "The President blew it, according to you guys. A lot of the country looks really safe now BECAUSE of Trumps actions. All this, no thanks to the open border crowd that just loves China. Now the man is trying to find the right medium between destroying a multi-billion dollar economy and containment. But you guys have all the answers. You guys kill me! I dont recall anyone questioning the Chinese travel ban. Anyone. And even if they did in some editorial it doesn't matter because it went into effect immediately. It wasn't delayed, it wasn't questioned, it was imposed -boom. How is that the fault of the opposition when Trump did exactly what he wanted to do??? The issue with the travel ban and the quarantining policies are not that he did it, it's that he didn't do enough and fast enough. By the time he acted the cat (or the virus) was out of the bag and the impact was magnified beyond immediate management. The incompetence was non-action (starting right from denial and claiming it was fake) and nothing the opposition did can be blamed for that. The buck stops at the top. You take the credit for the good and you take the blame for the bad. Period.
ERICOPOLY Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Yeah , right - the President slaps a travel ban on, daring to stop the influx of Chinese nationals - and the opposition party fights him all the way as a xenophobe. And the media eats it up, while defending China all the way. And of course, now, with the strictest social distancing, isolation policies and quarantining in our history - "The President blew it, according to you guys. A lot of the country looks really safe now BECAUSE of Trumps actions. He was too busy politicizing it as the "Democrats' new hoax":
Santayana Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Eric, you have the patience of a saint to argue with this guy!
RichardGibbons Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Wow. I find it bizarre that USA is on track to be the worst hit country on earth and several people on this board are absolutely convinced that the federal leadership has nothing to do with that.
minten Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 Please do not self medicate with aquarium cleaner: https://www.businessinsider.com/coronavirus-woman-husband-died-chloroquine-warns-not-to-trust-trump-2020-3 The president has repeatedly touted chloroquine as a "very powerful" treatment against the coronavirus and falsely claimed it was approved by the Food and Drug Administration. NBC News reported that the man, 68, and his wife, 61, took chloroquine to guard against the novel coronavirus, which causes a potentially fatal disease known as COVID-19. It's not clear how much chloroquine the man consumed, and Banner Health said he and his wife ingested a version of the chemical that's used to clean aquariums. Both of them needed to seek medical care within half an hour; the woman is in critical condition, and the man died. i've seen that story appear like twenty times on different media today, with a clear sense of how this was somehow Trump's fault (and also, like this is somehow funny; i mean someone died, hello..). you can put a lot of things on Trump, an enormous amount of things actually, but if someone starts self-medicating randomly with a chemical whose name vaguely resembles something he saw on tv (but apparently couldn't fully remember the name of) i don't think there's really anyone outside himself to blame.
cubsfan Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 I'm saying there are people on this board with very safe jobs and homes, that can't wait for the President to make another mistake - so they can trash the shit out of him - while real suffering is going on. It's easy to say - Nope, President Trump - it's stupid to consider ending this lockdown, in some form or another. Who cares about the working man, when you have a job, and the economy is getting destroyed. The bill will have a lot of garbage in it regardless of who wrote it. In like the a German system better where the largest party write the bill together in committees and then do a formality vote. Germany pushed though their stimulus bill, we are in here for a period of public haggling before every party got their share of pork in order to vote on this. That public haggling is pretty much part of the process. TARP in late 2008 was just the same thing. Tell me about it Spek - time is of the essence - remember? I mean this thing has exponential growth, day by day. So let's hold the country HOSTAGE while we take our time and stuff it full of the "Green New Deal" and Identity Politics legislation. Now that is a serious partner in the war on VC. Be proud of those democrats.
Foreign Tuffett Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 sanity, from of all people tom friedman, relying on Dr. Katz of Yale. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/22/opinion/coronavirus-economy.html horizontal shutdown is stupid. vertical shutdown of those at most risk is the obvious strategy Hey, don't post stuff like that here. There is no middle ground possible here. You'll get the same ridicule from this crowd as Trump! Typical Tom Friedman. Check out the qualifications of the doctor (Katz) who is the sole source of Friedman's proposed plan. He specializes in diet and nutrition. https://www.dietid.com/meet-the-team/#bio-david-katz Take a look at current projects of "The Yale-Griffin Prevention Research Center" that Katz heads. No applicability to the world's current predicament. https://yalegriffinprc.griffinhealth.org/research/current-projects Also, "cubsfan" needs to be banned. He is basically just trolling at this point.
Jurgis Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 This thread has jumped the f%cking shark so high that it's the snakes on the plane all the way down. Please continue. Especially rb. If you survive man, a beer is on me.
Spekulatius Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 I'm saying there are people on this board with very safe jobs and homes, that can't wait for the President to make another mistake - so they can trash the shit out of him - while real suffering is going on. It's easy to say - Nope, President Trump - it's stupid to consider ending this lockdown, in some form or another. Who cares about the working man, when you have a job, and the economy is getting destroyed. The bill will have a lot of garbage in it regardless of who wrote it. In like the a German system better where the largest party write the bill together in committees and then do a formality vote. Germany pushed though their stimulus bill, we are in here for a period of public haggling before every party got their share of pork in order to vote on this. That public haggling is pretty much part of the process. TARP in late 2008 was just the same thing. Tell me about it Spek - time is of the essence - remember? I mean this thing has exponential growth, day by day. So let's hold the country HOSTAGE while we take our time and stuff it full of the "Green New Deal" and Identity Politics legislation. Now that is a serious partner in the war on VC. Be proud of those democrats. There is enough money to fight the Virus directly, that’s not the issue. The bill is about dealing with the economic fallout. I am not condoning delays, but they are a consequence of the existing system to write partisan bills and then get hashed out a compromise in public. It could be done differently but it isn’t.
meiroy Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 I really hope and wish that he is supremely successful and luck favors him in containing the virus. But, I think it is looking increasingly likely that he is going to cause grievous harm to a lot of citizens with his approach. It would be a terrible price the country would be paying for electing someone like him. Vinod Nicely written Vinod. If we're looking for this not to repeat itself, it's important not to focus the blame on Trump. His various actions including dispersing the pandemic response team have been supported by a circle of enablers. He cannot be where he is now without these people. Even if he is not re-elected, they would remain and would continue to cause harm. Worse, many of the citizens harmed by him and his enablers would still continue their support.
Kaegi2011 Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 The Democrats fully supported passing a stimulus bill. Aaand I'm out. Finally. [golf clap]
Kaegi2011 Posted March 25, 2020 Posted March 25, 2020 I'm saying there are people on this board with very safe jobs and homes, that can't wait for the President to make another mistake - so they can trash the shit out of him - while real suffering is going on. It's easy to say - Nope, President Trump - it's stupid to consider ending this lockdown, in some form or another. Who cares about the working man, when you have a job, and the economy is getting destroyed. What if I care about all people but I choose to favor lives that won't come back above jobs that eventually will? I'm sure you are a complete humanitarian and a generous person. I'm not questioning that. I don't understand the scorn reserved for the President at a time of crisis. Some things are not going to go correctly, yet this is being used as the time to bring him down. Continue to have at it. It will likely work where impeachment didn't. How is the opposition party absolved of ANY responsibility here with a 3 year clusterfuck where the #1 issue was get rid of Trump and NOT GOVERN? Totally wasting everyone's time for nothing and ignoring issues critical to the country. How is the opposition party absolved of using this crisis to stuff a critical bill full of crap that has nothing to do with solving a crisis? How is the opposition party absolved of the fight to recalibrate our relationship with China - which clearly needs to happen? Where were the governors that rooted on "open borders" and no immigration security and crapping on our streets? Do any of these politicians share any blame? Nope - not when you can blame it all on the President you hate. Continue to focus all your scorn on the President. You'll get you wish with wartime President Biden and associates Schiff, Pelosi and Nadler. Can't wait to see how they deal with this once they open the borders. Dude, how could you forget about Bengahzi and Hillary's emails??!?! And the prostitution ring in the pizza joint!!!
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