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muscleman
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Did you guys hear that the Trump Library at Mar-a-Lago burned down?

 

Both books were destroyed and the crayons had melted all over the wood floors! 

 

Cheers and have a great weekend!

 

 

NEWSFLASH:  After January 20, 2017, it's no longer racist to make jokes about the President's intellect.

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Hey all:

 

I am surprised there is not more of a "rebellion" against Obama Care or whatever it's replacement will be.

 

Every single attorney (mainly very late 20's or early mid 30's) that I worked with and would discuss it, was paying the penalty.  NOBODY that I worked with bought insurance.

 

The premiums were so expensive and the DEDUCTIBLE so high, you could make a plausible argument that it was not really insurance at all.  Simply moving wealth from one group to another.

 

If Trump is not careful, he is going to have a problem with this.

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Really shows the problem with any form of entitlement. Once a dog has a bone in his mouth, if you remove it, he will bite you.

 

Cardboard

 

Which is why government always grows like a cancer taking over the host society until it kills it, and it never shrinks.  Not without a scalpel and a lot of blood anyway.

 

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Did you guys hear that the Trump Library at Mar-a-Lago burned down?

 

Both books were destroyed and the crayons had melted all over the wood floors! 

 

Cheers and have a great weekend!

 

 

NEWSFLASH:  After January 20, 2017, it's no longer racist to make jokes about the President's intellect.

 

Lol. You may well disagree with Obama's positions, but it is a false equivalence to suggest that Obama did as much as Trump already has done to legitimately call into question his level of intellect.

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So your attorney friends just went without any form of health insurance?  What if they ended up in the hospital?  $100k+ could add up quickly (especially without the negotiated rates) while they tried to quickly enroll in a new health insurance plan

 

Hey all:

 

I am surprised there is not more of a "rebellion" against Obama Care or whatever it's replacement will be.

 

Every single attorney (mainly very late 20's or early mid 30's) that I worked with and would discuss it, was paying the penalty.  NOBODY that I worked with bought insurance.

 

The premiums were so expensive and the DEDUCTIBLE so high, you could make a plausible argument that it was not really insurance at all.  Simply moving wealth from one group to another.

 

If Trump is not careful, he is going to have a problem with this.

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Hey all:

 

I am surprised there is not more of a "rebellion" against Obama Care or whatever it's replacement will be.

 

Every single attorney (mainly very late 20's or early mid 30's) that I worked with and would discuss it, was paying the penalty.  NOBODY that I worked with bought insurance.

 

The premiums were so expensive and the DEDUCTIBLE so high, you could make a plausible argument that it was not really insurance at all.  Simply moving wealth from one group to another.

 

If Trump is not careful, he is going to have a problem with this.

 

Another anecdote - this from the doctor's viewpoint. My very good friend is a hand surgeon here in Chicagoland. He's a very kind and charitable type. Has always done lots of free care with no complaints. He explained me the problem of Obamacare from his

standpoint. He's one of the best hand surgeons in the area - and a sole practitioner, so he can make his own calls without worrying

about the partnership impact. Anyway, when he would get Medicaid patients - he'd make very little money due to rates, but there wasn't much hassle - and he felt like he was helping the poor - so he gladly did it. When Obamacare came along, it's basically the same situation with patients, but the hassle factor was incredible. He's filling out 20 page reports justifying the surgery, going back and forth to get approvals. Meanwhile, patients might have excessive waits while he's fighting for the coverage. Finally, he just pulled out altogether - "I'm trying to help these people, I don't make anything, yet it's an incredible burden for me to get anything done". His opinion - that's why doctors are pulling out.

 

He says "Look, the Obamacare patients have COVERAGE, but they don't have physician ACCESS to the best care."

 

When someone approaches him now, they may have to search all over and drive 100 miles to get ACCESS to the best care.

He feels sorry for the patients because they think they have GOOD coverage, and they don't. It's can be an incredible

hassle for them - even though they THINK they have high quality coverage.

 

This system is so broken. I thought I was the only one pissed off due to my insurance premiums going up 400% in 7 years.

 

Many doctors hate it, and patient care is suffering as well. This system has to be improved.

 

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So your attorney friends just went without any form of health insurance?  What if they ended up in the hospital?  $100k+ could add up quickly (especially without the negotiated rates) while they tried to quickly enroll in a new health insurance plan

 

Hey all:

 

I am surprised there is not more of a "rebellion" against Obama Care or whatever it's replacement will be.

 

Every single attorney (mainly very late 20's or early mid 30's) that I worked with and would discuss it, was paying the penalty.  NOBODY that I worked with bought insurance.

 

The premiums were so expensive and the DEDUCTIBLE so high, you could make a plausible argument that it was not really insurance at all.  Simply moving wealth from one group to another.

 

If Trump is not careful, he is going to have a problem with this.

 

My understanding is that you don't have to pay for it until you need it. You won't have a good selection of doctors, or preventative care, but Obama created an 'insurance' policy that really isn't - people have the right to acquire it once they get hurt, and presumably for only as long as they're hurt.

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I was talking to a broker at a happy hour recently.  He said 20% of people hit their deductible each year.

 

Over the past three years I've hit the deductible each year.  I don't have anything crazy, just four boys with boy type issues (plus a birth).  I just look at this like a $7k pay cut, it sucks, but that's what it is...

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Really shows the problem with any form of entitlement. Once a dog has a bone in his mouth, if you remove it, he will bite you.

 

Cardboard

 

we agree for once, Cardboard.

 

We probably disagree on the solution though; Obamacare is a government handout to the health care industry. It is the worst form of corporate welfare payment.

 

Moving to single payer, with the negotiating power of all becoming one, is probably the best way to lower prices substantially. The second or third order effects could be very interesting, however...

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I don't have anything crazy

 

(plus a birth)

 

contradictory

 

I guess, except it's fairly normal for people in their 30s.  A birth isn't even that much, about $3k all-in.

 

We debate taking kids to the doctor because of the cost.  Every visit is a $150 hit.  The good news is we've started to learn how to diagnose things at home and try home remedies first.  No sense in paying a doctor unless you need to.

 

The real scam is if you do anything at a hospital.  You'll get a bill for the "hospital facility charge" and then from the doctors, often double.  You pay twice.  If you have a procedure outside of the hospital it's only one cost.

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So your attorney friends just went without any form of health insurance?  What if they ended up in the hospital?  $100k+ could add up quickly (especially without the negotiated rates) while they tried to quickly enroll in a new health insurance plan

 

Hey all:

 

I am surprised there is not more of a "rebellion" against Obama Care or whatever it's replacement will be.

 

Every single attorney (mainly very late 20's or early mid 30's) that I worked with and would discuss it, was paying the penalty.  NOBODY that I worked with bought insurance.

 

The premiums were so expensive and the DEDUCTIBLE so high, you could make a plausible argument that it was not really insurance at all.  Simply moving wealth from one group to another.

 

If Trump is not careful, he is going to have a problem with this.

 

Oh yes, most every attorney did not have health care where I worked.  Those that did have it, had it through their spouses...

 

I think most people have an incorrect view of the legal profession...

 

Most attorneys (these days) are poor and DO NOT make a good wage.  I am going to guess that the majority of people on this board who deal with attorneys, deal with what the industry calls "BIG LAW" type lawyers.  These are the lawyers that bill out $300, $400+ per hour.  This segment of the legal industry is about 10% - 15% of attorneys maybe?  These attorneys frequently (not always) make a good living, and this is probably what most of the public thinks of when they envision what an attorney is/does.  These attorneys usually go to a "tier 1" school and did very well in their class.  If you DID NOT go to a top school, you can still sometimes make it in if you have very specialized knowledge (patent law) OR are connected somehow (politics or capital).

 

Then you've got another segment of attorneys that work in smaller firms or specialized local areas.  These are frequently "BIG LAW" type people who washed out or got out of the "BIG LAW" grind.  This area of law also recruits from well regarded state schools.

 

Go down another tier and you've got prosecuting attorneys  and government attorneys.  They frequently work decent hours and CAN make a decent living after some amount of time.  These positions used to be easier to get than they are now.  Graduates of a lot of schools, 1,2nd,3rd tier can get these jobs.  Still very competitive though, especially these days.  Very good to be "juiced in"...The lower the tier of law school you went to, the more difficult it is though.

 

One problem with these positions is that a lot of government agencies do not have sufficient funding...thus you get the problem of starting prosecuting attorneys (Boston) being the LOWEST paid employee in the court house.  Much lower starting wage than the janitor...  You also start to have problems where the agency wants you to work for a year as an intern for FREE.  This is the other level of attorney that a lot of people think of when you mention the word "attorney".

 

Go down another level and you've got sole practitioners "hanging a shingle" and very small firms (1,2,3 members).  These people are all over the board...but MOST of them do not make very much money. Some of them do make good money, but they are the exception.

 

On yet  another level are "contract" attorneys.  This is what I did.  We would work on a case by base basis preparing/helping for big, massive lawsuits.  This used to be the exclusive domain of "BIG LAW". Newly hired "BIG LAW" attorneys would "make their bones" by doing this for a couple/few years and then moving up through the firm.  About 15 years ago, this work started to get outsourced,  Why have a junior associate at a "BIG LAW" firm in NYC do this for $150/hour when it can be "onshored" from NYC/DC to Detroit?  Detroit has plenty of experienced attorneys who are hungry and will work for $20,$22, $23 (no benefits) an hour.  Obviously, rent & infrastructure is cheaper in Detroit than it is in NYC/DC.  Detroit is not the only place where this happens...

 

There are THOUSANDS of attorneys who are doing this.  Up to 100 attorneys will get packed into a large room, and each has a small desk/cubicle/work area to do their work.  This is largely boring/tedious work sorting documents, doing low level analysis of communications/contracts, etc.  It is crucial work that has to be done.

 

I did it because I needed work at that point in my life.  I also had some finance/banking experience which was needed on certain projects.  I also was reasonably good at what I did, no drinking/fighting/cursing/yelling, showed up on time, did my work...so I got put on another project when one ended (rolled over).  I would have work available 90% of the time.  Those attorneys that did not do good work, or were difficult to work with, were only given work when "warm bodies" were desperately needed...

 

The crazy stories I could tell about crazy attorneys could fill a book!

 

One of the MANY crazy things about this work was that many attorneys regarded this work as desirable and "BIG KASH MONEY" work!  WTF???  How could that be?

 

A). Many attorneys simply never could get hired on anywhere for anything.  Some of these people could be mistaken for hobos...but there were PLENTY of sharp, hard working people that this happened to.  I made friends with a woman who graduated 3rd in her class and was in school on scholarship.  She looked for work for over a year before she got hired on as a contract worker.  She was in a desperate situation, and finally made it into contract work.

 

B). There were "BIG LAW" type people who were let go in the great financial meltdown and simply could not find work anywhere else.  People with shockingly good resumes.  This frequently happens to older workers.  There were attorneys in their 60's doing this...

 

C). There were also plenty of people who "hanged their shingle" and were trying to make extra money.  A lot of these people were really scraping by...These guys generally are not making much money, especially when you factor in expenses.

 

D). Most shocking of all were the "sh!t law" people.  These are the attorneys that work the DUI, bankruptcy, personal injury, criminal law, etc,  at the "mill" firms.  These were frequently fresh out of school people desperate for a job.  Firm hires them at $28k, $32k a year...young attorney is happy to get a job in their field, even though it is a less than prestigious firm.  What they DO NOT REALIZE is that they are working 80 hours a week.  Working with desperate/screwy clients, desperate/screwy bosses.  Sure, they make $30k a year, but they've got to put in 3,500-4,000 hours a year to get that money.

 

They continue to slog through it, hoping to rise up the ladder.  What they did not realize is that the business model is simply to burn through them.  When they can't/won't take it anymore, there is another fresh/desperate graduate willing to work for that money.  They are then replaced and the model churns ahead.  They are/were expendable workers.  There is no advancement/career path.

 

So they move to contract work at a much easier work load and a lot more money.

 

There are many of thousands of attorneys doing this.

 

This is what was so shocking to me.

 

E). Then you've got a segment of attorneys that simply can not get ANY work at all.

 

F). Then you've got a segment of law school graduates who can't pass the bar, and thus can never work as an attorney.  You would think this segment would be tiny, but it is not.

 

So the well paying jobs in law go to about 10% or 15% of graduates...the rest fend for themselves.

 

The other pressing problem is the mammoth debt levels that most younger attorneys have.

 

So no, most attorneys that I worked with did not buy any health insurance.

 

The other problem with Obama care is that after some level of benefits being paid out, the payout ratio switches from 80/20 to 20/80.  Thus, if you get a 100K+ medical bill, you are likely to be wiped out financially anyway...so why buy it?  The only way it would make sense financially is if you have a MODERATE bill (broken limb) or something like that.  A minor illness would not meet your deductible.  A MAJOR big time bill, and you are still wiped financially.

 

Sorry for the long post, hope this is informative!

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we agree for once, Cardboard.

 

We probably disagree on the solution though; Obamacare is a government handout to the health care industry. It is the worst form of corporate welfare payment.

 

Moving to single payer, with the negotiating power of all becoming one, is probably the best way to lower prices substantially. The second or third order effects could be very interesting, however...

 

+1

Obama's biggest mistake was to gut the single payer idea. With the congressional majority he had , he could have given a middle finger to the repubs and force those blue dog losers to vote for the liberal agenda but he had no balls. Single payer works and has been successfully implemented in many developed countries. These conservatives have no problem accepting govt dole via medicare, supporting government funded military but hell breaks loose if we spend any money to cover the poor.

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"We debate taking kids to the doctor because of the cost.  Every visit is a $150 hit.  The good news is we've started to learn how to diagnose things at home and try home remedies first.  No sense in paying a doctor unless you need to"

 

This is the ingredient missing with a system like we have in Canada.

 

I have nothing against providing healthcare to the less fortunate but, try to keep that self responsibility part.

 

Cardboard

 

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Does anyone have a good understanding of it? It seems pretty confusing to me.

How will this be different from ObamaCare?

 

That is a good question...nobody even tried answering though. I would like to have someone explaining it, with facts!

 

 

Oh and as a reminder, healthcare cost are a higher % of GDP in the US than in most of the developed countries. Food for thought!

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Does anyone have a good understanding of it? It seems pretty confusing to me.

How will this be different from ObamaCare?

 

That is a good question...nobody even tried answering though. I would like to have someone explaining it, with facts!

 

NYTimes has a helpful summary comparing Trumpcare and Obamacare.

 

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/03/06/us/politics/republican-obamacare-replacement.html

 

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I think most people have an incorrect view of the legal profession...

 

Sorry for the long post, hope this is informative!

 

to fix health care, that is to say, to make it affordable, there needs to be as many health care workers as there are attorneys in your description.  i don't believe the problem is of the structure of payment as much as it is supply and demand.

 

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Guest Schwab711

I think most people have an incorrect view of the legal profession...

 

Sorry for the long post, hope this is informative!

 

to fix health care, that is to say, to make it affordable, there needs to be as many health care workers as there are attorneys in your description.  i don't believe the problem is of the structure of payment as much as it is supply and demand.

 

I'm starting to believe that there is no solution that doesn't include a huge increase in MDs and RNs.

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