Oy Vey Neri!

[Parsad]

8 hours ago, Sweet said:

Musk and Ackman still are liberals it’s just there is a section of the liberal left that went far-left and went crazy.

 

That's also true of the conservative right...a subgroup went far right and is equally bonkers!  Cheers!

[Parsad]

6 hours ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

It's quite clear at this point that DEI is the antithesis of fairness and equal opportunities. Among other things, it's racism re-branded, yet again.

 

It amazes me that after so many injustices, humanity just can't seem to tear itself away from the horrific idea that skin colour should dictate outcomes.

 

Unfortunately, the reality remains in many cases that it does.  There are generations of people whose futures were limited by colonialism and race.  While the pendulum may have swung further than past progressives intended, there is no doubt that inequality existed and to a certain degree continues to exist.

 

When my brother, Mom and I visited London last fall, my brother made an interesting observation as we passed Buckingham Palace.  This lady that we respect for her responsibility, work ethic and durability...her family essentially dictated the fate of my family and their ancestors going back almost 225 years to India...then subsequently Fiji which was a Commonwealth country...then Canada (the same).  This family of royals benefited from the labour of generations of Parsads going back 200 years...yet none of those individuals could vote for her, tell her family to go to hell, nor escape their grips until 1982 when the Canadian Constitution was signed. 

 

Cheers! 

[RichardGibbons]

31 minutes ago, Parsad said:

her family essentially dictated the fate of my family and their ancestors going back almost 225 years to India

 

There's some particular irony there too.

 

The racism inherent in British colonialism likely had many negative impacts on your ancestors. But now, because ethic Indians have among the best outcomes in North American society, DEI is implementing systemic discrimination targeting your niece and nephew as well.

[Parsad]

5 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

 

There's some particular irony there too.

 

The racism inherent in British colonialism likely had many negative impacts on your ancestors. But now, because ethic Indians have among the best outcomes in North American society, DEI is implementing systemic discrimination targeting your niece and nephew as well.

 

Possibly, but they have huge advantages that my generation and previous generations of immigrant families did not.  My niece and nephew will inherit significant wealth...higher education is definitely covered if they choose to go...they are beneficiaries of decades of changes in civil rights and in cultural norms (they can marry whomever they want where caste, race and class are irrelevant)...they have technological advantages that enlighten their global awareness, education and future compared to lesser developed countries where poverty prevents the widespread use of tech...and probably many more that I cannot think of.  

 

In general, democratic societies have a built-in mechanism to correct over-corrections.  In other words, the change in political parties tends to ensure that the pendulum doesn't swing too far on the progressive or regressive side.  Look at the U.S. today...what a effing mess.  But that ability to share your ideology, fight for your ideology and even disagree with another's ideology, leads to compromise where the pendulum is kept in check.  Just like how Congress keeps compromising and then finally approving a budget every six months.  No party gets their way completely!

 

Cheers!

[Sweet]

2 hours ago, Parsad said:

This family of royals benefited from the labour of generations of Parsads going back 200 years...yet none of those individuals could vote for her, tell her family to go to hell, nor escape their grips until 1982 when the Canadian Constitution was signed. 

Are you talking about the Queen Parsad?

 

The Royal Family haven’t had any political power for a very long time - UK, Canada (not sure about Fiji) - Parliament makes the laws.

 

Not sure what you mean about them dictating the fate of your family.  It’s been parliaments for a great many years that calls the shots, well before 1982 in Canada, 1867 I understand.

[Sweet]

7 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

That's also true of the conservative right...a subgroup went far right and is equally bonkers!  Cheers!

Absolutely.  Although one difference, according to many on the left and many media outlets, anyone to right of someone like Bill Maher is far-right.  Margaret Thatcher would be considered a fully fledged fascist these days.

 

 

 

 

Edited January 8 by Sweet

[Spekulatius]

@Parsad Do you think the Parsads would be better off, if the Brit’s never had set foot on the Indian continent? Impossible to know, but I would put the chance no better than 50/50. The Brits for all their faults put some rules and systems into place and overall their colonies were better run than the French, Spanish or Portuguese ones.

 

The only country that was never colonized in that Area is Thailand and they are somewhat better off than their immediate neighbors. Then there is Japan, but it’s an entirely different situation and geography.

 

Apaolgies for getting  truly off the rails here. I am still interested to see if Nery keeps here PhD or not. Seems like copy and pasting several pages is more than an oversight issue. Or perhaps she just had a lazy ghost writer which is quite commoner amongst the entitled. 

[Ulti]

15 hours ago, Dinar said:

oh, and let's not forget, the current receipients of Rhodes' scholarships are not scholars but activists.  Look at the Harvard winner this year - a supporter of Hamas if I am not mistaken and will be majoring in progressive activism!

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/11/10-from-harvard-named-rhodes-scholars/

 

Asmer Asrar Safi, who is from Pakistan, studies social studies and ethnicity, migration and human rights at Harvard College. His senior thesis is focused on Maulana Abdul Rahim Popalzai, a Muslim cleric known for leading peasant and labor movements in the Frontier Province of British India. Safi co-founded the South Asians for Forward-Thinking Advocacy and Research Initiative, and is particularly interested in bringing conversations from Pakistan to the global stage. At Oxford, he will study progressive political messaging in South Asia.

 

Its nice to have context... I am curious about what is progressive political messaging is and how does this relate to S Asia..Hopefully Oxford throws in some Democracy and democracy in the coursework

 

 

[SharperDingaan]

There has always been racism; it's just called different names, and is simply what happens when humans collect. Whether it's called tribalism, apartheid, caste systems, class systems, or wealth inequality; it's the same thing, just practised different ways, and exists purely to 'rank' people within a group. I am advantaged in some way (independent of my own efforts), you aren't, so I'm better/worth more than you. I'm Israeli you're Palestinian. I'm white you're coloured. I'm Brahman you aren't. I'm high class you're a labourer. I'm an idiot but born stupid rich ... you're super smart but born dirt poor, etc.

 

If you're on the bottom and virulent; it's f*** ****, and do something about it! If you're on the top and doing little to maintain your position .... riches to rags in 3 generations is a well trod path. However, allow the divisions to breathe (mix, travel, inter-marry, etc.), and evolutionary 'change' across the generations gets everyone the best of all worlds. Fear of change breeds resistance, and the more resistance, the more the political pendulum swings to the extremes.

 

DEI, as is currently practised, is just a poorly executed attempt to accelerate change. Given the track-record, once has to think that the approach is due for a change. Rhodes was just another robber baron of his time; but whatever one thinks of them, it's hard to argue against their merit based approach. The big difference today is that there are many times more of them; scalability.

 

SD

[rohitc99]

3 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

@Parsad Do you think the Parsads would be better off, if the Brit’s never had set foot on the Indian continent? Impossible to know, but I would put the chance no better than 50/50. The Brits for all their faults put some rules and systems into place and overall their colonies were better run than the French, Spanish or Portuguese ones.

 

The only country that was never colonized in that Area is Thailand and they are somewhat better off than their immediate neighbors. Then there is Japan, but it’s an entirely different situation and geography.

 

Apaolgies for getting  truly off the rails here. I am still interested to see if Nery keeps here PhD or not. Seems like copy and pasting several pages is more than an oversight issue. Or perhaps she just had a lazy ghost writer which is quite commoner amongst the entitled. 

Thats a loaded comment and for that you need to have a deep understanding of the history of India to arrive at a number.  I would put the chance as 99/1 that indians would be better off. They 'were' better off before the British. India was colonized due to its own political short coming, but does not mean that it was good by any means.

 

Leaving aside the human misery and enslavement, even the economically the country was plundered.

[james22]

1 hour ago, SharperDingaan said:

DEI, as is currently practised, is just a poorly executed attempt to accelerate change.

 

No, it's a reversal, replacing good and evil with oppressed and oppressor, character with color, ideas with identity, etc.

[Sweet]

27 minutes ago, rohitc99 said:

Thats a loaded comment and for that you need to have a deep understanding of the history of India to arrive at a number.  I would put the chance as 99/1 that indians would be better off. They 'were' better off before the British. India was colonized due to its own political short coming, but does not mean that it was good by any means.

 

Leaving aside the human misery and enslavement, even the economically the country was plundered.

India wasn’t colonised in the same way as North America, there were no settlers establishing a Jamestown, it’s not on par with what happened in Australia and North America.

 

What do you mean by enslavement here?

[rohitc99]

23 minutes ago, Sweet said:

India wasn’t colonised in the same way as North America, there were no settlers establishing a Jamestown, it’s not on par with what happened in Australia and North America.

 

What do you mean by enslavement here?

Yes, not the same but then i dont know if you can really put a ranking on human misery. 

 

The east (bengal) and other parts of india had indigo farmers who were close to bonded labor. It was done very cleverly. Control the local zamindar (like a local landlord) who in turn would have these bonded labor. Whatever was collected as revenue (extremely high rate) would flow upwards. 

 

I dont have the reference here, but the railways and other infra for which supposedly indians should be grateful for, was funded through debt/bonds on the local economy.  Some of the arguments is that some practises such as the caste system was not introduced by the british and it was actually Indians doing to themselves. But they used it very cleverly to their advantage (sit on top of the social pyramid) and used it justify their actions

 

I won't add any further as it can get contentious on a public forum. 

[james22]

You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.  Napier

[Dinar]

3 hours ago, Ulti said:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2023/11/10-from-harvard-named-rhodes-scholars/

 

Asmer Asrar Safi, who is from Pakistan, studies social studies and ethnicity, migration and human rights at Harvard College. His senior thesis is focused on Maulana Abdul Rahim Popalzai, a Muslim cleric known for leading peasant and labor movements in the Frontier Province of British India. Safi co-founded the South Asians for Forward-Thinking Advocacy and Research Initiative, and is particularly interested in bringing conversations from Pakistan to the global stage. At Oxford, he will study progressive political messaging in South Asia.

 

Its nice to have context... I am curious about what is progressive political messaging is and how does this relate to S Asia..Hopefully Oxford throws in some Democracy and democracy in the coursework

 

 

What context do you need to justify supporting Hamas?  This individual supports Hamas and extolled the October 7th terrorist attack on Israel.  

[rohitc99]

3 minutes ago, james22 said:

You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours.  Napier

absolutely. two wrongs make a right. 

 

this is what i wanted to avoid bringing up. How do you justify colonization and murder (Jallianwala Bagh massacre - Wikipedia) ? highlight all the negatives of the society you conquered. The British came and civilized a bunch of Africans and Indians who were savages before that. 

[Ulti]

12 minutes ago, Dinar said:

What context do you need to justify supporting Hamas?  This individual supports Hamas and extolled the October 7th terrorist attack on Israel.  

A. Trust me. I am in your camp concerning Hamas and  its attack on Oct 7 \Israel.

B. As far as context, it was very interesting to read all the bios of the scholar winners from Harvard.  I also  want to know the background of the people who's views and beliefs differ from mine esp. those who support Hamas and their Oct 7 attack ( Paraphrasing Sun Tzu..Know yourself and know your enemy ).

C.https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-israelis-and-palestinians-are-both-trapped-by-the-dangerous-fantasies/.. a rational piece from an author who has 30 years of personal historical experience. I also like reading Tom Friedman's pieces in the NYT.. again personal historical experience.

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, rohitc99 said:

Yes, not the same but then i dont know if you can really put a ranking on human misery. 

 

The east (bengal) and other parts of india had indigo farmers who were close to bonded labor. It was done very cleverly. Control the local zamindar (like a local landlord) who in turn would have these bonded labor. Whatever was collected as revenue (extremely high rate) would flow upwards. 

 

I dont have the reference here, but the railways and other infra for which supposedly indians should be grateful for, was funded through debt/bonds on the local economy.  Some of the arguments is that some practises such as the caste system was not introduced by the british and it was actually Indians doing to themselves. But they used it very cleverly to their advantage (sit on top of the social pyramid) and used it justify their actions

 

I won't add any further as it can get contentious on a public forum. 

Bonded Labour sounds like indentured servitude, the practice was widespread in Europe too, most famously to pay for the trip from Europe to North America.  Not a nice viewed from today.

 

Edited January 8 by Sweet

[Ulti]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/style/media/2024/01/08/neri-oxman-ackman-axel-springer-business-insider/

[rohitc99]

1 hour ago, Sweet said:

Bonded Labour sounds like indentured servitude, the practice was widespread in Europe too, most famously to pay for the trip from Europe to North America.  Not a nice viewed from today.

 

+1  agree. all forms of oppression is bad whether done by your own race, country or by some other country and although we cannot turn the clock back, there can never be any valid justification for it. 

 

[SharperDingaan]

30 minutes ago, rohitc99 said:

+1  agree. all forms of oppression is bad whether done by your own race, country or by some other country and although we cannot turn the clock back, there can never be any valid justification for it. 

 

You might want to keep in mind that bonded labour remains widespread today, throughout the US. Every star 'under contract' to a sports team, entertainment organisation, as well as the various underlings in the organised crime trades, etc. 10M for 3 years at XYZ team, is the very definition of bonded labour.

 

SD

Edited January 8 by SharperDingaan

[Gregmal]

All that becomes evident over time is that if folks wanna wage war, it should be against the real enemies of the people and that is journalists and high level academics. Its not school teachers or police officers, but these scumbags who hide behind meaningless but societally engrained auras of prestige. 95% of journalists nowadays promote partisan agendas and ideology rather than just finding the truth. These academics who make 6/7 figures teaching a few hours a week while preying on students and sitting on influential boards and societies; these are the ones creating toxic and poisonous substance that then permeates through America. They dictate what the kids get taught. Theyre the gatekeepers for what makes the news. They determine the narrative. Glad Ackman is exposing them as frauds, liars, and cheats. Same goes for Musk. And I dont care at all if some outlet or reporter can find a "gotcha" snippet that perhaps indicates either are hypocrites...

Edited January 8 by Gregmal

[cubsfan]

3 hours ago, james22 said:

 

No, it's a reversal, replacing good and evil with oppressed and oppressor, character with color, ideas with identity, etc.

 

DEI is out and out racism plain and simple. Just ask the Jews in the Ivy League. Or those high achieving Asian students being discriminated against for years by Stanford and the Ivies.

It's great to see DEI exposed as the race-hustling scam it really is.

 

Never forget the words of race hustler extraordinaire Ibram X. Kendi:

 

"The only remedy to past discrimination, is present discrimination"

 

That's the basis & belief of DEI and that is certainly not racial progress.

 

 

[RichardGibbons]

11 hours ago, Parsad said:

Possibly, but they have huge advantages that my generation and previous generations of immigrant families did not.  My niece and nephew will inherit significant wealth...higher education is definitely covered if they choose to go...

 

Yeah, and I think that to the extent to which discrimination and bias is deliberately introduced into the system, it should be on such dimensions. 

 

For instance, if economically, you and your family are worse off, then you should get systemic advantages (though not to the extent that achievement is discouraged, as that would have the effect of pushing people down, rather than helping raise them up.)  That's the whole point behind things like bursaries and progressive taxation.

 

The way I see it, if there's inequalities between racial groups, then that gets resolved by a larger proportion of a particular racial group able to avail themselves of those systemic advantages. And, governmental messaging on race should basically be, "At our core, people are essentially the same, and it's abhorrent discriminating based on race."  (As opposed to now, where the government messaging in Canada is essentially, "Race is super-important thing that should divide us. Certain races are less competent, dangerously fragile, and kind of pathetic. And some are also evil. So, it's only sensible to be a racist.")

[Spekulatius]

5 hours ago, rohitc99 said:

Thats a loaded comment and for that you need to have a deep understanding of the history of India to arrive at a number.  I would put the chance as 99/1 that indians would be better off. They 'were' better off before the British. India was colonized due to its own political short coming, but does not mean that it was good by any means.

 

Leaving aside the human misery and enslavement, even the economically the country was plundered.

Thank you for your perspective. You obviously know more about this topic than I do and are certainly correct.

 

Short of the city states like Singapore and Hongkong, I can't come up with any country that seem to have benefited from colonization. Hongkong thrived because it was used as a base for the British to exploit China to a large extent.