Is Europe becoming uninvestable?

[Marco Van Basten]

4 hours ago, Paarslaars said:

Which freedom do you think US citizens have that we do not?

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

[Libs]

22 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

 

22 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

 

22 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

Bingo. This is the whole game. 

[cubsfan]

19 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

 

It's the slow move to the suppression of political dissent and the move toward totalitarianism. Worse yet, try it in an Islamic country and you'll end up dead.

 

Much of Europe will learn the hard way.  The USA is fighting its way out as we speak and it's ugly.

[tooskinneejs]

5 hours ago, Paarslaars said:

Which freedom do you think US citizens have that we do not?

Free speech, as others have noted.  But also freedom of how to spend your money if nearly 50% is taken off the top.

[Dalal.Holdings]

Everyone loves free healthcare and a lot of vacations. The problem is when Genghis Khan or Vladimir Putin come to take everything away because you suddenly find you no longer have economic heft or technological capabilities to defend yourself and also lack citizens willing to fight for said defense.

 

And no, guys fighting to defend the country won’t have access to “work-life balance”. They’ll have to be ready to work hard.

 

It is looking increasingly likely that high-end technology, notably AI, will be absolutely crucial for military supremacy, not to mention industrial capacity which Europe seems intent to diminish.

 

Europe has been living in a fantasy thanks to the USA covering for its defense since the end of the Cold War…

[james22]

 

[Paarslaars]

11 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said:

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

 

Here you have to make a clean distinction between UK and the rest of Europe.

In the UK, Keir Starmer has been sentencing people based on X posts which is a blatant attack on freedom of speech, the guy is an absolute disgrace of a human being. You cannot generalize this for Europe as a whole.

 

You can make your statement in Belgium without any legal issues. Same for countries like Italy, Spain, every eastern European country,... many people currently do. Not sure about all Scandinavian ones but if I am not mistaken even a minister in Norway recently made your exact comment.

 

And let's not pretend U.S. citizens take criticizing Jesus all that well... feel free to go to a small town in the south or mid-west and drive around with a car stating "Jesus is a fag", how long until you get your ass shot? Not trying to provoke here but... let's be fair when making these comparisons. 

 

10 hours ago, tooskinneejs said:

Free speech, as others have noted.  But also freedom of how to spend your money if nearly 50% is taken off the top.

 

You don't really have freedom to spend your money if you are forced to spend all of it on high rent prices and medical care. I have the freedom to spend the money after taxes because thanks to free health care and cheap higher education, I don't have to save up for a surgery or a kids college fund. If you compare these two systems overall on their financial merit, I think @Spekulatius summarized it well. The high earners (without too much bad luck) are better off in US, the rest is better off in Europe. And while I agree with @Kizion that this has distorted our society too far to take advantage of, I still prefer to live in a place where the people around me are generally doing OK and not struggling financially, independent of their income bracket. And just to be clear, I would fall under 'high earner' so I am not stating this out of self interest, nor am I a socialist because I've voted for the same right-wing party since I'm 18.

 

Europe has gone too far in letting people take advantage of the social security system though, we are gradually seeing counter measurements being taken, as the recent Belgian government has plans to do so as well.

 

Edited Tuesday at 06:41 AM by Paarslaars

[Loss Horizon]

On 6/29/2026 at 8:56 PM, Marco Van Basten said:

Freedom of speech.  What will happen to me in France, UK, et all if I say that Islam is a threat to European civilization and Islamic immigration is incompatible with Western values?

 

Nothing? In Germany, some people who say this are literally in the parliament.

 

Btw, who promised free speech in the first place? In Germany it is clearly limited by federal laws. For example, insulting somebody is a crime, as it in the law for long time already. Quoting the Nazis is also a crime. Just don't do crime and get familiar with local laws before you enter a country.

 

But the courts are quite relaxed, and they usually allow of some insults to politicians, because it's part of politicians' job to have a thick skin.

 

When I visited the US, I had to prepare and learn many things: what to say to the border control, that if I'm stopped by road police I better keep my hands on the wheel and visible, that I must keep alcohol bottles in trunk when driving, and cover a bottle with a paper bag if drinking in public. That I must not say the Russian word "книга"("book") in public. Those feel ridiculous, but I accepted and prepared as a guest. Same with Germany.

 

The American populists, including the current ruling class, love to compare rules like that with other countries and imply that it is something bad.

Edited yesterday at 01:48 AM by Loss Horizon

[Marco Van Basten]

55 minutes ago, Loss Horizon said:

 

Nothing? In Germany, some people who say this are literally in the parliament.

 

Btw, who promised free speech in the first place? In Germany it is clearly limited by federal laws. For example, insulting somebody is a crime, as it in the law for long time already. Quoting the Nazis is also a crime. Just don't do crime and get familiar with local laws before you enter a country.

 

But the courts are quite relaxed, and they usually allow of some insults to politicians, because it's part of politicians' job to have a thick skin.

 

When I visited the US, I had to prepare and learn many things: what to say to the border control, that if I'm stopped by road police I better keep my hands on the wheel and visible, that I must keep alcohol bottles in trunk when driving, and cover a bottle with a paper bag if drinking in public. That I must not say the Russian word "книга"("book") in public. Those feel ridiculous, but I accepted and prepared as a guest. Same with Germany.

 

The American populists, including the current ruling class, love to compare rules like that with other countries and imply that it is something bad.

You are missing my point, in Europe free speech is limited, in the US, not really.  Check out Paivi Rasanen case in Finland.  Oh, and it's bullshit that you cannot say kniga in the US.  It is a not a crime.  I say it all the time in public to my kids.  You were told not to say it because blacks might not hear the first letter and get offended.  That's different from the government punishing you for it.  

[Loss Horizon]

39 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

You are missing my point, in Europe free speech is limited, in the US, not really.  Check out Paivi Rasanen case in Finland.  Oh, and it's bullshit that you cannot say kniga in the US.  It is a not a crime.  I say it all the time in public to my kids.  You were told not to say it because blacks might not hear the first letter and get offended.  That's different from the government punishing you for it.  

 

What exactly I'm missing? I just wrote a lot of text about that.

 

I checked this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/26/finnish-mp-paivi-rasanen-convicted-homosexuality-developmental-disorder

 

That's what I'm talking about. There is a long standing law in question, and "the US-based conservative legal advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom, which has tried to use her case as an example of censorship in Europe" is upset about something happening in another country with different rules.

Edited yesterday at 03:24 AM by Loss Horizon

[Marco Van Basten]

11 hours ago, Loss Horizon said:

 

What exactly I'm missing? I just wrote a lot of text about that.

 

I checked this: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/mar/26/finnish-mp-paivi-rasanen-convicted-homosexuality-developmental-disorder

 

That's what I'm talking about. There is a long standing law in question, and "the US-based conservative legal advocacy group Alliance Defending Freedom, which has tried to use her case as an example of censorship in Europe" is upset about something happening in another country with different rules.

The point is that there is no freedom of speech in Europe 

[Loss Horizon]

2 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said:

The point is that there is no freedom of speech in Europe 

 

I can see why populists in the West have such an easy time. People have it so good for so long that they forgot what really oppressive censorship looks like.

 

It's same argument as the US has no freedom and no liberty because you can't drink beer from a bottle in public.

Edited 21 hours ago by Loss Horizon

[Marco Van Basten]

15 minutes ago, Loss Horizon said:

 

I can see why populists in the West have such an easy time. People have it so good for so long that they forgot what really oppressive censorship looks like.

 

It's same argument as the US has no freedom and no liberty because you can't drink beer from a bottle in public.

I lived in the USSR, so don't give that bullshit.  There is a difference between rules on conduct which every society has and  rules on speech, which not every society has.  

[John Hjorth]

21 minutes ago, Marco Van Basten said:

I lived in the USSR, so don't give that bullshit.  There is a difference between rules on conduct which every society has and  rules on speech, which not every society has.  

 

It doesen't matter here that you've lived in USSR, what matters here is you don't by now live here in Europe, with that said, to the contrary of @Loss Horizon [, also from USSR], if you have read all @Loss Horizons posts [, which I have].

[Loss Horizon]

3 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said:

I lived in the USSR, so don't give that bullshit.  There is a difference between rules on conduct which every society has and  rules on speech, which not every society has.  

 

Speech is conduct, which is obvious even in the US: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_free_speech_exceptions

[Loss Horizon]

In USSR/Russia, many people do love local censorship and live in peace with it. It's just never called "censorship". Many are thrown to jail for "terrorism", "extremism", being a "foreign agent", "mentally ill", which sounds just right for the majority. Most convictions for speech have zero public awareness, because the government controls 100% of mass media.

 

And the same media love to discuss "censorship" in Europe, because everything is transparent in Europe. That's why "bad" Europe "doesn't have free speech".

[Dalal.Holdings]

On 7/1/2026 at 9:46 PM, Loss Horizon said:

 

Nothing? In Germany, some people who say this are literally in the parliament.

 

Btw, who promised free speech in the first place? In Germany it is clearly limited by federal laws. For example, insulting somebody is a crime, as it in the law for long time already. Quoting the Nazis is also a crime. Just don't do crime and get familiar with local laws before you enter a country.

 

But the courts are quite relaxed, and they usually allow of some insults to politicians, because it's part of politicians' job to have a thick skin.

 

When I visited the US, I had to prepare and learn many things: what to say to the border control, that if I'm stopped by road police I better keep my hands on the wheel and visible, that I must keep alcohol bottles in trunk when driving, and cover a bottle with a paper bag if drinking in public. That I must not say the Russian word "книга"("book") in public. Those feel ridiculous, but I accepted and prepared as a guest. Same with Germany.

 

The American populists, including the current ruling class, love to compare rules like that with other countries and imply that it is something bad.

It really is quite amazing how folks rationalize laws where it is *illegal* to insult politicians. Knowing German history, they might have benefitted from allowing politicians to be insulted.

 

Having laws against criticizing politicians is extremely un-democratic.

 

Europe is not transparent.

 

You asked “who promised Free Speech in the first place”? My answer: European/German leaders like Ursula. LOL. You come off as totally wrong because Free Speech has been a platitude of European leaders for a long time.

 

In many ways it’s 1984-esque where they claim to champion things like Freedom of Speech and Democracy while doing the exact opposite (your post proves my point):

 

 

“War is Peace” “Ignorance is Strength” etc etc

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

https://www.dw.com/en/germany-could-scrap-law-banning-insults-against-politicians/a-77630055

 

Hot off the presses. Germany might actually become more of a democracy. Germans are notoriously slow at making changes though so it might never happen.

 

 

 

Quote

“Germany's special law prohibiting the insulting of politicians has led to cases that many people consider absurd. Some members of the government want to abolish the law; others think there's a good reason to retain it.”

“private citizens found themselves under investigation by the police for publicly calling politicians "Schwachkopf" (idiot), "Lügenfritz" (lying Fritz) or "Pinocchio" on social media.”

 

https://v4na.com/politika/retired-woman-fined-for-politician-caricature-153202/

 

Quote

A 67-year-old retired woman from Bavaria has been fined €800 for "insulting" a public official after carrying a sign featuring a caricature of Prime Minister Markus Söder.

 

https://sfg.media/en/a/germany-merz-insults-300-cases-court-disclosure/

 

Quote

In Germany, Around 300 Cases Over Insults Against Friedrich Merz Are Under Investigation 

Court Orders Authorities to Disclose Their Scale After Refusal to Provide Information

 

 

Calling a politician an idiot is illegal in Germany and Ursula is preaching about Freedom of Speech? LMAO

 

We all know from history that the Chancellor of Germany ought to be immune from insults, right?

 

 

Edited 2 hours ago by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

15 hours ago, Loss Horizon said:

And the same media love to discuss "censorship" in Europe, because everything is transparent in Europe. That's why "bad" Europe "doesn't have free speech".

Europe is so "transparent" that this picture is illegal in Germany:

 

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/us-diplomat-attacks-eu-germany-over-investigation-against-man-who-called-friedrich-merz-pinocchio/

 

Quote

 

A senior U.S. diplomat blasted German authorities over a police investigation into a retired man who referred to Chancellor Friedrich Merz as “Pinocchio.”

 

[Dalal.Holdings]

19 hours ago, Marco Van Basten said:

I lived in the USSR, so don't give that bullshit.  There is a difference between rules on conduct which every society has and  rules on speech, which not every society has.  

Yep--and not being able to criticize the people in power is a hallmark of autocracies, not democracies.

[John Hjorth]

1 minute ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

Europe is so "transparent" that this picture is illegal in Germany ...

 

Just the usual 'one specific unsatisfacty thing'that you don't like for a specific European country [where you don't live, so it not in in any way is up to you, and your business at all], and then you carry on with your eternal generalizations about blowing up - ungrounded - on Europe as a whole.

 

It's mind boggling to experience this kind of 'logic' here on CofB&F.

[cubsfan]

You clearly do NOT have "Free Speech" if you can  not criticize politicians. Period.

[Charlie]

 

 

AI´s answer if Europe has free speech:

 

Yes, free speech is a fundamental right in Europe. European laws and the Charter of Fundamental Rights protect your right to hold opinions and share information without government interference. However, the European approach differs significantly from the US model. 

 

Unlike the near-absolute protections in the US, European free speech has strict legal limitations. In countries like Germany, for instance, freedom of expression (protected under Article 5 of the Basic Law) is balanced against other rights and public safety. 

 

Key differences in European free speech include:

• Hate Speech & Discrimination: Incitement to hatred, violence, or insults based on race, religion, or sexual orientation are criminal offenses. 
   
• Historical Taboos: In Germany and several other nations, Holocaust denial and the display of unconstitutional symbols (like Nazi insignia) are strictly prohibited and punishable by imprisonment. 
   
• Online Regulation: Under the EU's Digital Services Act, large social media platforms are legally required to swiftly remove flagged hate speech and illegal content. 

While you are entirely free to criticize politicians, participate in protests, and share your beliefs, you must navigate these specific legal boundaries regarding hate speech and public endangerment.

[Sweet]

11 minutes ago, Charlie said:

 

 

 

AI´s answer if Europe has free speech:

 

Yes, free speech is a fundamental right in Europe. European laws and the Charter of Fundamental Rights protect your right to hold opinions and share information without government interference. However, the European approach differs significantly from the US model. 

 

Unlike the near-absolute protections in the US, European free speech has strict legal limitations. In countries like Germany, for instance, freedom of expression (protected under Article 5 of the Basic Law) is balanced against other rights and public safety. 

 

Key differences in European free speech include:

 

• Hate Speech & Discrimination: Incitement to hatred, violence, or insults based on race, religion, or sexual orientation are criminal offenses. 
   
• Historical Taboos: In Germany and several other nations, Holocaust denial and the display of unconstitutional symbols (like Nazi insignia) are strictly prohibited and punishable by imprisonment. 
   
• Online Regulation: Under the EU's Digital Services Act, large social media platforms are legally required to swiftly remove flagged hate speech and illegal content. 

While you are entirely free to criticize politicians, participate in protests, and share your beliefs, you must navigate these specific legal boundaries regarding hate speech and public endangerment.

That’s good on paper but in practise it really hurts free speech.  What people regarding as insulting or hateful differs dramatically.  Some consider talk or stopping immigration hateful for example.

 

Edited 54 minutes ago by Sweet

[Dalal.Holdings]

55 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

Just the usual 'one specific unsatisfacty thing'that you don't like for a specific European country [where you don't live, so it not in in any way is up to you, and your business at all], and then you carry on with your eternal generalizations about blowing up - ungrounded - on Europe as a whole.

 

It's mind boggling to experience this kind of 'logic' here on CofB&F.

LOL. You literally cannot criticize people in power and old retirees are under investigation for calling politicians "idiot" and "Pinocchio" and you are calling it "one specific unsatisfactory thing" when I point out that this occurs while European leaders literally say "Freedom of speech is the foundation of our strong and vibrant European democracy".

 

You are just someone who is easily offended and can't come up with any real arguments.