Russia-Ukrainian War

[no_free_lunch]

I call it like I see it.  These accounts continue to take the side of Russia in an invasion that involves: rape , murder, torture and with the underlying motive of genocide of Ukraine as a cultural unit.  It's subtle but that's what I see.  "Oh I am not backing Russia, I am just saying..."  Yeah right.

[Xerxes]

@no_free_lunch
you are sounding more and more like a Western teenager overexcited by war. Or should I say you are being “selective” in terms of what wars of aggression excites you to the point of hysteria and which ones doesn’t. Hint: It excites you if the victim are white people, and you couldn’t care less otherwise. Nope you don’t say it, but it is all subtle in between the words. And you are not the only one. 

 

I must be the only one on this board that actually lived in a country at war, where the aggressor was backed by all Western  major powers, where cities were burned, people were raped, families were destroyed, infrastructure was destroyed, where WMD was used  …. For 8 years ! So forgive me, if I am not as naive and stupid as you are.   
 

Given these last comments from you, me and you will have nothing else to discuss. I don’t have time for the likes of you.  

But just to close on this last point, understand however that political powwow and reality on the ground are not the same. George Bush declared mission accomplished in 2003, only to order a major Surge in 2008. Hence my comment of me not caring about Kremlin says. You want your enemy to remain stupid. An enemy that can make a decision to withdraw (as oppose to hold out) is one that acting more rationally and one that is less stupid. And yes independently of whatever Kremlin says about annexation and Kherson forever etc. 
 

 

 

[no_free_lunch]

Which side has been calling for Ukraine to surrender and saying Russia has the upper hand for the past 6 months.  Not me, so which of us is stupid now?  By the way, I never called you names, I just told you what your position made you, the proponent of slaughter of Ukrainians.

 

I back Ukraine as it's the right thing to do, because they face annihilation. If Russia wins there it's not going to be good for Canada so it's also in my most selfish interest.  In the middle east for sure i back the Iranian protesters, at least symbolically but what can we do?  The one Iranian I know says something like, it's more complicated than you realize and it's none of your business and to stay out.  Ukraine is not saying to stay out.  I don't see the moral conflict there at all.

[Spekulatius]

3 hours ago, Dinar said:

Exactly when did Xerxes backed genocide?   

Just because there is a war in Ukraine does not mean there needs to be a war in COBF.

[Dinar]

4 hours ago, no_free_lunch said:

I call it like I see it.  These accounts continue to take the side of Russia in an invasion that involves: rape , murder, torture and with the underlying motive of genocide of Ukraine as a cultural unit.  It's subtle but that's what I see.  "Oh I am not backing Russia, I am just saying..."  Yeah right.

You keep throwing words like genocide, annihilation, etc... You accused me of being a proponent of slaughter of Ukrainians, when all I said was the war needs to stop asap.  If you provide your name rather than hide behind a screen name, I will sue you for defamation, although an apology will suffice.  I have nothing against Ukrainians, three of my four grandparents were born there, my wife was born in Kiev, and we have donated to substantial funds to help Ukrainian refugees.   Is it really in Ukraine's interest for the war to last?   More deaths, crippled people and destruction.  As for genocide, I would suggest that Ukrainians cannot throw stones.  Remember Stepan Bandera and UPA?  Care to recall how many Poles and Jews he and his henchmen murdered?  A national hero of Ukraine.  

[scorpioncapital]

how many people did americans, canadians , australians , spanish murder taking over those lands?

and we dare to speak of Russia taking over Ukraine?

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by scorpioncapital

[Spekulatius]

1 hour ago, scorpioncapital said:

how many people did americans, canadians , australians , spanish murder taking over those lands?

and we dare to speak of Russia taking over Ukraine?

 

 

So injustice in those cases which occurred hundred of years ago justifies doing nothing to injustice and attempt of genocide now?

 

Like, we didn’t help Aborigines against the Australian colonizers 150 years ago and that’s why we need to stay put when Russia tries to colonize Ukraine now? That makes no sense to me.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Spekulatius

[Xerxes]

@Spekulatius

 

Spek,

 

firstly I don’t think anyone is saying that. In fact I don’t even think anyone has said they should get zero support.
 

Of course people having conversation in this thread to which degree there ought to be support (and consequences of). And those very same conversation are happening in the White House or other forums in the past six months. Doesn’t mean you can go around label people genocidle. 

secondly, you (and I don’t mean you personally, so pls take no offence) cannot choose when it is convenient for you to give damn about victims. And when put on your “airplane mode” on, and look the other way, because it is an inconvenience and you cannot be bothered. There is nothing cool about wars, genocides, that people should chose one set of circumstances over others. 
 

thirdly, unfortunately every genocide looks like a line or a paragraph in history books 100 years later. You are right in your comment about a genocide 150 years is no excuse to stand idly by. And those poor aboriginal people were probably saying/thinking the same thing even as they got hacked down (anyways) by the white colonizer. Everything is relative. We may have the a good excuse to help install Pinochet as a dictator in Chile, because Cold War, fighting communism etc, but surely the Chilean didn’t see it like that at the time, and said “WTF”. The Indians that got massacred by the Portuguese as the latter were building their commercial network in the Indian Ocean probably said: “WTF i thought we were pass this. This the fifteenth century for Christ sake !!!”. In 1991-92, after the Gulf War, Bush Senior got the Iraqis and the Kurds to rise up against Saddam, from north and south, only to let Saddam massacre them, so that the centre of power is preserved. What about that genocide and the enablers behind it  ? Was there a forum thread on that ? Or there geopolitics trumped everything else. 
 

Everyone relative point of view of “oh we don’t do that anymore. We are in a civilized age”, is built on the skulls and bones of the last genocide. Once we are done with genocide, we declare the beginning of a new civilized age, built out historical monument and accuse another party that is trying to crash our party. 

Lastly, I think tribalism has now taken over this thread. I say this about the fall of Kherson. Happy that it happened on Nov 11. 
 

[no_free_lunch]

16 hours ago, scorpioncapital said:

how many people did americans, canadians , australians , spanish murder taking over those lands?

and we dare to speak of Russia taking over Ukraine?

 

 

 

So let's break this down, it's now widely considered that what happened in North America to the aboriginals was some type of genocide.  So my opinion, by making that link to Ukraine you are suggesting that there is a similar type of genocide there and that we should ignore it.

 

This is the thing Dinar, maybe not you specifically but in my opinion people ARE aware of genocide (as the term is now used, not trying to link to something like the holocaust) and they are saying we should ignore it.

Edited November 12, 2022 by no_free_lunch

[Dinar]

4 hours ago, no_free_lunch said:

 

So let's break this down, it's now widely considered that what happened in North America to the aboriginals was some type of genocide.  So my opinion, by making that link to Ukraine you are suggesting that there is a similar type of genocide there and that we should ignore it.

 

This is the thing Dinar, maybe not you specifically but in my opinion people ARE aware of genocide (as the term is now used, not trying to link to something like the holocaust) and they are saying we should ignore it.

You asked why.  So here is a view that many Russians express and frankly, I cannot argue with the logic, although I find it morally wrong.  

 Stepan Bandera is a national hero of Ukraine, with numerous statues in cities like Lviv, and many streets named after him.  This national hero and his men murdered hundreds of thousands of Polish and Jewish civilians in the 20th century.  So clearly Ukrainian people consider genocide something admirable, so why do you get worked up if it happens to them?  They clearly think it is wonderful!    But for a people who consider mass murder to be admirable when they do it to Jews or Poles but a tragedy when it happens to them, well, I am sorry, but this is a pot calling the kettle black or karma.  

 

Again, this is not my personal view, and I do not hold grandchildren responsible for the sins of their grandfathers, but I would like grandchildren to acknowledge that mass murder is wrong, even if it is done by their grandfathers.

Edited November 12, 2022 by Dinar

[Xerxes]

Thanks @Dinar

 

Goes to show how much we don’t know on this side of the pond. And even perhaps in Europe as well.
 

I don’t know about all other posters in this thread but I for one am unaware of these subtleties. If it doesn’t make it to BBC, CNN or The Simpson, it is not real. (sarcasm)

 

 

Edited November 12, 2022 by Xerxes

[Xerxes]

WooooOpps

 

i forgot to attach the disclaimer to my previous post:   ……. but it does not justify the war that Kremlin is waging. 
 

Must not forget the disclaimer in this thread. 

[no_free_lunch]

If we are going to talk USSR, here is what they did back in the 30s:

 

Quote

The Holodomor (Ukrainian: Голодомо́р, romanized: Holodomor, IPA: [ɦolodoˈmɔr];^[2] derived from морити голодом, moryty holodom, 'to kill by starvation'),^[a][3][4][5] also known as the Terror-Famine^[6][7][8] or the Great Famine,^[9] was a man-made famine in Soviet Ukraine from 1932 to 1933 that killed millions of Ukrainians. The Holodomor famine was part of the wider Soviet famine of 1932–1933 which affected the major grain-producing areas of the country.^[10]

^..

A joint statement to the United Nations signed by 25 countries in 2003 declared that 7–10 million died.^[20][21] However, current scholarship estimates a range significantly lower, with 3.5 to 5 million victims.^{[22][23][24][25][26]} The famine's widespread impact on Ukraine persists to this day.^[22]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

 

Here is how well they treated the poles.  Remember that the USSR initially sided with Nazi germany, only switching sides when attacked.

 

 

Quote

The invasion of Poland (1 September – 6 October 1939) was a joint attack on the Republic of Poland by Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union which marked the beginning of World War II.^[1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

 

Annihilation of Polish officers after the war.

 

Quote

The Katyn massacre^[a] was a series of mass executions of nearly 22,000 Polish military officers and intelligentsia prisoners of war carried out by the Soviet Union, specifically the NKVD ("People's Commissariat for Internal Affairs", the Soviet secret police) in April and May 1940. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

That's all the history. If you think genocide are too strong of terms, this is what they are up against.

Edited November 12, 2022 by no_free_lunch

[Dinar]

1 hour ago, no_free_lunch said:

If we are going to talk USSR, here is what they did back in the 30s:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holodomor

 

Here is how well they treated the poles.  Remember that the USSR initially sided with Nazi germany, only switching sides when attacked.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_of_Poland

 

Annihilation of Polish officers after the war.

 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katyn_massacre

 

That's all the history. If you think genocide are too strong of terms, this is what they are up against.

I know history, none of this is new to me.  Russia is not USSR, Communism and Nazism are two sides of the same coin. 

 

I am sorry, but what's your point?  

 

Does any of this justify what Bandera and his men did?   Ukraine clearly considers genocide admirable when victims are Poles and Jews, so why are they surprised if Russians adopt a tactic that Ukraine considers praiseworthy?  You do not say a word about these men, do you consider them heroes?

 

 

My point is three fold:

 

a) I would not call this genocide - yes, killing one civilian is a tragedy, and probably hundreds of Ukrainian civilians have died, but to call this a genocide would be a stretch.  This is not a plan to wipeout Ukrainian people, who sadly are doing it successfully themselves (look at Ukrainian demographics - if I am not mistaken, the number of 5 year olds was down 25% in 2020 vs 1989 in Ukraine).

 I am thankfully not aware of Dresden/Tokyo fire raid type bombardment of Lviv for instance.  If Putin's plan was to commit genocide, surely we would have gotten this type of attack by now, no?

 

b) People that think that Stepan Bandera and Roman-Taras Yosypovych Shukhevych deserve statues rather than infamy along the lines of Hitler forfeit a right to complain about genocide.   

 

c) People everywhere usually act in their own self interest.  When individuals act in a righteous manner, that's a cause for celebration, when nations act this way, it is incredible.  Nobody owns Ukraine anything, and it is NOT in the interest of the US or Europe to support Ukraine.  This support will go away at some point, the question is how quickly?  It is in the interest of Ukraine to settle things with Russia before the West pulls support.  

 

I wish that the war would end as soon as possible.  I think that it is in the interest of both Ukraine and Russia, as well as US and Europe that it ends asap.   The only ones who gain are the Chinese, the Indians, and the Iranian regime.   

 

I am very sorry for the Ukrainians.  

{I have three grandparents from Ukraine, my wife is from Kiev, my best friend is from Kiev (and his grandmother is still there), I still have an aunt and cousin in Ukraine.  My wife and donated significant amount of money to Ukrainian refugees, and so did my parents and in-laws. }

 

I will not debate your further.  You are acting very emotionally, and I have no desire to stress you out further.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[UK]

1 hour ago, Dinar said:

c) People everywhere usually act in their own self interest.  When individuals act in a righteous manner, that's a cause for celebration, when nations act this way, it is incredible.  Nobody owns Ukraine anything, and it is NOT in the interest of the US or Europe to support Ukraine.  This support will go away at some point, the question is how quickly?  It is in the interest of Ukraine to settle things with Russia before the West pulls support.  

 

I wish that the war would end as soon as possible.  I think that it is in the interest of both Ukraine and Russia, as well as US and Europe that it ends asap.   The only ones who gain are the Chinese, the Indians, and the Iranian regime.   

 

Why do you think it is not in the interest of US or west to support Ukraine? Given ukrainian will and at this time proven ability to fight isnnt it a very good opportunity (not with you own soldiers) to push back, weaken and contain if not change Russia even more? Also, I am not sure about any obligations to Ukraine, but I thought there were some security guarantees for them after they agreed to give uo nuclear weapons? Also, if this pushback will succed (sofar it seems it could?), donnt you think it would show something to China too? I actually believe that US and west almost cannot aford not to support Ukraine and it would be a huge failure not to do this, unlees you want allow Russian regime to do as they want in Europe and China in Taiwan/south asia. I am not debating who is right or wrong, moral or not, but just from this longer term or great power strugle perspective, why would US not see this as an very good opportunity? And I agree that ending all this asap would be great, but how do can you end a war, when part of your territories are still occupied by an enemy? Maybe sollution at this stage, if you want everything to end asap, is more support (more Himars, tanks etc to Ukraine), not less? What good it will do if you stop everything for a one ore two years and provide opportunity for russian forces to regain strenght?

 

 

Edited November 13, 2022 by UK

[Dinar]

22 minutes ago, UK said:

 

Why do you think it is not in the interest of US or west to support Ukraine? Given ukrainian will and at this time proven ability to fight isnnt it a very good opportunity (not with you own soldiers) to push back, weaken and contain if not change Russia even more? Also, I am not sure about any obligations to Ukraine, but I thought there were some security guarantees for them after they agreed to give uo nuclear weapons? Also, if this pushback will succed (sofar it seems it could?), donnt you think it would show something to China too? I actually believe that US and west almost cannot aford not to support Ukraine and it would be a huge failure not to do this, unlees you want allow Russian regime to do as they want in Europe and China in Taiwan/south asia. I am not debating who is right or wrong, moral or not, but just from this longer term or great power strugle perspective, why would US not see this as an very good opportunity? And I agree that ending all this asap would be great, but how do can you end a war, when part of your territories are still occupied by an enemy? Maybe sollution at this stage, if you want everything to end asap, is more support (more Himars, tanks etc to Ukraine), not less? What good it will do if you stop everything for a one ore two years and provide opportunity for russian forces to regain strenght?

 

 

So I am not suggesting that Ukraine gives up the territory that Russia seized in 2022, reading  Putin's speeches, it seems to me that he is looking for a way out, so perhaps (and I have no special insight), an agreement that Ukraine does not enter NATO would allow Putin to claim victory, and for Russian troops to depart.   (I doubt Ukraine will be able to get territories seized prior to 2022 until Putin passes and a normal successor comes and a genuine referendum is done there.  I would be shocked however if Crimea was ever returned.  It was part of Russian Empire for centuries and was transferred from Russian Federation to Ukraine in 1954 by Khruschev (ethnic Ukrainian) as a gift to commemorate 300 year anniversary of Russia+Ukraine union.  )

 

I think that the biggest threat to the US/Western Europe is China, followed by Iran and Islamic terrorism.   My guess is that Iran will no longer be a threat in say 5 or 10 years since I assume that its clerical regime will be gone.  Persia was a very accomplished civilization centuries before Christ.  

 

Since I believe that China is the biggest threat to the US/Western Europe, I would like to see a strong Russia as a counterweight to China (remember Nixon went to China to use China as a counterweight to USSR.)  Weak Russia that is dependent on China and Iran is not in our interests.   Nuclear & strategic missile technology in the hands of Iranian clerics is not a good thing in my opinion.  

 

 

 

If I am not mistaken, you are referring to the security guarantees given by countries including China to Ukraine when it gave up nukes.   I do not remember the agreement well, but are Germany/Poland/Italy on the hook as well?  

[Viking]

The interesting part of the Ukraine war the past 2-3 months is the success the Ukrainian army is having reclaiming significant chunks territory back from Russia. Complete shocker for me. My guess is if Ukraine does not take the territory back by force then it will be permanently gone. Russia has already made a legal claim to large swaths of Ukraine. And Putin desperately wants Odessa. So the war will continue because the Russian bear is still hungry for more.  
—————

My guess is Putin is playing the long game (years of war) and counting on the West losing interest at some point a year or two from now. Putin understands his adversary well. Perhaps this is why Ukraine is taking more of an offensive approach the last few months. Ukraine realizes popular/public opinion in the West can be fickle so time is not on its side. 
—————

My guess is Crimea is gone. I would be shocked if Ukraine aggressively went in to Crimea. Unless to use it as leverage to get the rest of its territory back.

———-—-

Hard to see how this ends unless

1.) Ukraine gives Russia mostly what Russia wants… starting with all the territory it has already claimed. 

2.) Ukraine takes it back by force. 
Not much of a middle ground. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Viking

[Xerxes]

The middle ground is hard to see, because US like a central banker that is distorting the markets, is distorting the longevity of that conflict via unprecedented military aid. I.e. fighting Russia to the last Ukrainian or the last Russian. Whichever comes first, we don’t care. Of course corruption in Russia’ military and years of mismanagement helped as well.

 

If I am Zelensky, and have goodwill of the world, and a population eager to fight and flow of military aids as someone else expenses, do you think I am looking for a settlement ?
 

Biden says “no decision about Ukraine without Ukraine”. That is a cute statement. But Biden was making decisions about Ukraine without Ukraine all the way to the eve of the war. What changed is the carte Blanche that he has given that is making it difficult for him to retract. No one dares arguing with Zelensky, or he is going to raise the “G” word and shame you. He even pushed back on TotalEnergies who was scheduled to receive dividends from a now-closed JV saying that it ought to go to Ukraine.  
 

Make no mistake folks. Everything has a consequence. It is good what we have done so far in terms of aid etc but if you are not thinking/talking through backchannels, you OUGHT to be. 
 

I understand the fairy tale aspect of this conflict, but this is no fuc&&ing cartoon nor it is Star Wars, where “rebels overthrow the evil empire” nor its the “300 Spartans fighting the armies of Xerxes”.

At some point one way or another Putin will be gone, but most likely old age, and from his power-base the next leader will emerge and he may be younger, more energetic and full of ideas and be a hardcore nationalist, bent on revenge ! 
 

Consider this :  for decades following WW2 all that White House could see was a giant sea of Red stretching across the Eurasian mass lands with its very centre in the Kremlin. 
 

The White House was so deep into that Global Red menace thinking that they even feared an invasion by Chinese “volunteers” if they (US) were to invade North Vietnam (recall most of fighting was in the south, north Vietnam was bombed via B-52s). Why ? Because that is what happened in Korea, when they got closed to the Yalu river. Never mind that there was a very deep cultural chasm that existed between Chinese and Vietnamese that would have made that scenario extremely low probability. Never mind that Vietnam was NOT part of China’ red sphere (as North Korea was) but was part of Soviet’ red sphere and even at that was pretty autonomous. And the Chinese counterweight to Red Vietnam was actually Pol Pot and Cambodia. And the two Reds even fought a war in late 70s and early 80s.  
 

So It never occurred to the White House, that sea of Red had different shades of Red until decades later with Kissinger and Nixon. And they successfully exploited those shades. 
 

Bottom line. Don’t get emotional about these things. There is always a bigger picture. 

 

[no_free_lunch]

To the claim of Ukraine supporting anti jewish, anti polish sentiments, the proof against is looking at reality.  The president of Ukraine is.. Jewish.  Poland is one of Ukraine's greatest allies at the present time.   Many Ukrainian refugees go there and there is weapon transfer from Poland to Ukraine.

 

Just one example of what is happening on the ground.  This stuff will only accelerate.

 

Quote

Thousands of Ukrainian children reportedly have gone missing since the start of the war on Feb. 24. A growing body of evidence suggests that some of these children have been forcibly taken to Russia. According to Ukrainian Permanent Representative to the U.N. Sergiy Kyslytsya, more than 234,000 children had been transferred to Russia by early June.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/14/ukraine-kidnaped-children-russia/

 

Xerxes, they will fight because of the above.  Yes, the future may be even more bleak and yes maybe death for all but better to die fighting I suppose.

[Dinar]

28 minutes ago, no_free_lunch said:

To the claim of Ukraine supporting anti jewish, anti polish sentiments, the proof against is looking at reality.  The president of Ukraine is.. Jewish.  Poland is one of Ukraine's greatest allies at the present time.   Many Ukrainian refugees go there and there is weapon transfer from Poland to Ukraine.

 

Just one example of what is happening on the ground.  This stuff will only accelerate.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2022/06/14/ukraine-kidnaped-children-russia/

 

Xerxes, they will fight because of the above.  Yes, the future may be even more bleak and yes maybe death for all but better to die fighting I suppose.

I get it, you think Bandera and company are wonderful, and murder of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews is fine.   I asked you several times point blank if you think Bandera should be a national hero of Ukraine, you never answered.  Your silence is answer enough.   

[Xerxes]

35 minutes ago, no_free_lunch said:

 

Xerxes, they will fight because of the above.  Yes, the future may be even more bleak and yes maybe death for all but better to die fighting I suppose.

Me and you both would have done the same as individuals. That is normal. 

 

That said I cannot comment too much on the back history of polish, Jewish massacres in Ukraine simply because I am not from there, nor studied the country in any particular depth and am missing a fair amount of subtleties. The country seem to be a very diverse federation with different extremes. My interest has always been global affairs and I will happily admit that I am pretty ignorant on individual country histories. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Xerxes

[no_free_lunch]

22 minutes ago, Dinar said:

I get it, you think Bandera and company are wonderful, and murder of hundreds of thousands of Poles and Jews is fine.   I asked you several times point blank if you think Bandera should be a national hero of Ukraine, you never answered.  Your silence is answer enough.   

 

I don't think of Bandera as wonderful as he joined the Nazi cause.  The Nazi's were horrible for Ukraine and labeled them as sub-human and fit for murder (of those deemed racially inferior) and enslavement of what was deemed the better half. 

 

Now that we are talking, I don't really care what you think but do Russian's view Stalin as "wonderful"?  He was after all one of the greatest mass murderers of the 20th century.  Not just a rhetorical question, it has direct bearing on Ukraine because of the genocide of Holodomor.

 

Quote

In May 2021, 56 percent of Russians polled by the independent Levada Center agreed that Stalin was a “great leader”—double the figure in 2016, when the Stalinization of mass consciousness had already been a clear trend for several years.

 

https://carnegiemoscow.org/commentary/84991

 

You all can call me emotional but I will suggest you cannot understand Ukaine, the rationale for fighting, without understanding Holodomor and the potential for a second version (it is Russia after all) if they lose this war.

Edited November 13, 2022 by no_free_lunch

[Spekulatius]

A quick look in Wikipedia marks Bandera as a controversial figure rather than a hero for Ukrainians.

 

Anyways, the Genozide attribute is a slippery slope, but we do know that the state goal for the Russians is de-nazification of the Ukraine and then there is stuff like this as well as mass graves Bucha , Lyman etc. We have yet to see the carnage that has a occurred amongst civilians In Mariopol which I think will be quite shocking:

Maybe it’s all fake news, but my bet is that it’s close to the truth.

 

As for military objectives, Crimea will likely fall, when Ukraine can severe the land bridge. If the Russians can hold it, it will remain Russian.

Edited November 13, 2022 by Spekulatius

[Xerxes]

Controversial indeed. This is from 2021. Rarely do these things make it across the pond into the mainstream Western media or The Simpsons for that matter. Almost as if we are being spoon fed in terms what we need to know.  

 

https://www.euronews.com/my-europe/amp/2021/08/04/controversy-as-ukraine-mulls-giving-hero-status-to-alleged-war-criminals

“ Seventy-eight Ukrainian lawmakers from all sides of the parliament have proposed to give the title ‘Hero of Ukraine’ to controversial figures such as Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych.”

 

“The Ukrainian parliament will now consider the proposal, which is expected to meet fierce reactions from Poland and Israel if adopted.

Bandera was named ‘Hero of Ukraine’ back in 2010 by outgoing president Viktor Yushchenko, which sparked protests from Poland and Israel before Bandera was stripped of the status again in 2011.”

 

From Wiki:

 

”In 2008, the massacres which were committed by the Ukrainian nationalists against the Poles in Volhynia and Galicia were described by Poland's Institute of National Remembrance as bearing the distinct characteristics of a genocide,^[14][15] and on 22 July 2016, the Parliament of Poland passed a resolution recognizing the massacres as genocide.^[16][17] This classification is disputed by Ukraine and some non-Polish historians.”

 

Anyways, I believe we also committed some genocide against the locals as we built our country here in North America. And have been slow to recognize it from what I gather. 
 

I ll happily admit that I am not exactly up-to-date on this stuff. 

Edited November 13, 2022 by Xerxes

[changegonnacome]

9 hours ago, Viking said:

Putin understands his adversary well. Perhaps this is why Ukraine is taking more of an offensive approach the last few months. Ukraine realizes popular/public opinion in the West can be fickle so time is not on its side. 

 

He sure does......from talking to friends/family in Europe.....they'll do this winter getting squeezed on energy bills in support of Ukraine......but not a second.........I expect once surpluses turn to deficits in the US....and the deficit starts to matter again & with the Republican's in control of the house (investigating Hunter Biden & finding out all the corruption with him/Ukrainian) the narrative is gonna shift to why are we spending so much scarce money over there.

 

Ukraine would be wise to push as hard as they can now with Russians on the back foot and their friends in the West still full throated in their support.