Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[cubsfan]

2 minutes ago, Luke said:

Right now i think there is just shock and disbelief. All the ukraine drumming since 3 years suddenly stops when Trump took office. Europe is already FAR behind the US and China in technology and infrastructure investment, if they now decide to invest trillions into this war then thats great for the US and China. Europe wont be any significant competitor anytime soon and soon will face the same bitter situation selensky faces now.

 

Zelensky tried to wait Trump out. He hoped Kamala would win. So did Europe.

 

But their worst nightmare was losing the Presidency, Senate & House.

 

Now the tough decisions are forced on them after 3 years (well 2 really) of cheerleading 

Ukraine on a war they would inevitably lose.

[LC]

4 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Actually, that's a wonderful idea. Why hasn't Europe done it?

 

Because Trump doesn't know how to negotiate. Not even that - when he does, everyone knows he is liar who doesn't negotiate in good faith and frequently reneges on his promises. 

 

Imagine if Trump said, "OK lets get these middle easterners and africans to fight for Ukraine/Europe and post-war Ukraine takes 50% of these soldiers, Europe takes 35%, and USA takes 15%"

 

Then to sweeten the deal he makes some nonsense climate agreement with Europe due in 2050 to support clean air blah blah blah and gets (f)Elon to make some solar charged rocket ship trinkets and help European energy independence vs Russia. European leadership will eat it up.

[Ulti]

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/least-now-we-know-truth-about-trump-and-vance/681872/

[cubsfan]

1 minute ago, LC said:

 

Because Trump doesn't know how to negotiate. Not even that - when he does, everyone knows he is liar who doesn't negotiate in good faith and frequently reneges on his promises. 

 

Imagine if Trump said, "OK lets get these middle easterners and africans to fight for Ukraine/Europe and post-war Ukraine takes 50% of these soldiers, Europe takes 35%, and USA takes 15%"

 

Then to sweeten the deal he makes some nonsense climate agreement with Europe due in 2050 to support clean air blah blah blah and gets (f)Elon to make some solar charged rocket ship trinkets and help European energy independence vs Russia. European leadership will eat it up.

 

@LC - are you high again?

[Luke]

2 minutes ago, Ulti said:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2025/02/least-now-we-know-truth-about-trump-and-vance/681872/

Trump, he needed a way to prove that he had truly crossed over to the dark side beyond any possibility of reversion or redemption; perhaps his support for Russia allowed him to do that. But however shallow their motives, the consequences are profound.

 

I can not take this author seriously. This is not science fiction. There is no good and evil. There is no death star that Luke will destroy and the rebels win. This is making a horrible deal or a bad deal, thats how it is, not pretty, not amazing but thats reality.

[LC]

I mean jesus, what an opportunity for the US. 

 

Get other people to fight out battles - weaken Russia. Indirectly weaken China. Have Europe eating out of our hand. Have Ukraine as a pseudo US state which will buy munitions, allow US bases, etc. etc. Another NATO partner for US to control. Also help solve the migrant crisis from the ME and Africa. Get those ex-migrants to become EU/US citizens. Further wrest control of the ME and Africa away from China. 

 

It's a damn gold mine of a situation if Trumpf had half a brain. And what do we lose? Nothing! We sell a crapton of US-made munitions, we get real-world battlefield info, we give our $50 trillion army something to do and keep them battle-hardened or at least battle-informed. I mean it's got potential positives flowing out every orifice and meanwhile the best we get is JD Vance crying like a little girl. 

[Luke]

2 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

@LC - are you high again?

Yeah...i was also confused reading that LOL.

[LC]

3 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

@LC - are you high again?

 

Grow up.

[cubsfan]

Just now, LC said:

 

Grow up.

 

Yeah, sorry LC , your post was beyond ridiculous.

 

 

Then to sweeten the deal he makes some nonsense climate agreement with Europe due in 2050 to support clean air blah blah blah and gets (f)Elon to make some solar charged rocket ship trinkets and help European energy independence vs Russia. European leadership will eat it up.

[cubsfan]

3 minutes ago, Luke said:

Trump, he needed a way to prove that he had truly crossed over to the dark side beyond any possibility of reversion or redemption; perhaps his support for Russia allowed him to do that. But however shallow their motives, the consequences are profound.

 

I can not take this author seriously. This is not science fiction. There is no good and evil. There is no death star that Luke will destroy and the rebels win. This is making a horrible deal or a bad deal, thats how it is, not pretty, not amazing but thats reality.

 

Don't forget @Luke to the resistance - Trump is a Russian spy and asset, just like Tulsi Gabbard.

 

 

[cubsfan]

5 minutes ago, LC said:

I mean jesus, what an opportunity for the US. 

 

Get other people to fight out battles - weaken Russia. Indirectly weaken China. Have Europe eating out of our hand. Have Ukraine as a pseudo US state which will buy munitions, allow US bases, etc. etc. Another NATO partner for US to control. Also help solve the migrant crisis from the ME and Africa. Get those ex-migrants to become EU/US citizens. Further wrest control of the ME and Africa away from China. 

 

It's a damn gold mine of a situation if Trumpf had half a brain. And what do we lose? Nothing! We sell a crapton of US-made munitions, we get real-world battlefield info, we give our $50 trillion army something to do and keep them battle-hardened or at least battle-informed. I mean it's got potential positives flowing out every orifice and meanwhile the best we get is JD Vance crying like a little girl. 

 

 

You missed the big picture.

 

Europe handles Russia on the land and owns their own defense with "some" assistance from the USA.

 

The USA will handle the oceans - with a major focus on China.

 

It's called burden sharing.

[cubsfan]

10 minutes ago, LC said:

I mean jesus, what an opportunity for the US. 

 

Get other people to fight out battles - weaken Russia. Indirectly weaken China. Have Europe eating out of our hand. Have Ukraine as a pseudo US state which will buy munitions, allow US bases, etc. etc. Another NATO partner for US to control. Also help solve the migrant crisis from the ME and Africa. Get those ex-migrants to become EU/US citizens. Further wrest control of the ME and Africa away from China. 

 

It's a damn gold mine of a situation if Trumpf had half a brain. And what do we lose? Nothing! We sell a crapton of US-made munitions, we get real-world battlefield info, we give our $50 trillion army something to do and keep them battle-hardened or at least battle-informed. I mean it's got potential positives flowing out every orifice and meanwhile the best we get is JD Vance crying like a little girl. 

 

You left out the best part -  and millions of soldiers die - mostly Ukrainian & Europeans.

 

Let the war mongers celebrate.

[Sweet]

Wild exchange in front of the press.  Zelenskyy, rightly, couldn't sit there and listen to the bullshit.  'Not thankful' - bullshit.  '$350 bn in aid' - bullshit.  'Propaganda tour' - bullshit, and really quite a shameful comment.

 

For all the bullshit though, this is Europe's failing.  Defence spending should have been higher in European countries many years ago.  European defence was subsidised by American taxpayers all while Europeans looked down their nose at the Americans, ridiculing their culture, their lack of socialised health care... yada yada... on and on.  What a woeful bunch of politicians we have had leading us.

 

The party is over for Europe, I don't think Trump was an inevitably figure, but it was inevitable that the lack of defence spending would have consequences.  The only correct response from Europe is a massive increase in defence spending and support for Ukraine now.  Not next week.  Now.  Emergency summit tomorrow.  1 trillion debt raise for Ukraine defence... now.

 

And, there is a hard truth for Zelenskyy too, he isn't going to push the Russians out.  Negotiate he must, but he needs to be clever too.

 

The loser in the long term is probably America.  Congrats, you traded Europe, with 600 million people and a huge purchasing power and industrialised base for Russia.  Yeh the Europeans looked down their nose, wrongly, but this Putin guy, he hates America to his very core.

 

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Sweet

[cubsfan]

9 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Wild exchange in front of the press.  Zelenskyy, rightly, couldn't sit there and listen to the bullshit.  '$350 bn in aid' - bullshit.  'Propaganda tour' - bullshit, and really quite a shameful comment.

 

For all the bullshit though, this is Europe's failing.  Defence spending should have been higher in European countries many years ago.  European defence was subsidised by American taxpayers all while Europeans looked down their nose at the Americans, ridiculing their culture, their lack of socialised health care... yada yada... on and on.  What a woeful bunch of politicians we have had leading us.

 

The party is over for Europe, I don't think Trump was an inevitably figure, but it was inevitable that the lack of defence spending had to come to an end.  The only correct response from Europe is a massive increase in defence spending and support for Ukraine right now.

 

And, there is a hard truth for Zelenskyy too, he isn't going to push the Russians out.  Negotiate he must, but he needs to be clever too.

 

The loser in the long term is probably America.  Congrats, you traded Europe, with 750 million people and a huge purchasing power and industrialised base for Russia.  Yeh the Europeans looked down their nose, wrongly, but this Putin guy, hates America to his very core.

 

 

Yeah, thank you for being one of the few to speak the ugly truth about Europe for once.

 

Mending fences will not be easy.

Edited 5 hours ago by cubsfan

[Fly]

Imagine you are some other US allied country right now. Not exactly a warm and cozy feeling...

[cubsfan]

3 minutes ago, Fly said:

Imagine you are some other US allied country right now. Not exactly a warm and cozy feeling...

 

The limits were very clear during the Trump campaign.

 

But the allies have a vote - they can continue the killing as long as they like.

Their attitude may change when Ukraine runs out of men.

[tnathan]

8 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Wild exchange in front of the press.  Zelenskyy, rightly, couldn't sit there and listen to the bullshit.  'Not thankful' - bullshit.  '$350 bn in aid' - bullshit.  'Propaganda tour' - bullshit, and really quite a shameful comment.

 

For all the bullshit though, this is Europe's failing.  Defence spending should have been higher in European countries many years ago.  European defence was subsidised by American taxpayers all while Europeans looked down their nose at the Americans, ridiculing their culture, their lack of socialised health care... yada yada... on and on.  What a woeful bunch of politicians we have had leading us.

 

The party is over for Europe, I don't think Trump was an inevitably figure, but it was inevitable that the lack of defence spending would have consequences.  The only correct response from Europe is a massive increase in defence spending and support for Ukraine now.  Not next week.  Now.  Emergency summit tomorrow.  1 trillion debt raise for Ukraine defence... now.

 

And, there is a hard truth for Zelenskyy too, he isn't going to push the Russians out.  Negotiate he must, but he needs to be clever too.

 

The loser in the long term is probably America.  Congrats, you traded Europe, with 750 million people and a huge purchasing power and industrialised base for Russia.  Yeh the Europeans looked down their nose, wrongly, but this Putin guy, he hates America to his very core.

 

 

+ 1 -- we can hold two truths in our head at once. Europe messed up by being so behind on military readiness, but Putin is bad news and the fact that Trump has allied himself with Russia is legitimately one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Long term loser is the United States. If you look at most of the early Trump policies its getting a very short term victory at risk of long term ruin. It's the mark of am 80 IQ guy who thinks he's a 150 IQ guy.

[John Hjorth]

Mike [ @cubsfan ],

 

I think it was 1996 I did receive the monthly news script from The Association of Danish CPAs.

 

A Danish CPA had got into a quarrel with a client, that was not related to fees, and naturally in that situation had seeked greener grass elsewhere, thereby by in writing terminating the business relation with said CPA.

 

Next thing that happened, was that the CPA soured dearly, got really angry, and did send a letter to the former client, a la : 'Certainly OK, because I don't want to have clients like you.' [<- The last part I'm 100% sure of by memory, literally, so derogatory and condesending, but no real foul language.]

 

While receiving that letter from the CPA, the former client went totally ballistic [, in stead of just moving on], and filed a claim at the body for professional misconduct among Danish CPAs [, which has by law competence to issue fines to members going rough and straying]. At that time, the existing regulation had the max limit for fines set to DKK 300,000.

 

The body issued a personal fine to the CPA of DKK 300,000 [non-tax deductible], example setting.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

If that claim body should have todays performance of the three men arguing publicly in the White House in presence of the Press brought in for assessment, my personal guess would be the following :

 

Mr. Trump : fine USD 30 million,

Mr. Zelenskyj : fine USD 20 million, &

Mr. Vance : fine USD 2 million [<- Disclosure : I actually like him, and his approach to things].

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

So : No bonus to any of these gents for performance here today, simply because this is in no way about them selves.

 

Bad form and lack of etikette all over!

Edited 5 hours ago by John Hjorth

[Paarslaars]

43 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Actually, that's a wonderful idea. Why hasn't Europe done it?

Because they will die for their country or Allah but not for the country they moved to.

[cubsfan]

Just now, tnathan said:

+ 1 -- we can hold two truths in our head at once. Europe messed up by being so behind on military readiness, but Putin is bad news and the fact that Trump has allied himself with Russia is legitimately one of the dumbest things I've ever seen. Long term loser is the United States. If you look at most of the early Trump policies its getting a very short term victory at risk of long term ruin. It's the mark of am 80 IQ guy who thinks he's a 150 IQ guy.

 

So are you saying that Europe should continue the war or settle the war?

Serious question.

[Castanza]

What a shitshow of an interview. Trump and JD were disrespectful as Hell. Zelensky is a desperate man right now. I don't love the guy but he is the guy for the job now. Say what you want about election suspension...Churchill suspended elections in England for how many year? Nobody would call him a poor leader. Trump and Vance should have called and end to the meeting and discussed it behind closed doors. 

 

Republicans are trying to solve the war based on why it stated. Too late! the game is already in motion. Time to sack up and play the game. The Democrats were pussying footing around and wasting aid by holding back at key moments or not giving Ukraine what they needed when it counted (trying to save face).Biden allowed this shit to fester and linger for years. 

 

Like WWII this isn't ending until US troop (boots on the ground or USAF) involvement. I said it from the beginning and I'm saying it now. Arguing about why the war started and how it could have been avoided is a different argument than what should be done moving forward. <---- this is leading to a lot of disagreement in this topic and it's silly.

 

Trump may have been the right guy in 2016 before all this stuff started, but I don't think his negotiating tactics work once the game is in motion. Exactly why I did not vote for him. 

[tnathan]

1 minute ago, cubsfan said:

 

So are you saying that Europe should continue the war or settle the war?

Serious question.

If Europe seriously thinks that Putin has no further expansionist urges, then settle the war. But it's hard not to believe that if he is allowed to take large portions of Ukraine that he will simply stop here. I don't know the answer (and you don't either) -- I'm sure the intelligence communities have a good sense. If they think there's a bigger long term threat and the precedent being set in Ukraine creates a scenario where expansionist leaders feel they have a right to expand, you have to fight the war aggressively. It's a really weird (almost pro German WWII) argument to automatically say the world should settle and let Russia have what they want. Very shortsighted.

 

[Blake Hampton]

Watching this truly made me want to cry.
 

How can you have nothing but sympathy for Zelensky? He and his country have been through nothing but hell over the last three years—rape, torture, death, destruction—all at the hands of Vladimir Putin, with whom we're now friends with? Trump is, by far, the most arrogant person I've ever seen. He hasn't witnessed even a fraction of what Zelensky has experienced in a day, yet he still has the audacity to treat him like some random fool.

Shameful.

[John Hjorth]

29 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

Don't forget @Luke to the resistance - Trump is a Russian spy and asset, just like Tulsi Gabbard.

 

Oh, Mike [ @cubsfan ],

 

Please give us a break with this line of posting here.

[Malmqky]

3 minutes ago, tnathan said:

If Europe seriously thinks that Putin has no further expansionist urges, then settle the war. But it's hard not to believe that if he is allowed to take large portions of Ukraine that he will simply stop here. I don't know the answer (and you don't either) -- I'm sure the intelligence communities have a good sense. If they think there's a bigger long term threat and the precedent being set in Ukraine creates a scenario where expansionist leaders feel they have a right to expand, you have to fight the war aggressively. It's a really weird (almost pro German WWII) argument to automatically say the world should settle and let Russia have what they want. Very shortsighted.

 

 

Putin is a very trustworthy individual

 

Surely we can trust him to stop with what he got. He did after 2014 right?