Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[John Hjorth]

I thought it would be interesting  to ask Grok [embedded in X] : 'What is Trumps alternative reality?'  :

 

Quote

It seems like you’re asking about "Trump's alternative reality," possibly referring to a narrative or worldview associated with Donald Trump, the former U.S. President. Based on your earlier question about alternative reality in general, I’ll assume you want an exploration of how this concept applies to Trump—perhaps his public statements, political strategy, or the perception of his supporters. If I’ve misunderstood, feel free to clarify!

 

What Is "Trump's Alternative Reality"?

 

"Trump's alternative reality" is a phrase often used by critics, commentators, and analysts to describe a version of events or a worldview that Donald Trump promotes, which frequently diverges from verifiable facts, mainstream media reports, or consensus reality. It’s not a formal term with a single definition but rather a characterization of his rhetoric, leadership style, and the ecosystem of support around him. Here’s how it tends to manifest:

 

1. Rhetoric and Claims

Trump has a well-documented history of making statements that contradict evidence or established records. This isn’t just spin—it’s often a complete reframing of reality:

• Election Fraud Claims: Since the 2020 election, Trump has insisted it was "stolen" from him, despite no credible evidence supporting widespread fraud. Courts, election officials (including Republicans), and audits have debunked these claims, yet he and many supporters maintain this narrative as truth.
• Exaggerations: He’s claimed the largest inauguration crowd in history (disproven by photos and estimates), zero inflation during his presidency (false— inflation averaged about 1.9% annually), or that he alone "fixed" things like the economy or border security (ignoring broader context or data).
• "What If" Scenarios: Trump often suggests global events—like wars in Ukraine or Israel-Palestine—wouldn’t have happened under his watch, creating an untestable alternate timeline.

This isn’t random; it’s a pattern. He leans on hyperbole and repetition, a tactic he’s described as "truthful hyperbole" in The Art of the Deal, to shape perception over facts.

 

2. Media and Information Bubble

Trump’s alternative reality thrives in a self-contained media ecosystem:

• Fox News and Beyond: Outlets like Fox News, OANN, and Newsmax often amplify his version of events, downplaying or ignoring contradictory evidence. For instance, they’ve echoed his election fraud narrative or portrayed his legal troubles as a "witch hunt."
• Social Media: Platforms like X and Truth Social allow Trump to bypass traditional gatekeepers, speaking directly to followers who reinforce his claims. Posts on X from supporters often reflect this bubble, calling mainstream reports "fake news."
• Rallies: At Trump rallies, attendees enter what’s been called an "alternate universe"—a space where his narrative reigns unchallenged, blending grievance, patriotism, and spectacle. It’s less about policy details and more about a shared identity.

3. Psychological and Political Impact

• Supporter Belief: Some argue Trump genuinely believes his own narrative—filmmaker Alex Holder, who documented Trump around January 6, 2021, said he seemed convinced of his election fraud claims, living in a "self-constructed reality." Others see it as calculated cynicism to rally his base.
• Polarization: This reality doesn’t just persuade—it divides. Supporters see critics as enemies or elitists; critics see supporters as deluded. It’s a feedback loop where questioning the narrative feels like betrayal.
• Policy Justification: In his second term (as of March 2025), observers note he’s using this approach to justify aggressive moves—like tariffs or immigration crackdowns—by painting a dire picture of America that only he can fix.

4. Examples in Action

• Debate Claims: During the 2024 campaign, Trump said Haitian immigrants in Ohio were eating pets—a baseless rumor that went viral. Even after officials debunked it, he doubled down, saying it reflected a broader "invasion."
• January 6: Trump calls the Capitol rioters "patriots" and the event a "beautiful day," while many supporters deny it was an insurrection, despite video evidence and legal convictions.
• Current Term: As of March 9, 2025, he’s framing his presidency as a flawless triumph, with aides like Karoline Leavitt praising "extraordinary actions" in week one, despite measurable outcomes being limited so far.

Why Does It Work?

Trump’s alternative reality resonates because it taps into real emotions—distrust in institutions, frustration with elites, and a desire for simple answers. It’s less about facts and more about feelings. His base doesn’t need data; they need a champion. And he delivers by rejecting the "establishment" narrative outright, calling it "fake" or "corrupt."

 

Critiques and Counterpoints

Critics say this erodes democracy by undermining shared truth—how do you govern when facts don’t matter? Supporters argue it’s just politics, that all leaders spin, and Trump’s just better at it. They’d say the "real" alternative reality is the one pushed by liberal media or bureaucrats.

 

Is It Unique?

Not entirely. Politicians have long bent the truth—think wartime propaganda or economic promises. But Trump’s scale, consistency, and media amplification set it apart. It’s less a distortion of reality than a parallel one, sustained by millions who prefer it.

 

If you meant something more specific—like a particular event or how this plays out today in 2025—let me know, and I’ll zoom in!

 

Pretty good answer, I would say.

Edited Sunday at 03:05 PM by John Hjorth

[73 Reds]

1 hour ago, dealraker said:

I have a mountain bike riding friend of decades.  He solid a a rock as to all in life and he endlessly pokes fun at Trump's distortions and lies.  Then he simply says everyone should fall in line with Trump or they need to be thrown out of the country.  Yep...and I know a lot like this, damn good people who know Trump's garbage but fall in line.

Because in the eyes of many he presents better alternatives?  To those who oppose him do you oppose his policies or methods, or both?  Did you prefer what was the status quo?  Like him or hate him, it is refreshing for a(ny) politician to come up with new ideas.  They all don't have to work.  Presidential elections are binary; your friend obviously didn't like where we were and prefers to try a different approach.  He also probably focuses on policy and not the person, which we would all probably be better off doing.      

[Mephistopheles]

6 minutes ago, 73 Reds said:

Because in the eyes of many he presents better alternatives?  To those who oppose him do you oppose his policies or methods, or both?  Did you prefer what was the status quo?  Like him or hate him, it is refreshing for a(ny) politician to come up with new ideas.  They all don't have to work.  Presidential elections are binary; your friend obviously didn't like where we were and prefers to try a different approach.  He also probably focuses on policy and not the person, which we would all probably be better off doing.      

As someone who opposes him, I like many of his policies (taxes, spending, regulations, energy, pro business, non interventionalism, border security), I also like his creative style in negotiating. I also think he’s hilarious as a person. 
 

Would have been great if he stuck to this without the fascist stuff such as trying to overthrow an election, for example. This negates the qualities of whatever good policies he has. 

[Mephistopheles]

1 hour ago, dealraker said:

I have a mountain bike riding friend of decades.  He solid a a rock as to all in life and he endlessly pokes fun at Trump's distortions and lies.  Then he simply says everyone should fall in line with Trump or they need to be thrown out of the country.  Yep...and I know a lot like this, damn good people who know Trump's garbage but fall in line.

Yea, my Trump supporting friends are some of the kindest, most generous people I know, including a few on this board. Whereas many of my liberal friends can be pretentious virtue signalers. I’ve noticed this pattern for quite some time…not sure why the discrepancy.

[Sweet]

3 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

Good to see the haters out in force.

 

At the very least, you have a man with a plan to end a horrible war, which Europe certainly doesn't.

Keep the killing going for another 5 years, and Ukraine won't exist, while the Europeans thump their chest endlessly.

Let’s just assume you’re right above.

He can do all the above and not say things which are untrue.

 

So why does he do it?

 

Edited Sunday at 06:12 PM by Sweet

[cubsfan]

52 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Let’s just assume you’re right above.

He can do all the above and not say things which are untrue.

 

So why does he do it?

 

 

It doesn't matter.  All politicians are full of shit. Look at Macron and Trudeau - they look like idiots, not leaders.

Macron is acting like he's the king of Europe - and going to save the continent by telling Italy, Germany, Poland & Hungary they need to send troops, which they won't. Europe looks as solid as a bowl of jello - even though they have had 2 years to figure out a plan.

 

Somebody needs to step up and lead in Europe. All I hear is talk. The Russians just laugh.

[Sweet]

1 hour ago, cubsfan said:

 

It doesn't matter.  All politicians are full of shit. Look at Macron and Trudeau - they look like idiots, not leaders.

Macron is acting like he's the king of Europe - and going to save the continent by telling Italy, Germany, Poland & Hungary they need to send troops, which they won't. Europe looks as solid as a bowl of jello - even though they have had 2 years to figure out a plan.

 

Somebody needs to step up and lead in Europe. All I hear is talk. The Russians just laugh.

Say what you want about Macron and Trudeau, they don’t say things which aren’t true nearly as much as Trump.

 

I hated when CNN and other place slant and distort events, remember the ‘good people’ comment.  
 

I just don’t have it in my to kiss the ring and accept that shit just because its someone with my ideological slant doing.

[cubsfan]

3 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Say what you want about Macron and Trudeau, they don’t say things which aren’t true nearly as much as Trump.

 

These guys are incredibly weak leaders, as so many of the European leaders.

That's why Europe is a mess.  All talk, no action. And the population is beginning to get rid of them.

 

 

[Sweet]

2 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

These guys are incredibly weak leaders, as so many of the European leaders.

That's why Europe is a mess.  All talk, no action. And the population is beginning to get rid of them.

 

 

We will get rid of them eventually.  But I think Trump is weak too, just in a different way.

[John Hjorth]

30 minutes ago, Sweet said:

We will get rid of them eventually.  But I think Trump is weak too, just in a different way.

 

@Sweet,

 

To me personally, Mike [ @cubsfan ] and other american CofB&F members have in this topic always had a valid point of the United States of America acting as a security firm for Europe without an agreement for billing for the services provided, since the Russian-Ukrainian war started.

 

The skin in the game here is different for Europe than for USA, that must by now be evident for everyone. Very humiliating and embarrassing for Europe by now, I would say.

 

Fix by now in progress.

 

All good, but about time.

Edited Sunday at 09:32 PM by John Hjorth

[dealraker]

8 hours ago, Eng12345 said:

It truly is amazing how easy a citizenry falls in line - on each side.

 

True.

[cubsfan]

2 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

 

@Sweet,

 

To me personally, Mike [ @cubsfan ] and other american CofB&F members have in this topic always had a valid point of the United States of America acting as a security firm for Europe without an agreement for billing for the services provided, since the Russian-Ukrainian war started.

 

The skin in the game here is different for Europe than for USA, that must by now be evident for everyone. Very humiliating and embarrassing for Europe by now, I would say.

 

Fix by now in progress.

 

All good, but about time.

 

Maybe you'll realize that one day - Russia is not the threat. But the US leaving NATO might be the threat. Europe can no doubt (without the USA) defeat Russia - but it will cost Europe dearly in lives and materials. You and I know the Russians don't care about lives.  But Europe can do it. The price will be very, very high - but Russia is no match for a unified Europe.  The USA can not unify Europe with idiots like Macron & Trudeau in charge. 

 

Sorry about that.

 

Best path forward - get behind Trump - force a peace agreement with that little corrupt POS 

Zelensky.  Get rid of Zelensky - he's an over the hill "Freedom Fighter" - and now a pimp and gangster enriching all his friends.  Get this war over. Fortify Ukraine. Make the Russians pay dearly from now on for any aggression. Putin can not defeat a unified Europe.  But for your weak leadership, huffing and puffing threats to Russia - the Russians just laugh at the division behind the USA and Europe. He's laughing his ass off. Put your money where your mouth is - and perhaps NATO will survive.

 

At this rate it won't.

[Spekulatius]

9 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

Good to see the haters out in force.

 

At the very least, you have a man with a plan to end a horrible war, which Europe certainly doesn't.

Keep the killing going for another 5 years, and Ukraine won't exist, while the Europeans thump their chest endlessly.

Ukraine won’t exist in 3 month if Trump & Putin peace plans succeeds . From what we know, Trump has not pushed back on any Putin’s maximalist demands and those two are now close to each other. Putin’s maximalist demands means no Ukraine.

[Spekulatius]

Ukraine won’t exist in 3 month if Trump & Putin peace plans succeeds . From what we know, Trump has not pushed back on any Putin’s maximalist demands and those two are now close to each other. Putin’s maximalist demands means no Ukraine.

[cubsfan]

25 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

Ukraine won’t exist in 3 month if Trump & Putin peace plans succeeds . From what we know, Trump has not pushed back on any Putin’s maximalist demands and those two are now close to each other. Putin’s maximalist demands means no Ukraine.

 

As usual - you have no solution except blame Trump. What else is new?

 

It's very, very obvious that Putin has the upper hand in any negotiation.

 

The idiots in Europe should have negotiated a settlement 2 years ago, when they were dealing from a position of strength. But the little pimp Zelensky got so full of himself - he told the Russians to fuck off.

 

 Major, major fuck up for Europe & Ukraine. 

Now you expect Trump to wave a magic wand and everything will be just dandy.

Edited yesterday at 12:33 AM by cubsfan

[Eng12345]

17 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

Ukraine won’t exist in 3 month if Trump & Putin peace plans succeeds . From what we know, Trump has not pushed back on any Putin’s maximalist demands and those two are now close to each other. Putin’s maximalist demands means no Ukraine.

To be fair to the MAGAs - you should watch the clip. That's really not quite what he said. Just more twisting by the media. 

[Sweet]

10 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

 

@Sweet,

 

To me personally, Mike [ @cubsfan ] and other american CofB&F members have in this topic always had a valid point of the United States of America acting as a security firm for Europe without an agreement for billing for the services provided, since the Russian-Ukrainian war started.

 

The skin in the game here is different for Europe than for USA, that must by now be evident for everyone. Very humiliating and embarrassing for Europe by now, I would say.

 

Fix by now in progress.

 

All good, but about time.

Notice John how my question about why Trump says untrue things went unanswered.  There are no good answers to that question.  But to admit so would be to criticise Trump.

 

Regarding the valid points.  I’ve been saying this for years as a European.  Trump is right, but it was known before Trump too.

 

Edited yesterday at 08:13 AM by Sweet

[Sweet]

8 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

The idiots in Europe should have negotiated a settlement 2 years ago, when they were dealing from a position of strength. But the little pimp Zelensky got so full of himself - he told the Russians to fuck off.

 

 Major, major fuck up for Europe & Ukraine. 

Now you expect Trump to wave a magic wand and everything will be just be dandy.

 

This is a control map of Ukraine around the approximate time the Russia - Ukraine talks broke down:

 

 

Not exactly a the position of strength you claim it was.

 

In terms of waving a magic wand, the only person who thinks they have one is Trump, who had repeatedly said that he would end the war on day 1.

He needs to swish that wand harder, we are nearly at 50 days.

 

[John Hjorth]

2 hours ago, Sweet said:

Notice John how my question about why Trump says untrue things went unanswered.  There are no good answers to that question.  But to admit so would be to criticise Trump.

 

Regarding the valid points.  I’ve been saying this for years as a European.  Trump is right, but it was known before Trump too.

 

 

@Sweet,

 

Wikipedia : Big lie

 

From the article :

 

Quote

... In the 21st century, the term has been applied to Donald Trump's and his allies' attempts to overturn the result of the 2020 U.S. presidential election, specifically the false claim that the election was stolen through massive voter and electoral fraud. The scale of the claims resulted in Trump supporters attacking the United States Capitol.[3][4] Later reports indicate that Trump knew he had genuinely lost the election while promoting the narrative.[5][6][7][8] Scholars say that constant repetition across many different forms of media is necessary for the success of the big lie technique, as is a psychological motivation for the public to believe the extreme assertions. ...

 

and

 

Quote

... Hitler's definition is given in Chapter 10 of Adolf Hitler's Mein Kampf (part of a single paragraph in both the German original and James Murphy's translation):

 

But it remained for the Jews, with their unqualified capacity for falsehood, and their fighting comrades, the Marxists, to impute responsibility for the downfall precisely to the man who alone had shown a superhuman will and energy in his effort to prevent the catastrophe which he had foreseen and to save the nation from that hour of complete overthrow and shame. By placing responsibility for the loss of the world war on the shoulders of Ludendorff they took away the weapon of moral right from the only adversary dangerous enough to be likely to succeed in bringing the betrayers of the Fatherland to Justice.

 

All this was inspired by the principle – which is quite true within itself – that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

 

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously. Even though the facts which prove this to be so may be brought clearly to their minds, they will still doubt and waver and will continue to think there may be some other explanation. For the grossly impudent lie always leaves traces behind it, even after it has been nailed down, a fact which is known to all expert liars in this world and to all who conspire together in the art of lying.

 

— Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, vol. I, ch. X[9] ...

 

[Spekulatius]

Why nobody challenged Trump false statements?

The "Big Lie" Technique:

The "big lie" propaganda technique, often associated with Goebbels, involves repeatedly stating a falsehood, even a blatant lie, with such intensity and persistence that people eventually come to believe it
 

Thats why fact checking itself is evil also. Why do people believe lies? Because they want to and they re- inforce their existing beliefs. Critical thinking is hard work for the brain and people tend to take shortcuts to avoid it. Or like @dealraker pointed out, some people know that Trump lies but think it doesn’t matter because he will do the “right things” presumably. 
 

Here is the thing about pathological liers, they are almost never just liers, they do worse things than lying. We have a saying in Germany that “Wer Lügt, der stiehlt”, which means that “Liers will steal” (from you).

 

Of course you can say that all politicians will do this and it’s true, but there is line between propaganda and blatantly lying over and over.

 

IMO, we are living in a post truth world now, where you can crate your own truth island  in social media and probably get millions or even hundred millions to believe almost anything (5G chip implants anyone .)

 

What a world to be alive.

[cubsfan]

It really would be wonderful if Europe could get their act together after all the bluster and big talk.

Years to let this conflict get out of control with nothing but empty threats against Putin.

 

Vlad is laughing hard back at the Kremlin watching Macron and the rest with their catfight about

how they proceed. Italy, Poland, Germany, Hungary, Slovakia - all say - no soldiers.

 

What's really pathetic is Europe has the means to stand up to Putin, but not the backbone.

 

 

[Charlie]

5 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

Why nobody challenged Trump false statements?

The "Big Lie" Technique:

The "big lie" propaganda technique, often associated with Goebbels, involves repeatedly stating a falsehood, even a blatant lie, with such intensity and persistence that people eventually come to believe it
 

Thats why fact checking itself is evil also. Why do people believe lies? Because they want to and they re- inforce their existing beliefs. Critical thinking is hard work for the brain and people tend to take shortcuts to avoid it. Or like @dealraker pointed out, some people know that Trump lies but think it doesn’t matter because he will do the “right things” presumably. 
 

Here is the thing about pathological liers, they are almost never just liers, they do worse things than lying. We have a saying in Germany that “Wer Lügt, der stiehlt”, which means that “Liers will steal” (from you).

 

Of course you can say that all politicians will do this and it’s true, but there is line between propaganda and blatantly lying over and over.

 

IMO, we are living in a post truth world now, where you can crate your own truth island  in social media and probably get millions or even hundred millions to believe almost anything (5G chip implants anyone .)

 

What a world to be alive.

 

There is seldom one cockroach in the kitchen:

 

The first one (Elon) tried to manipulate our election.

The second one (Vance) told us that here is no free speech.

And the third one (Trump) is bullying everybody.

 

Other than that the behavior and reputation has been wonderful. 

 

4 more years to go.

Edited yesterday at 04:28 PM by Charlie

[flesh]

Lots of Lying by politicians. If you define lying as the conscious or unconscious willingness to not do the hard work it takes to not even partially speak an untruth, politicians are lying 95% of the time. That’s a high standard though as they are just people. Their self definition probably falls in line with most others practiced form of truth telling which is whether or not it feels honest at the time and or falls in line with what has been felt as honest in the recent past. “Whose song I sing whose bread I eat”. Generally to the degree that instincts are involved you’ll see a greater degree of lying. How many men lie to women more than to men? Who lies more when 100k is on the line vs not? 
 

I don’t believe the Don aka orange man, lies much more than others, I do believe he lies differently, his lies tend to be of a newer variety that doesn’t match with the lies of the more comfortable sort that have been recently felt as true. This is felt as more lying if you thought the comfortable lies of the past were true. 
 

If you’re a connoisseur of truth/lies, orange man isn’t surprising at all as the frequency/magnitude of lies haven’t changed much. 
 

Side note, I read Sam Harris book titled “lying” 12 years ago, it turns out it’s very difficult not to lie, also people tend to get very angry when you are seriously honest to the best of your ability at all times. If you really boil things down, you’ll find that “everything is a belief and all beliefs are untrue”. Vast majority of science is true if its assumptions are true, are they (?) and it’s scientific truth is often context/domain dependent as well. 
 

Buffett is more honest than most, he’d never get elected. 

[John Hjorth]

4 hours ago, Spekulatius said:

... IMO, we are living in a post truth world now, where you can crate your own truth island  in social media and probably get millions or even hundred millions to believe almost anything (5G chip implants anyone .)

 

What a world to be alive.

 

@Spekulatius,

 

Yes, it is indeed very thought-provoking.

 

Somehow, I can't help to think about George Orwell : Nineteen Eighty-Four here.

 

A bit symptomatical, here is a screen shot of the 're-post' button on Truth Social :

 

.  

[Sweet]

27 minutes ago, flesh said:

Lots of Lying by politicians. If you define lying as the conscious or unconscious willingness to not do the hard work it takes to not even partially speak an untruth, politicians are lying 95% of the time. That’s a high standard though as they are just people. Their self definition probably falls in line with most others practiced form of truth telling which is whether or not it feels honest at the time and or falls in line with what has been felt as honest in the recent past. “Whose song I sing whose bread I eat”. Generally to the degree that instincts are involved you’ll see a greater degree of lying. How many men lie to women more than to men? Who lies more when 100k is on the line vs not? 
 

I don’t believe the Don aka orange man, lies much more than others, I do believe he lies differently, his lies tend to be of a newer variety that doesn’t match with the lies of the more comfortable sort that have been recently felt as true. This is felt as more lying if you thought the comfortable lies of the past were true. 
 

If you’re a connoisseur of truth/lies, orange man isn’t surprising at all as the frequency/magnitude of lies haven’t changed much. 
 

Side note, I read Sam Harris book titled “lying” 12 years ago, it turns out it’s very difficult not to lie, also people tend to get very angry when you are seriously honest to the best of your ability at all times. If you really boil things down, you’ll find that “everything is a belief and all beliefs are untrue”. Vast majority of science is true if its assumptions are true, are they (?) and it’s scientific truth is often context/domain dependent as well. 
 

Buffett is more honest than most, he’d never get elected. 

Trump’s untruths are more brash and more frequent than just about any other politician I know.

 

The problem isn’t that HE says things which are untrue, it’s that other people don’t see it, don’t care, or believe it’s true.  It’s their sheepish behaviour, either through not questioning, not caring, or their faith based believing that is concerning.  Some of them are cultists who don’t know they are.

 

Some of the same people who are quick to call out CNN or Biden’s false claims - totally fairly I might add - are suspiciously quiet which Trump does the same.