Personal Question.

[petec]

I disagree with the others to just let it go.  But I also agree that the tone and what you ask are more important that did you kill anyone.

 

Both of my Grandfathers were in WWII and one also went in Korea.  He was a Marine Pilot in the Pacific and was proud of his service.  The other was an Engineer and did not come ashore on D-Day but a few days later and in the European theater.  He was anti-war.  I grew up and couldn't understand why he didn't want to talk about it when the other did.

 

I eventually got both of them to open up as part of a larger context of who they were.  Most people do not want to share things that they are not proud of and for many Vietnam vets they were treated very poorly when they came home (by the media, people on the street, even family) so they may view what they did as not honorable or something to be proud of. 

 

What worked for me is when I was going to be married.  I asked him for some advice and if he had anything that I could show at the wedding.  We had a table of family pictures.  Asking about those family pictures was the best thing I could have ever done.  He started to tell me about how he got married but more about how my Grandmother and him met (he was remarried).  He told me stories of dating other women, including some women that a mother would not be proud of.  That led to stories of his youth, the fact that his parents were rich and then lost it the great depression as his dad was a developer.  That first discussion led to hours of other discussions and stories of youth, his first jobs, etc and he learned about me beyond the typical grandfather/grandson relationship.  Eventually I asked him about his service.  Nothing else. The stories were of boot camp, the hurry up and wait.  Some stories of friends lost.  Never about killing.  I got to really understand my Grandfather at a level that my Dad never did of his Dad nor that I have of my Dad (and never will).  I think some of that is due the relationship of Grandparent/Child vs Parent/Child but its also that I never pushed and he told me what he wanted to tell me.  Several months later I came to visit and he had a box of stuff that he had from his service and he gave them to me.  I was surprised and some of the items made sense based on what he told me, and several did not because he never told me the story with why he kept some of the items. 

 

The story you want is not if he killed anyone.  The story is what did he do, see, experience during his entire life.  Someday I hope I will have these conversations with my sons and grandchildren when they are old enough to not just see me as their father but as a person who has stories, however inconsequential.  Good luck. 

 

 

This.

[Spekulatius]

My grandfather went to war (drafted as a reservist) in the German army during WW2. As teenager, we did find some of the pictures during his service time and asked him about it. He did talk about his service and some of the memories from that time and some fellow soldiers on this pics who didn’t come back. we were curious back then as 12 or 13 years old, but understood that some questions should not be asked and it is better to let him decide what he want to talk about , rather than lead with questions.

 

 

Soldiers in war, especially young ones, are pretty much all the same. I met quite a few the soldiers going over to Iraq desert storm in 1990, since I was living near a big US garrison and airport in Germany. A lot of 18 year old, with little education, somewhere from the Us heartlands that had never seen foreign soil before and wouldn’t be able to pick where they were Much less where they were going and what exactly what they were fighting, if their life dependent on it. Many of them had never had a beer (since they were underage in the US), but we bought them a few, since they were of legal drinking age in Germany. We found it odd , that you can sent someone who is not even allowed to drink a beer, to war and kill people. Those guys were too young to even be afraid. Strange world, but it’s pretty much any war anywhere is fought by 18-22 year old young men who don’t really know what they are fighting for.

[wachtwoord]

I'm as anti-war as anyone you will meet, but I don't blame the troops. He was a young man, put in a situation that was completely out of his control.  He did what he had to do in those circumstances to survive. 

 

"He's the one who gives his body as the weapon for the war and without him all this killing can't go on." - Donovan - Universal soldier

 

How’s that analysis work when there is a draft?

 

Well the draft complicates matters severely ... Draft is one of the biggest crimes against freedom. Do you know the song "and the band played Waltzing Matilda" by Eric Bogle? One of the saddest songs ever written imo.

 

I still say try to desert when drafted if at all possible but I realize that's very difficult to do while keeping yourself safe. Nation states truly are savages in such situations.

[rkbabang]

I'm as anti-war as anyone you will meet, but I don't blame the troops. He was a young man, put in a situation that was completely out of his control.  He did what he had to do in those circumstances to survive. 

 

"He's the one who gives his body as the weapon for the war and without him all this killing can't go on." - Donovan - Universal soldier

 

How’s that analysis work when there is a draft?

 

Well the draft complicates matters severely ... Draft is one of the biggest crimes against freedom. Do you know the song "and the band played Waltzing Matilda" by Eric Bogle? One of the saddest songs ever written imo.

 

I still say try to desert when drafted if at all possible but I realize that's very difficult to do while keeping yourself safe. Nation states truly are savages in such situations.

 

I agree in principle with everything you say, but the reality is that 17-18 year olds signing up for the military are fresh out of 12 years and 14,000 hours of government indoctrination.  I came very close to signing up myself for the promise of free college.  I wasn't an anarchist/libertarian then, just an 18 year old kid from a relatively poor family fresh out of the indoctrination centers wondering how the hell I was going to pay for college.  I ended up taking student loans and not signing up.  Mostly because I didn't want to spend 1 weekend a month away from my girlfriend, as the weekends were going to be the only time we would be able to see each other.  If you are blaming the 18 year olds for signing up or for complying with their draft letters, you are blaming the victims, not the perpetrators.  You are looking at the symptoms, not the causes.  It is no small achievement to rid your mind of that kind intense and long term brainwashing from your most formative years.  Some do, but just go have a look at the politics section of this board, most don't.

 

“Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society" --John Dewey

 

"Our common schools reach, with more or less directness and intensity, all the children belonging to the State, children who are soon to be the State.”  --Horace Mann

 

"It is the State which educates its citizens in civic virtue, gives them a consciousness of their mission, and welds them into unity." --Benito Mussolini

 

[petec]

I think there's a huge difference between signing up and the draft. Either way I don't blame the kids.

 

One of my favourite documents is this one, and it has some great ideas in Chapter 4: https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.pdf

[wachtwoord]

@rkbabang so you want to be part of an evil organization and possibly kill in their name because it's convenient for you? I'm sorry you are responsible for your own actions and you are a murderer if you kill as a soldier and in conspiracy with them if you join. "Befehl ist befehl" is not an excuse.

 

By the same argument you could say it's not your fault if you steal, kill and plunder as a private citizen since it makes your life easier right?

 

I even respect mercenaries more than soldiers. At least they don't have a layer of fake-righteousness on top of their evil morals.

[rkbabang]

@rkbabang so you want to be part of an evil organization and possibly kill in their name because it's convenient for you? I'm sorry you are responsible for your own actions and you are a murderer if you kill as a soldier and in conspiracy with them if you join. "Befehl ist befehl" is not an excuse.

 

By the same argument you could say it's not your fault if you steal, kill and plunder as a private citizen since it makes your life easier right?

 

I even respect mercenaries more than soldiers. At least they don't have a layer of fake-righteousness on top of their evil morals.

 

No I would never do that now.  I'm saying that I didn't see it that way back then.  Maybe you were an anarchist your whole life, but I graduated from high school a 'good' patriotic American.  It took me years to get rid of that brainwashing.  I'm saying that after spending ages 5-18 in government indoctrination camps you can't really blame these kids for not knowing what you and I now know.

 

I look at them as the victims of systematic long term brainwashing.

 

[no_free_lunch]

@rkbabang so you want to be part of an evil organization and possibly kill in their name because it's convenient for you? I'm sorry you are responsible for your own actions and you are a murderer if you kill as a soldier and in conspiracy with them if you join. "Befehl ist befehl" is not an excuse.

 

By the same argument you could say it's not your fault if you steal, kill and plunder as a private citizen since it makes your life easier right?

 

I even respect mercenaries more than soldiers. At least they don't have a layer of fake-righteousness on top of their evil morals.

 

This seems naive.  I guess it's case by case but do you think that a soldier who joined up to fight the nazi's was in the wrong?  It seems they actually saved a lot of lives by putting an end to that madness.

[petec]

@rkbabang so you want to be part of an evil organization and possibly kill in their name because it's convenient for you? I'm sorry you are responsible for your own actions and you are a murderer if you kill as a soldier and in conspiracy with them if you join. "Befehl ist befehl" is not an excuse.

 

By the same argument you could say it's not your fault if you steal, kill and plunder as a private citizen since it makes your life easier right?

 

I even respect mercenaries more than soldiers. At least they don't have a layer of fake-righteousness on top of their evil morals.

 

This seems naive.  I guess it's case by case but do you think that a soldier who joined up to fight the nazi's was in the wrong?  It seems they actually saved a lot of lives by putting an end to that madness.

 

Agreed, but it is arguably a unique example - possibly the only righteous war in history.

[SharperDingaan]

A few words on 'drafts'

 

Legal 'drafts' are merely a pretty way of forcibly grabbing all the kids in a village, and forcing them to become child soldiers.

It's just more effective, raises more bodies, and you can do the traumatising behind closed doors.

 

The young are targeted first because they are easier to control, and can be held hostage against rash parental decisions. (advocate draft dodging, desertion, etc.). The middle-aged are targeted later once some of those sons & daughters have died for the 'cause', and the parents are  now 'invested'. Little is as effective a deterent against passive resistance as dead kids.

 

The machine isn't just training, it's also looking for the nascent killers and developing them.

Remove the sergeant-majors, mix with the mercanaries, and take the restraints off. Commanders are routinely lost to their own men.

 

Every-time there is 'leave', the killers are released into the general population - yet there isn't supposed to be any PTSD?; hookers around the world would say otherwise. Win your conflict and these killers have to be 'defused', fail and it's you who gets 'defused'. In a great many places; they are made a police officer, SWAT member, smoke-eater, etc.

 

Ordinary people, turned into something entirely different.

Hardly surprising they prefer not to talk about it.

 

SD

 

 

 

 

[rkbabang]

The draft is clearly unconstitutional.  The 13th Amendment is written in plain English and doesn't need an idiot in a robe to interpret it.

 

'"Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction."

 

The government doesn't follow its own highest laws, yet expects us to consider it to be legitimate.

 

[John Hjorth]

I'm as anti-war as anyone you will meet, but I don't blame the troops. He was a young man, put in a situation that was completely out of his control.  He did what he had to do in those circumstances to survive. 

 

"He's the one who gives his body as the weapon for the war and without him all this killing can't go on." - Donovan - Universal soldier

 

How’s that analysis work when there is a draft?

 

Well the draft complicates matters severely ... Draft is one of the biggest crimes against freedom. Do you know the song "and the band played Waltzing Matilda" by Eric Bogle? One of the saddest songs ever written imo.

 

I still say try to desert when drafted if at all possible but I realize that's very difficult to do while keeping yourself safe. Nation states truly are savages in such situations.

 

About draft - without the intention to derail the topic -, here in Denmark we have had the legal choice of opting for denial of military service since 1917.

[no_free_lunch]

@rkbabang so you want to be part of an evil organization and possibly kill in their name because it's convenient for you? I'm sorry you are responsible for your own actions and you are a murderer if you kill as a soldier and in conspiracy with them if you join. "Befehl ist befehl" is not an excuse.

 

By the same argument you could say it's not your fault if you steal, kill and plunder as a private citizen since it makes your life easier right?

 

I even respect mercenaries more than soldiers. At least they don't have a layer of fake-righteousness on top of their evil morals.

 

This seems naive.  I guess it's case by case but do you think that a soldier who joined up to fight the nazi's was in the wrong?  It seems they actually saved a lot of lives by putting an end to that madness.

 

Agreed, but it is arguably a unique example - possibly the only righteous war in history.

 

Well there were millions who served there.  Probably something to consider before you start slandering soldiers.

[no_free_lunch]

What about the soldiers who fought ISIS?

 

What about Ukrainians fighting Russians?

 

People are just supposed to hand over their country if they get invaded because, you know, 'war is evil and case closed'.  I get it, it's a discussion board and people like to take extremes to push debate but I hope we think about the implications of what we are saying.

[wachtwoord]

@rkbabang so you want to be part of an evil organization and possibly kill in their name because it's convenient for you? I'm sorry you are responsible for your own actions and you are a murderer if you kill as a soldier and in conspiracy with them if you join. "Befehl ist befehl" is not an excuse.

 

By the same argument you could say it's not your fault if you steal, kill and plunder as a private citizen since it makes your life easier right?

 

I even respect mercenaries more than soldiers. At least they don't have a layer of fake-righteousness on top of their evil morals.

 

This seems naive.  I guess it's case by case but do you think that a soldier who joined up to fight the nazi's was in the wrong?  It seems they actually saved a lot of lives by putting an end to that madness.

 

Yes I do. The second world war was joined by the US for political reasons, nor moralistic ones (just look at the timing and the economic benefit to the US afterwards). Both the Americans (Tokyo, Hiroshima, Nagasaki) and the British (napalm on Dresden) committed some of the most horrendous war crimes in history.

 

Fighting for a nation state is wrong. Don't associate yourself with warlords.

 

Anyway sorry for derailing the thread. I was disappointed reading my fellow libertarian (rkababang) write he does not blame murderers for being murderers and kept reacting from there. I got pulled in because I'm quite passionate about this topic.

 

In retrospect I should have send a PM (I was reminded to this by re-reading the topic title for this).  My apologies to doughishere (OP).

[no_free_lunch]

So watchtwoord, in your alternate reality, what would have been the appropriate response to the german / japanese invasion?  The way I see it, they would have ultimately just conquered all and killed or enslaved large portions of the populations.  I mean that was their stated intent and we have ample evidence they were doing that.

[Spekulatius]

Time to get back on topic or remain silent imo. Doug asked a personal question and didn’t ask for a debate. Sorry, if I contributed to the thread digressing.

[no_free_lunch]

Maybe it got off topic when people started insulting soldiers?

[UNF2007]

I'm currently on AD in the US Army, actually just got back from a 5 month deployment to Afghanistan a few days ago, working at an FST. I would suggest not asking if he killed anyone (although the curiosity is natural, my 7 yo asked me the same question, which is kind of funny since I'm a surgeon), maybe instead as others have suggested ask about his experiences. Almost every warfighter I have met in my 17yrs in the Army, if they are involved in direct action, will have some level of PTSD from it. It's violent nasty work, in terrible environments.

[rkbabang]

my 7 yo asked me the same question, which is kind of funny since I'm a surgeon

 

So you answer the way any surgeon does.  "Not on purpose"  :)

 

[rukawa]

> “Children who know how to think for themselves spoil the harmony of the collective society" --John Dewey

 

I looked this up because it sounded wrong and it appears to be falsely attributed to Dewey.

[doughishere]

Time to get back on topic or remain silent imo. Doug asked a personal question and didn’t ask for a debate. Sorry, if I contributed to the thread digressing.

 

The private replies have been great. Really appreciate those that reached out.