LC Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Context and an anecdotal story: Mother's side (Italian) went thru Canada (7 year rest stop) to NYC. Father's side (also Italian) went straight to NYC. I wound up as a dual citizen and lived in Montreal for ~7 years (college and beyond). NYC, USA in general from what I've seen, is definitely more entrepreneurial. There is something about "making it for myself" in the USA. In Canada it was more "let's all enjoy this lovely country we have". Here's the anecdote about entrepreneurship: About four years ago I was browsing reddit and came across this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/EntrepreneurRideAlong/ Here is the (dated) description: "This sub-reddit was created by u/LocalCaseStudy in early 2012 to show people how he launched his cleaning company, MaidsInBlack.com. Less than two years later, his company is now doing over $1 Million dollars per year and at least FIVE more companies that were founded from this subreddit are on pace to hit that in 2015 as well. You've stumbled across what is probably the most transparent case study you'll ever see for a local business." It followed the story of a dude who built a new app/website to book cleaning ladies (and gentlemen), and then started hiring out. Pretty much the story of how a guy built a small business from scratch, except he narrated the entire process online for people to watch. Everything from hiring, quality control, scheduling, insurance, payroll, website building, online advertising, customer service, etc. etc. It TOOK OFF. Everyone reading it thought, "well that doesn't seem TOO hard, I can probably do it too". And they did. At first it was pure clones, then it expanded to other home-services (gardening, etc.). Most were relatively successful, moreso depending on the hustle of the owner/operator. Then came the consolidation, the selling of ancillary services (automated advertising, website/app-in-a-box, automated customer service). Anyone in NYC and elsewhere may remember those "Handy" cleaning services ads on the subway. Well, this online forum is where it all started. Truly amazing if you think about it, the entire lifecycle of a business from start to finish, all documented. What really got me was how instantly, other people reading it immediately copied it, like within DAYS. The entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well in the US, I think, more than anywhere else I have ever been.
randomep Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Americans have always had a rather naive view of themselves in perspective to the rest of the world. One only has to look at the President as an example. Rich? What is rich? Is it strictly monetary? Are you rich if you make a comfortable living, yet a medical emergency could bankrupt you at any time? Are you rich when your murder rate in a single city is multiples of that of whole countries? This is CoBF after all. So I suppose WEB is a naive idiot? I am also naive for believing that there is no better time and place to live than now in america or some other free developed country. Bankruptcy is just a word. In this day and age an american with cancer may go bk but he will still have higher expectancy than virtually any other time or society. Bankruptcy simply means you lose your possession while saving your life. And bankruptcy in america isn't all that bad. You get plenty of food stamps social support to get through better than 1/2 the people in the world. Not to mention if you are healthy you can easily start over....... look at Lance Armstrong.
randomep Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Is America that rich? You're #11 based on GDP per capita. You're #66 based on GDP per land area. The U.S. is just a big country Quite a few countries that rank higher spend way more on healthcare. #11 GDP per capita. So you are implying there are 10 more desirable places to be? I looked up those countries: Hong Kong, Litchenstein, Macau, Manaco?? These are not countries, they are small towns. The largest countries I found are Norway and Switzerland...... those two are the only real countries in my book. To be only beaten by Norway and Switzerland is pretty impressive, no?
Gregmal Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Context and an anecdotal story: Mother's side (Italian) went thru Canada (7 year rest stop) to NYC. Father's side (also Italian) went straight to NYC. I wound up as a dual citizen and lived in Montreal for ~7 years (college and beyond). NYC, USA in general from what I've seen, is definitely more entrepreneurial. There is something about "making it for myself" in the USA. In Canada it was more "let's all enjoy this lovely country we have". Here's the anecdote about entrepreneurship: About four years ago I was browsing reddit and came across this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/EntrepreneurRideAlong/ Here is the (dated) description: "This sub-reddit was created by u/LocalCaseStudy in early 2012 to show people how he launched his cleaning company, MaidsInBlack.com. Less than two years later, his company is now doing over $1 Million dollars per year and at least FIVE more companies that were founded from this subreddit are on pace to hit that in 2015 as well. You've stumbled across what is probably the most transparent case study you'll ever see for a local business." It followed the story of a dude who built a new app/website to book cleaning ladies (and gentlemen), and then started hiring out. Pretty much the story of how a guy built a small business from scratch, except he narrated the entire process online for people to watch. Everything from hiring, quality control, scheduling, insurance, payroll, website building, online advertising, customer service, etc. etc. It TOOK OFF. Everyone reading it thought, "well that doesn't seem TOO hard, I can probably do it too". And they did. At first it was pure clones, then it expanded to other home-services (gardening, etc.). Most were relatively successful, moreso depending on the hustle of the owner/operator. Then came the consolidation, the selling of ancillary services (automated advertising, website/app-in-a-box, automated customer service). Anyone in NYC and elsewhere may remember those "Handy" cleaning services ads on the subway. Well, this online forum is where it all started. Truly amazing if you think about it, the entire lifecycle of a business from start to finish, all documented. What really got me was how instantly, other people reading it immediately copied it, like within DAYS. The entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well in the US, I think, more than anywhere else I have ever been. I think this largely lends itself to the notion that there are many people looking for a combination of an entrepreneurialish gig that provides the most personal freedom and the easiest path to supporting ones lifestyle ambitions. These types of businesses then become overpopulated, ground down, and then are no longer attractive on the original basis. Competition here is very fierce. A few examples personally- I grew up in a wealthy suburb of NYC. The kind of place were not many kids appreciate money because its never been an issue. It was always just a given that one of three things will occur largely revolving around the notion that you just end up where everyone else does(In the suburbs this means an 800k house, a wife and 2-3 kids with 3 vacations a year and a mid life crisis that gets resolved with the purchase of a sports car) 1) You use family/friend connections to get into a respectable job working for someone else 2) You get funded by family/friends to start your own venture (If I had a penny for every kid I grew up with who became a "hedge fund manager" with the help of mom+dad and a few relatives...) 3) You inherit money I've lived on my own since my mid teens and gotten to know the other side of the coin as well during that time period. I've found that the hustle required to really get to that next level seems far more common in lower-middle class raised individuals because it is the norm. When you see family and friends working 2 jobs to put food on the table, that becomes the standard. When you have to chose between a new pair of sneakers, a dinner date with a girl, or paying for a textbook, its far different than shopping with the credit card, then meeting your date at the Cheesecake Factory, and then showing up to class late. But these are two completely normal realities depending on where you are from. Which kind of delves into where some have already pointed. When you, your family, your neighborhood, etc become accustomed to certain ways of life, they become hard to break. If it is easier to secure an 80-100k job with great benefits, that will be your path of least resistance. In America, outside of the big cities, it's not easy finding jobs like that anymore(at least ones that don't require 80 hours a week and 5+ years of university). A lot of that went away with the financial crisis but the evolution of technology has also eliminated many jobs that used to support this. So many people must turn to an entrepreneurial path to provide themselves the life they want. However most traditional routes of entrepreneurship arent there anymore. Growing up(I was born in the 80's), you had family run businesses. The local deli, now replaced by Subway and Panera. The local sporting goods store, now replaced by Dick's. The local mechanic/auto body shop, now a Midas chain. Local clothing store, now a Kohl's. The local grocery store, now replaced by Stop-N-Shop. All of which are being threatened by Walmart and Amazon. So even those seeking to be entrepreneurs are given far fewer opportunities to than ever before. Its the ugly by-product of capitalism in which everything is suctioned to the top. As consolidation occurs the vortex becomes stronger and more and more carnage occurs, in an accelerating manner. Tons of people I know have tried starting their own business. Probably 70% of people I know at some point or another have tried starting a construction/landscaping business. 75% end up taking W2 jobs eventually. 15% struggle along under the constant pressure of never really being secure, and 10% seem to end up getting there through a combination of working harder than everyone else and doing things more efficiently. Although I'd argue that this 10% are the type that would make it regardless. Take 90% of the people I know who are self sufficient with their own businesses, and it's finance and real estate folks. Two industries under attack(automated investing/AI/ Zillow/internet plus massively over-regulated), and likely shrinking rapidly over the next decade as well. Which leaves whom safe? Doctors and lawyers? I personally believe much of this here in the states is because the education system is so screwed up. People are not educated in a way that directs them to areas that they can best be utilized. Canada definitely seems to have things better handled on that front. At least their university grads are not leaving school with a useless 5 year degree, 200k in debt, and the grim reality that you'll need to compete for a 55k a year job. Bottom line it seems, is that Canada has a better handle on "the system". The quality of life in CA is higher. Employment does not seem as challenging, and people seem to be put in position to provide for themselves better. Meanwhile in the grand old US of A, one is taught until their mid 20's that you can be anything you want to be, everyone gets a trophy, and then we wondering why things just dont work.The US may be more entrepreneurial but it is because more people have to be because there is now a greater social disparity between the people who have made it, and those whom haven't. Canada still seems to have a healthy middle class.
Paarslaars Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Is America that rich? You're #11 based on GDP per capita. You're #66 based on GDP per land area. The U.S. is just a big country Quite a few countries that rank higher spend way more on healthcare. #11 GDP per capita. So you are implying there are 10 more desirable places to be? I looked up those countries: Hong Kong, Litchenstein, Macau, Manaco?? These are not countries, they are small towns. The largest countries I found are Norway and Switzerland...... those two are the only real countries in my book. To be only beaten by Norway and Switzerland is pretty impressive, no? If it's small it's not relevant? How American of you :) I'm sure the Irish are glad to hear they are not a real country. There is a reason why I added per land area as well. If you have a large sparsely populated area, their income potential (farm land) is higher than a small densely populated area. This should be taken into account. Overal I would not ignore the small countries, I would ignore the ones with a lot of oil as a natural resource (which includes Norway). Then have a look at both GDP per capita and GDP per land area, maybe combining both.
rukawa Posted May 12, 2017 Author Posted May 12, 2017 If it's small it's not relevant? How American of you :) If its small it might make sense to compare it to American cities or to American states rather than the whole country. Its a bit like comparing the returns of Berkshire Hathaway to the returns of Warren Buffet when he was just starting out.
rukawa Posted May 12, 2017 Author Posted May 12, 2017 I don't really think Canada and US are that different. Most of the noted differences between the countries, I believe, are due to the fact that most of you have very limited experiences. Business is definitely less competitive in Canada because we are a smaller market. But I don't think we are any less entrepreneurial. We just have the best ideas of 30 million...you have the best of 300 million. And my view is that, that is your secret sauce...a secret sauce that China has to an even greater extent, since they have an even larger population. Although in China's case they still have far more internal barriers due to the hukou system.
John Hjorth Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 ... Compared to other stories posted here mine is down right boring. ... Not at all, rb, at least not to me - I actually find these family stories here on CoBF fascinating - vey fascinating indeed. Do you mind sharing your country of origin? - From another post of yours yesterday, I get the perception, that you are of European origin - I have also noted earlier, that you actually have an extraordinary general knowledge of German business, considering that you are a Canadian citizen. Not at all John. I'm originally from Romania and my family moved here when I was in my teens. The fact that I lived and worked in London for a number of year I think broadened my horizon and understanding of things. But generally most of my knowledge of business has been acquired through boring old fashion studying. Thanks for sharing, rb, I'm actually in some state of shock to read about your national origin here. Those years before your parents made the decision to move to Canada were very bad here in Europe. Totally crazy stuff going on many places in Eastern Europe. I still remember how worried I was at that time, because it was going on so close to here. To me, it really puts your posts on here in perspective. I suppose you have some things in your mental backpack from between gaining selfawareness and the move to Canada as a young boy that you'll never forget.
randomep Posted May 12, 2017 Posted May 12, 2017 Is America that rich? You're #11 based on GDP per capita. You're #66 based on GDP per land area. The U.S. is just a big country Quite a few countries that rank higher spend way more on healthcare. #11 GDP per capita. So you are implying there are 10 more desirable places to be? I looked up those countries: Hong Kong, Litchenstein, Macau, Manaco?? These are not countries, they are small towns. The largest countries I found are Norway and Switzerland...... those two are the only real countries in my book. To be only beaten by Norway and Switzerland is pretty impressive, no? If it's small it's not relevant? How American of you :) I'm sure the Irish are glad to hear they are not a real country. There is a reason why I added per land area as well. If you have a large sparsely populated area, their income potential (farm land) is higher than a small densely populated area. This should be taken into account. Overall I would not ignore the small countries, I would ignore the ones with a lot of oil as a natural resource (which includes Norway). Then have a look at both GDP per capita and GDP per land area, maybe combining both. You notice on my profile that I am Canadian? The fact that a small sample size is less statistically significant is self evident. If you have a small town of 100 people and 10% are millionaires, it doesn't mean that town has a great school system that churns out talented people. To achieve so much for a country of america's size is incredible. Look at it another way, I guess there are 100 countries of Norway's size or smaller. Say there are 20 countries of America's size. So Norway and Switzerland are top 2 percent but america is top 5%, thus America is more impressive. Considering America has same wealth as Norway. Land size isn't the gift to the people it is the resources under the land and norway's case from its waters. I can argue much of norway's wealth comes from its natural resources such as oil.
shalab Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Gregmal, I tend to agree with you. One difference is that many U.S companies don't invest in US Schools/education or helping the citizens, I think they do a lot more in other countries. If you look at the top employers in Canada, you will see many familiar names. http://www.canadastop100.com/national/ Many companies in the US hire from Canadian colleges as they would from U.S colleges. So in many ways - it is advantageous to be a Canadian Citizen - you have the system providing you back-up (health care, cheap education etc.), easy to get good paying jobs, if you want to move to the U.S, it is not that difficult. Context and an anecdotal story: Mother's side (Italian) went thru Canada (7 year rest stop) to NYC. Father's side (also Italian) went straight to NYC. I wound up as a dual citizen and lived in Montreal for ~7 years (college and beyond). NYC, USA in general from what I've seen, is definitely more entrepreneurial. There is something about "making it for myself" in the USA. In Canada it was more "let's all enjoy this lovely country we have". Here's the anecdote about entrepreneurship: About four years ago I was browsing reddit and came across this subreddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/EntrepreneurRideAlong/ Here is the (dated) description: "This sub-reddit was created by u/LocalCaseStudy in early 2012 to show people how he launched his cleaning company, MaidsInBlack.com. Less than two years later, his company is now doing over $1 Million dollars per year and at least FIVE more companies that were founded from this subreddit are on pace to hit that in 2015 as well. You've stumbled across what is probably the most transparent case study you'll ever see for a local business." It followed the story of a dude who built a new app/website to book cleaning ladies (and gentlemen), and then started hiring out. Pretty much the story of how a guy built a small business from scratch, except he narrated the entire process online for people to watch. Everything from hiring, quality control, scheduling, insurance, payroll, website building, online advertising, customer service, etc. etc. It TOOK OFF. Everyone reading it thought, "well that doesn't seem TOO hard, I can probably do it too". And they did. At first it was pure clones, then it expanded to other home-services (gardening, etc.). Most were relatively successful, moreso depending on the hustle of the owner/operator. Then came the consolidation, the selling of ancillary services (automated advertising, website/app-in-a-box, automated customer service). Anyone in NYC and elsewhere may remember those "Handy" cleaning services ads on the subway. Well, this online forum is where it all started. Truly amazing if you think about it, the entire lifecycle of a business from start to finish, all documented. What really got me was how instantly, other people reading it immediately copied it, like within DAYS. The entrepreneurial spirit is alive and well in the US, I think, more than anywhere else I have ever been. I think this largely lends itself to the notion that there are many people looking for a combination of an entrepreneurialish gig that provides the most personal freedom and the easiest path to supporting ones lifestyle ambitions. These types of businesses then become overpopulated, ground down, and then are no longer attractive on the original basis. Competition here is very fierce. A few examples personally- I grew up in a wealthy suburb of NYC. The kind of place were not many kids appreciate money because its never been an issue. It was always just a given that one of three things will occur largely revolving around the notion that you just end up where everyone else does(In the suburbs this means an 800k house, a wife and 2-3 kids with 3 vacations a year and a mid life crisis that gets resolved with the purchase of a sports car) 1) You use family/friend connections to get into a respectable job working for someone else 2) You get funded by family/friends to start your own venture (If I had a penny for every kid I grew up with who became a "hedge fund manager" with the help of mom+dad and a few relatives...) 3) You inherit money I've lived on my own since my mid teens and gotten to know the other side of the coin as well during that time period. I've found that the hustle required to really get to that next level seems far more common in lower-middle class raised individuals because it is the norm. When you see family and friends working 2 jobs to put food on the table, that becomes the standard. When you have to chose between a new pair of sneakers, a dinner date with a girl, or paying for a textbook, its far different than shopping with the credit card, then meeting your date at the Cheesecake Factory, and then showing up to class late. But these are two completely normal realities depending on where you are from. Which kind of delves into where some have already pointed. When you, your family, your neighborhood, etc become accustomed to certain ways of life, they become hard to break. If it is easier to secure an 80-100k job with great benefits, that will be your path of least resistance. In America, outside of the big cities, it's not easy finding jobs like that anymore(at least ones that don't require 80 hours a week and 5+ years of university). A lot of that went away with the financial crisis but the evolution of technology has also eliminated many jobs that used to support this. So many people must turn to an entrepreneurial path to provide themselves the life they want. However most traditional routes of entrepreneurship arent there anymore. Growing up(I was born in the 80's), you had family run businesses. The local deli, now replaced by Subway and Panera. The local sporting goods store, now replaced by Dick's. The local mechanic/auto body shop, now a Midas chain. Local clothing store, now a Kohl's. The local grocery store, now replaced by Stop-N-Shop. All of which are being threatened by Walmart and Amazon. So even those seeking to be entrepreneurs are given far fewer opportunities to than ever before. Its the ugly by-product of capitalism in which everything is suctioned to the top. As consolidation occurs the vortex becomes stronger and more and more carnage occurs, in an accelerating manner. Tons of people I know have tried starting their own business. Probably 70% of people I know at some point or another have tried starting a construction/landscaping business. 75% end up taking W2 jobs eventually. 15% struggle along under the constant pressure of never really being secure, and 10% seem to end up getting there through a combination of working harder than everyone else and doing things more efficiently. Although I'd argue that this 10% are the type that would make it regardless. Take 90% of the people I know who are self sufficient with their own businesses, and it's finance and real estate folks. Two industries under attack(automated investing/AI/ Zillow/internet plus massively over-regulated), and likely shrinking rapidly over the next decade as well. Which leaves whom safe? Doctors and lawyers? I personally believe much of this here in the states is because the education system is so screwed up. People are not educated in a way that directs them to areas that they can best be utilized. Canada definitely seems to have things better handled on that front. At least their university grads are not leaving school with a useless 5 year degree, 200k in debt, and the grim reality that you'll need to compete for a 55k a year job. Bottom line it seems, is that Canada has a better handle on "the system". The quality of life in CA is higher. Employment does not seem as challenging, and people seem to be put in position to provide for themselves better. Meanwhile in the grand old US of A, one is taught until their mid 20's that you can be anything you want to be, everyone gets a trophy, and then we wondering why things just dont work.The US may be more entrepreneurial but it is because more people have to be because there is now a greater social disparity between the people who have made it, and those whom haven't. Canada still seems to have a healthy middle class.
DTEJD1997 Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Take 90% of the people I know who are self sufficient with their own businesses, and it's finance and real estate folks. Two industries under attack(automated investing/AI/ Zillow/internet plus massively over-regulated), and likely shrinking rapidly over the next decade as well. Which leaves whom safe? Doctors and lawyers? I personally believe much of this here in the states is because the education system is so screwed up. People are not educated in a way that directs them to areas that they can best be utilized. Canada definitely seems to have things better handled on that front. At least their university grads are not leaving school with a useless 5 year degree, 200k in debt, and the grim reality that you'll need to compete for a 55k a year job. Lawyers are safe? whut WHUT????? Most people who (try) to become a lawyer will end up on a pathway to poverty... I can vouch for this as I, and a lot of family, are attorneys/judges. There are two MAIN things wrong with the legal profession: A). The cost of a legal education is just silly. Most law skewls cost $50k+ a year now. Sometimes law students even have undergraduate debt! I work with attorneys who have well over $100k in student loan debt, some have $200k+ a few even have $300k+ B). A lot of attorneys make $40k a year or LESS. Sure, the top 10% or 15% of the profession make big money...then you've got another 10% or so that make pretty decent money...then another 10% or 15% that make a living...then 60% to 70% that are really scraping by. This is called the "bi-modal" salary distribution. A lot of skewls don't want to admit...but their grads simply don't get jobs. If they do get jobs, they pay very little. Law firms simply aren't interested in graduates from the bottom 100+ law skewls. That is why you have had so many lawsuits against the skewls and the swindlers that run/work in them. Finally, a lot of legal "grunt" work is RAPIDLY becoming automated...I know this as I work on these projects from time to time. The high end work & oddball work is probably safe...but low level work? It is becoming heavily automated.... There is no safety for 85% of attorneys...
SharperDingaan Posted May 13, 2017 Posted May 13, 2017 Take 90% of the people I know who are self sufficient with their own businesses, and it's finance and real estate folks. Two industries under attack(automated investing/AI/ Zillow/internet plus massively over-regulated), and likely shrinking rapidly over the next decade as well. Which leaves whom safe? Doctors and lawyers? I personally believe much of this here in the states is because the education system is so screwed up. People are not educated in a way that directs them to areas that they can best be utilized. Canada definitely seems to have things better handled on that front. At least their university grads are not leaving school with a useless 5 year degree, 200k in debt, and the grim reality that you'll need to compete for a 55k a year job. Lawyers are safe? whut WHUT????? Most people who (try) to become a lawyer will end up on a pathway to poverty... I can vouch for this as I, and a lot of family, are attorneys/judges. There are two MAIN things wrong with the legal profession: A). The cost of a legal education is just silly. Most law skewls cost $50k+ a year now. Sometimes law students even have undergraduate debt! I work with attorneys who have well over $100k in student loan debt, some have $200k+ a few even have $300k+ B). A lot of attorneys make $40k a year or LESS. Sure, the top 10% or 15% of the profession make big money...then you've got another 10% or so that make pretty decent money...then another 10% or 15% that make a living...then 60% to 70% that are really scraping by. This is called the "bi-modal" salary distribution. A lot of skewls don't want to admit...but their grads simply don't get jobs. If they do get jobs, they pay very little. Law firms simply aren't interested in graduates from the bottom 100+ law skewls. That is why you have had so many lawsuits against the skewls and the swindlers that run/work in them. Finally, a lot of legal "grunt" work is RAPIDLY becoming automated...I know this as I work on these projects from time to time. The high end work & oddball work is probably safe...but low level work? It is becoming heavily automated.... There is no safety for 85% of attorneys... https://legaltalknetwork.com/podcasts/legal-toolkit/2016/06/smart-contracts-bitcoin-blockchain-technology/ The view is that self-executing contracts using code will reduce billable hours, but not obviate the need for legal services; and those lower costs will improve small business access to justice by reducing costs. Those attorneys at 40K/year are going to be taking a significant pay cut. A 40K/yr lawyer working 37.5 hrs/week, 48 weeks/year (2 weeks vacation + 10 days stat holidays) will put in roughly 1800 hours/yr - about $22.22/hour. If the technology cuts that wage by even just 25% (10K) - that lawyers pay is going to be 16.67/hr at best. Not a lot of difference between the waiter/waitress serving you, & the lawyer doing your one-off legal work. SD
DTEJD1997 Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 Take 90% of the people I know who are self sufficient with their own businesses, and it's finance and real estate folks. Two industries under attack(automated investing/AI/ Zillow/internet plus massively over-regulated), and likely shrinking rapidly over the next decade as well. Which leaves whom safe? Doctors and lawyers? I personally believe much of this here in the states is because the education system is so screwed up. People are not educated in a way that directs them to areas that they can best be utilized. Canada definitely seems to have things better handled on that front. At least their university grads are not leaving school with a useless 5 year degree, 200k in debt, and the grim reality that you'll need to compete for a 55k a year job. Lawyers are safe? whut WHUT????? Most people who (try) to become a lawyer will end up on a pathway to poverty... I can vouch for this as I, and a lot of family, are attorneys/judges. There are two MAIN things wrong with the legal profession: A). The cost of a legal education is just silly. Most law skewls cost $50k+ a year now. Sometimes law students even have undergraduate debt! I work with attorneys who have well over $100k in student loan debt, some have $200k+ a few even have $300k+ B). A lot of attorneys make $40k a year or LESS. Sure, the top 10% or 15% of the profession make big money...then you've got another 10% or so that make pretty decent money...then another 10% or 15% that make a living...then 60% to 70% that are really scraping by. This is called the "bi-modal" salary distribution. A lot of skewls don't want to admit...but their grads simply don't get jobs. If they do get jobs, they pay very little. Law firms simply aren't interested in graduates from the bottom 100+ law skewls. That is why you have had so many lawsuits against the skewls and the swindlers that run/work in them. Finally, a lot of legal "grunt" work is RAPIDLY becoming automated...I know this as I work on these projects from time to time. The high end work & oddball work is probably safe...but low level work? It is becoming heavily automated.... There is no safety for 85% of attorneys... https://legaltalknetwork.com/podcasts/legal-toolkit/2016/06/smart-contracts-bitcoin-blockchain-technology/ The view is that self-executing contracts using code will reduce billable hours, but not obviate the need for legal services; and those lower costs will improve small business access to justice by reducing costs. Those attorneys at 40K/year are going to be taking a significant pay cut. A 40K/yr lawyer working 37.5 hrs/week, 48 weeks/year (2 weeks vacation + 10 days stat holidays) will put in roughly 1800 hours/yr - about $22.22/hour. If the technology cuts that wage by even just 25% (10K) - that lawyers pay is going to be 16.67/hr at best. Not a lot of difference between the waiter/waitress serving you, & the lawyer doing your one-off legal work. SD SD: A few differences between low & mid-end attorneys and waiters... A). The waiter probably isn't $100k to $200k in the hole due to student loan debt. B). The waiter learned their trade in a week. Every year, to keep up on industry trends, the waiter probably studies/learns for an afternoon. They need to learn about new dishes & drinks. There is no mandatory licensing. There is no $500 a year "waiter fees". There is no mandatory $1,500 a year "Continuing Waiter Education". C). Finally, the waiter probably didn't spend 7,8,9 years of their life in school & libraries learning how to wait. THUS, when you even things out, the waiter is far, far ahead of most attorneys...
Spekulatius Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 Slavery was a major factor in wealth creation at the top end, and led to fast economic development. The whole damn civil war was about slavery allowing the south to economically supercede the north. Yes, it created wealth *at the top end* but it also meant a big chunk of the population were disincentivised and unproductive. If it was such a good system for creating wealth, there's a decent chance the south would have been wealthy enough to beat the north. In fact, the north's economy dramatically outperformed the south's and was a major factor in winning the war. Similarly if slavery was an effective economic system great wealth would have been created in feudal Europe; in fact, wealth creation exploded as we moved away from the feudal system. Slavery is a great system for moving wealth from the poor to the rich; it is not a great system for creating wealth, not compared to free trade. As to everyone arriving equal: Tell that to the irish who were pressed off the boat in the civil war, Japanese in internment camps, Eurpoean immigrants after WWI, Arrivals at Ellis Island, Black slaves, Jews that couldn't get hired on Wall Street....... Ha! Fair. Although everything is relative: what I meant was that America didn't start with a feudal system and have to waste centuries persuading the lords to give up their serfs. +1 The problem with slavery is that so much human capital get's underutilized. Since sales have no prospects, their productivity is low and you lose the human capital of smart and ingenious people's with a lot of skill just working the cotton fields. The main reason the south lost was because the North had the numbers and the industrial capacity that the south could never build, partly because of slavery
DooDiligence Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 Slavery was a major factor in wealth creation at the top end, and led to fast economic development. The whole damn civil war was about slavery allowing the south to economically supercede the north. Yes, it created wealth *at the top end* but it also meant a big chunk of the population were disincentivised and unproductive. If it was such a good system for creating wealth, there's a decent chance the south would have been wealthy enough to beat the north. In fact, the north's economy dramatically outperformed the south's and was a major factor in winning the war. Similarly if slavery was an effective economic system great wealth would have been created in feudal Europe; in fact, wealth creation exploded as we moved away from the feudal system. Slavery is a great system for moving wealth from the poor to the rich; it is not a great system for creating wealth, not compared to free trade. As to everyone arriving equal: Tell that to the irish who were pressed off the boat in the civil war, Japanese in internment camps, Eurpoean immigrants after WWI, Arrivals at Ellis Island, Black slaves, Jews that couldn't get hired on Wall Street....... Ha! Fair. Although everything is relative: what I meant was that America didn't start with a feudal system and have to waste centuries persuading the lords to give up their serfs. +1 The problem with slavery is that so much human capital get's underutilized. Since sales have no prospects, their productivity is low and you lose the human capital of smart and ingenious people's with a lot of skill just working the cotton fields. The main reason the south lost was because the North had the numbers and the industrial capacity that the south could never build, partly because of slavery Thank the Buddha they didn't put all those field workers into munitions manufacturing or we might all be whistling dixie right now... Anyone ever read Farnham's Freehold - Heinlein? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farnham's_Freehold
shalab Posted May 14, 2017 Posted May 14, 2017 One option for Americans though is to be a government employee - there are 22 million+ Americans employed by the government. This pays for pension and provides a steady income. http://www.usafacts.org/
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