jeffmori7 Posted October 11, 2012 Share Posted October 11, 2012 Liberty these are good point. What is important to look at in terms of population growth is the transitional unbalance between birth and death. What is encouraging is that less developed countries are more rapidly closing the gap than actual developed countries have. But as Cardboard suggested, I'm not that sure than we can decouple population and economic growth in the long term. Without inflation and immigration, would there really be growth in the US and Canada? And what about Europe, Japan? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 But as Cardboard suggested, I'm not that sure than we can decouple population and economic growth in the long term. Without inflation and immigration, would there really be growth in the US and Canada? And what about Europe, Japan? But the bottom line is quality of life for each person. If you have lower GDP growth, and lower population growth, but people live better and have more goods and services available to them in a more robust/resilient/sustainable civilization, that's a total win in my book. We must be careful not to measure the wrong things and optimize for them rather than for what really matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meiroy Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 The USA being the tallest midget in the room will keep attracting immigrants and its population will keep growing. Especially as the other midgets keep getting shorter and the China midget gets its pants off, revealing the stilts. The IMF starting to question its austerity call, if they now join the party as well, it's unlikely the push for growth will stop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmori7 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 But as Cardboard suggested, I'm not that sure than we can decouple population and economic growth in the long term. Without inflation and immigration, would there really be growth in the US and Canada? And what about Europe, Japan? But the bottom line is quality of life for each person. If you have lower GDP growth, and lower population growth, but people live better and have more goods and services available to them in a more robust/resilient/sustainable civilization, that's a total win in my book. We must be careful not to measure the wrong things and optimize for them rather than for what really matters. Totally agree! But my fear is that sometimes we aim at growth as if it's something inherently good in itself, without focusing on what really matters as you say. But let's just hope for the best, starting maybe by redcing military spending (to come back to the main subject of this thread, the debt and deficit problematics!)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Totally agree! But my fear is that sometimes we aim at growth as if it's something inherently good in itself, without focusing on what really matters as you say. But let's just hope for the best, starting maybe by redcing military spending (to come back to the main subject of this thread, the debt and deficit problematics!)... Definitely. We're not measuring the right things right now, and sadly they're hard things to measure. Our obsession with 'easy' numbers like GDP leads to all kinds of perverse incentives and badly optimized systems (ie. paying people to dig a hole and then fill it back up increases GDP, but it doesn't actually create any value). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oddballstocks Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Just an observation, but I find it fascinating that greater than 50% of the responses to this thread are by Canadians. As a cultural observation I find this thread really interesting. I know who the Canadian Prime Minister is, but I really have no idea about his political leanings or what the landscape is up there. In an odd twist, I know much more about the British and French political landscapes than the Canadian one. I know I'm not alone in this either, most of my friends are the same. Anyways, I didn't want to derail the thread, but felt others might find this interesting as well. I commend any foreigners who keep up with American politics. Of course if there is any group of people who understand American quirks the best, it would be Canadians, maybe that's why it's easy to follow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsad Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Just an observation, but I find it fascinating that greater than 50% of the responses to this thread are by Canadians. As a cultural observation I find this thread really interesting. I know who the Canadian Prime Minister is, but I really have no idea about his political leanings or what the landscape is up there. In an odd twist, I know much more about the British and French political landscapes than the Canadian one. I know I'm not alone in this either, most of my friends are the same. Anyways, I didn't want to derail the thread, but felt others might find this interesting as well. I commend any foreigners who keep up with American politics. Of course if there is any group of people who understand American quirks the best, it would be Canadians, maybe that's why it's easy to follow. Canada...Like America, just better! ;D Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 oddball, We dont really have a choice. Obama is pretty popular up here, after 8 years of Bush. Anyway, to the topic at hand: The boom bust cycle is deeply entrenched in the economy and every couple of generations we get a doozy. It doesn't matter who is President at this point. It is mostly beyond their control. The situation in the States will drive an entire generation of people toward lifelong austerity. Similar to the dirty 30s although by no means as severe. The end game will be higher taxes, greater regulation, and improving balance sheets for decades. I was reading the other day that US citizens have amassed 4 Trillion in savings. No wonder the US government has no trouble selling bonds. I lived through the nasty nineties in Canada. In the mid 90s I was having job interviews where the buggers were interviewing 50 people for one mid level position. I was highly qualified, had some work experience, was in a growing field, but few jobs existed. Now I am a frugal value investor. The knockon effects of the balance sheet recession will last decades. Over that time the governments will bail themselves out much like they did after WW2. As to Cardboards comments, that is another problem, altogether. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest FFHfan Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Canada...Like America, just better! ;D Cheers! That or Canada enjoys the circumstance of being a neighbor to America. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boilermaker75 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Parsad I don't think you understood me. What I meant by my comment was that we live in very very dangerous times when a large part of the electorate, specifically the younger generation think that people like Jon Stewart are so brilliant and then they demonstrate that they are just actors. If Stewart doesn't get the severity of our debts I can assure you his viewers have no clue. Same answer as before. Basically this is the same old inter-generational debate that we have every so often..."you young whipper snapper"..."you old guys are out of touch"...etc, etc. You do realize that the same arguments were made against the misunderstood, naive, belligerent, sophmoric youth of the 70's, and they ended up being some of the greatest capitalists in history. I don't see how this proportion of the electorate will be any different. Am I the only old guy here who isn't turning a shade of "old geezer"? Geez...I feel like Neil Young..."Old man, look at my life, I'm alot like you were!" ;D Cheers! I was not going to comment on this thread, but a Neil Young quote, I have been a huge fan for over 40 years, and I had to contribute something. Maybe another pertinent, but humorous quote, Sanderson Reed: "The empire is in peril." Allan Quatermain: "You're probably too young to know, but the empire is always in some kind of peril." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rkbabang Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Does anybody understand that since Obama has been office we have been adding $4B a day to our cumulative debt load? And how much was it during the Bush era? Oh..and there was no financial mess to account for before Obama's presidency? Anyway, it seems that Republicans will always be Republicans, Democrats will always be Democrats, and a tiny part of the electors will vote on one side or the other depending of the candidate.. 'Democrats did this'. 'Well, Republicans are just as bad, because they did that'. Back and forth, divide and conquer. If you stand back and look at it from a distance you realize where they differ is inconsequential and for anything that matters they are all basically the same. Regardless of what they call themselves, they are all the same just with a small variance of degree on certain small issues. Regardless of who wins there will be more war, higher debt, more taxes, and more government control over every aspect of our lives, from which drugs we can take, to how we run our businesses, to what healthcare is available to us, to how our children are educated. Yes the economy may grow despite all of this as it has in the past. These are small men doing small things, creating road blocks that the productive in society need to find ways around. The best description I've found of the whole process is that the market is a network and government is damage to the network which needs to be routed around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cardboard Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 "Obama is pretty popular up here, after 8 years of Bush." I think he is pretty popular to the majority of folks because of an image: peaceful, likeable, young, defender of universal healthcare and bringing hope and change. This is the early Obama or back in 2008/2009. Most of these folks don't follow politics and have no idea how Obamacare works, what he has done during his term or how bitter Obama looks today. Personally, I think he is very divisive and I really don't like the wind of class warfare that he has pushed around the world. What the U.S. president says or do has an impact around the world and I see the impact in my own province, dear old Quebec. It is ugly I tell you, not something that you ever want to see in your state or province and we are not at all in recessionary conditions! We have 3 leftists parties out here and the one that got elected is akin to Chavez. Based on what has been done so far, the goal seems to be: tax the rich, push for the French language so that the people are unable to move or learn what is going on elsewhere, and support with programs whatever constituency gives them votes: students, environmentalists, etc. Populism at his worse or communism if you will. Fortunately, the people are already waking up after just 2 months following the election and the opposition is getting ready to overturn this government. I can only imagine how bad it would have been if they had been a majority which looked like a possibility at some point on election night. So be careful what you wish for. While the U.S. and the rest of Canada is nowhere near Quebec in terms of socialism, I am afraid by the trend and the poverty that results from it over the long term. It won't do much to me since I am mobile, have pretty much left atmosphere (as described by Ericopoly) and will leave if things gets too much out of hand, but I like my fellow citizens and know that their well being won't be serve by giving them a bunch of carrots while these carrots are being paid by deficits that can't be possibly paid back. I also included a chart to show that we keep repeating pretty much the same mistakes overtime during times of duress. http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/01/news/economy/millionaire-taxes/index.html Cardboard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmori7 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Haha, Cardboard, ne t'exile pas, on a besoin de gens comme toi au Québec aussi pour faire contrepoids! Mais tu pousses un peu avec Chavez..on n'est pas rendu là! Sorry guys, I had to answer him in French! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uccmal Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Well Cardboard, Some Quebeckers do have a knack for shooting themselves in the foot. I cant understand the thinking. I worked with a bunch of guys in the early 90s in my age group, who grew up during the Levesque French Languange yrs. These guys were really struggling because they hadn't learned English at a young age. They were all trying to learn it in their 20s and 30s to improve their future employability. I felt for them, as my own attempts to learn French have been pretty dismal. Anyway, I think its a long way from medicare to PQ style socialism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LC Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Haha, Cardboard, ne t'exile pas, on a besoin de gens comme toi au Québec aussi pour faire contrepoids! Mais tu pousses un peu avec Chavez..on n'est pas rendu là! Sorry guys, I had to answer him in French! Thank you! I lived in Quebec for five years before moving back to New York and I miss very much the sound and cadence of the French language. Thanks again for the nostalgia! ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Personally, I think he is very divisive and I really don't like the wind of class warfare that he has pushed around the world. What the U.S. president says or do has an impact around the world and I see the impact in my own province, dear old Quebec. It is ugly I tell you, not something that you ever want to see in your state or province and we are not at all in recessionary conditions! We have 3 leftists parties out here and the one that got elected is akin to Chavez. I'm in Quebec too. Seems like there are many of us on this board...Maybe if we have critical mass we can have a meetup to cry in our beers or something. My first language is French, but I still find the political and economic situation in Quebec pretty depressing (not that the language that you were randomly born into should be used to define anyone, but I just want to point out that it's not only Anglos who are frustrated by how things are here)... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbaron Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Personally, I think he is very divisive and I really don't like the wind of class warfare that he has pushed around the world. What the U.S. president says or do has an impact around the world and I see the impact in my own province, dear old Quebec. It is ugly I tell you, not something that you ever want to see in your state or province and we are not at all in recessionary conditions! We have 3 leftists parties out here and the one that got elected is akin to Chavez. I'm in Quebec too. Seems like there are many of us on this board...Maybe if we have critical mass we can have a meetup to cry in our beers or something. My first language is French, but I still find the political and economic situation in Quebec pretty depressing (not that the language that you were randomly born into should be used to define anyone, but I just want to point out that it's not only Anglos who are frustrated by how things are here)... We should organize a get together one day. I'm up for Beers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jeffmori7 Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Personally, I think he is very divisive and I really don't like the wind of class warfare that he has pushed around the world. What the U.S. president says or do has an impact around the world and I see the impact in my own province, dear old Quebec. It is ugly I tell you, not something that you ever want to see in your state or province and we are not at all in recessionary conditions! We have 3 leftists parties out here and the one that got elected is akin to Chavez. I'm in Quebec too. Seems like there are many of us on this board...Maybe if we have critical mass we can have a meetup to cry in our beers or something. My first language is French, but I still find the political and economic situation in Quebec pretty depressing (not that the language that you were randomly born into should be used to define anyone, but I just want to point out that it's not only Anglos who are frustrated by how things are here)... We should organize a get together one day. I'm up for Beers... Yeah! We had some in Montreal with the people on this board this year (http://forum.entrepreneurboursier.com/) and it was great. It's the best french speaking forum out there for the Quebecois if you don't know it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liberty Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Heh. I always forget when I suggest these things that 90% of the people will be close to Montréal, so of course that's where the meeting would be, and I don't feel like driving 2h and dealing with MTL traffic... :P But this year I will make a big effort and try to go to the Fairfax annual meeting... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beerbaron Posted October 12, 2012 Share Posted October 12, 2012 Heh. I always forget when I suggest these things that 90% of the people will be close to Montréal, so of course that's where the meeting would be, and I don't feel like driving 2h and dealing with MTL traffic... :P But this year I will make a big effort and try to go to the Fairfax annual meeting... Liberty, get your ass in Montreal. The ladies are much nicer over here then Toronto. ;D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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