Is Europe becoming uninvestable?

[Luke]

16 hours ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

In light of SpaceX's accomplishment, it's worthwhile to consider how Europe approached rocketry as of late:

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/how-europe-screwed-up-its-rocket-program/

 

 

 

 

 

Thierry and his fellow regulators hard at work on the 300 page regulation Word doc 

 

Meanwhile, his nemesis Elon has been busy...

 

 

 

 

Yep, Elon alone brought internet service to a disaster area (after the government failed to), unveiled a new self-driving taxi + humanoid robots, launched a 232 foot rocket, and caught it on the way back down. Just himself, alone at his office. What do the haters say to that? What have they acomplished by themselves that is equivalent to that?! He is literally Chuck Norris, alone. 

Edited October 14 by Luke

[Dalal.Holdings]

37 minutes ago, Luke said:

Yep, Elon alone brought internet service to a disaster area (after the government failed to), unveiled a new self-driving taxi + humanoid robots, launched a 232 foot rocket, and caught it on the way back down. Just himself, alone at his office. What do the haters say to that? What have they acomplished by themselves that is equivalent to that?! He is literally Chuck Norris, alone. 

 

You're right. Real innovation comes from large groups of individuals (committees). Governance via committees forms the foundation of the EU and explains why they are the bastion of the world's innovation. I believe Steve Jobs also ran Apple with committees in charge and would routinely subvert his own vision in the face of them.

 

In fact, I think even Warren Buffett makes his investment decisions after consulting a committee full of individuals with extensive business and accounting degrees.

 

Here is a committee of highly specialized (and educated) "experts" delivering their moonshot that will bear the fruits of innovation for generations to come:

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 14 by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

Will Europe ever wake up ?

 

 

 

 

[Red Lion]

3 hours ago, Luke said:

Yep, Elon alone brought internet service to a disaster area (after the government failed to), unveiled a new self-driving taxi + humanoid robots, launched a 232 foot rocket, and caught it on the way back down. Just himself, alone at his office. What do the haters say to that? What have they acomplished by themselves that is equivalent to that?! He is literally Chuck Norris, alone. 

 

Seriously, I haven't ever invested in any of his businesses, but to listen to every halfwit progressive talk about how stupid Elon Musk is just blows my mind. 

[Luke]

1 hour ago, Red Lion said:

 

Seriously, I haven't ever invested in any of his businesses, but to listen to every halfwit progressive talk about how stupid Elon Musk is just blows my mind. 

Didnt say he is stupid, just gets too much credit

[Luke]

And i say this as someone who likes to listen to elon, to agree with many things he says and who is fascinated by what his companies put out! 

[John Hjorth]

3 hours ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

You're right. Real innovation comes from large groups of individuals (committees). Governance via committees forms the foundation of the EU and explains why they are the bastion of the world's innovation. I believe Steve Jobs also ran Apple with committees in charge and would routinely subvert his own vision in the face of them.

 

In fact, I think even Warren Buffett makes his investment decisions after consulting a committee full of individuals with extensive business and accounting degrees.

 

Here is a committee of highly specialized (and educated) "experts" delivering their moonshot that will bear the fruits of innovation for generations to come:

 

 

 

 

 

 

I consider it biased posting in this topic to continue by now bringing up Mr.  Breton while he has waived all rights, obligations and responsibilities in relation to the EU that he previously possessed.

 

If you check him up, you'll find out that he already had two men wearing ski masks and gloves and wielding hand guns breaking into his Paris home, beat him and locked him up along with his wife and their live-in chauffeur, stealing his wife's bling and some of his cash.

 

Apart from the fact that he still needs to have his hair cut, that must suffice for such a geriatric.

[Dalal.Holdings]

1 hour ago, John Hjorth said:

 

I consider it biased posting in this topic to continue by now bringing up Mr.  Breton while he has waived all rights, obligations and responsibilities in relation to the EU that he previously possessed.

 

If you check him up, you'll find out that he already had two men wearing ski masks and gloves and wielding hand guns breaking into his Paris home, beat him and locked him up along with his wife and their live-in chauffeur, stealing his wife's bling and some of his cash.

 

Apart from the fact that he still needs to have his hair cut, that must suffice for such a geriatric.

 

The post was about the pitfalls of being ruled by committees. I'm afraid the European Commission is exactly that.

[Dalal.Holdings]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-02/macron-warns-that-eu-needs-radical-change-is-lagging-china-us

 

It's clearly not a controversial opinion if even the French president says so

 

Quote

Speaking at the Berlin Global Dialogue, Macron said Washington and Beijing outstrip the EU in both economic output and investment, and Europe won’t be able to compete with other countries unless it moves quickly to complete a banking union and make global trade rules more fair.

 

Quote

“The EU could die, we are on a verge of a very important moment,” Macron said in a panel discussion with Bloomberg’s Stephanie Flanders. “Our former model is over — we are over-regulating and under-investing. In the two to three years to come, if we follow our classical agenda, we will be out of the market.”

 

Why don't they start where the problem originates--Brussels ?

[John Hjorth]

8 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-02/macron-warns-that-eu-needs-radical-change-is-lagging-china-us

 

It's clearly not a controversial opinion if even the French president says so

 

Why don't they start where the problem originates--Brussels ?

 

It will eventually happen, @Dalal.Holdings,

 

and things will be corrected.

 

The stubborn truth by now however is that many socialist or communist European politicians aren't willing to give up and give in, confronted with the reality, which they aren't able to understand, based on their out-of-date assumptions about the function of society. 

[UK]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-03/how-eu-s-anti-deforestation-regulation-eudr-ran-into-trouble

[Dalal.Holdings]

5 hours ago, UK said:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-03/how-eu-s-anti-deforestation-regulation-eudr-ran-into-trouble

The EUDR — another alphabet soup regulation innovation created by the EU.

There certainly is no shortage of innovation coming out of the european commission! They are the Steve Jobs of regulation

[Dalal.Holdings]

Am I the only one who thinks the EU imposing such an onerous system onto every company that sells in the region is insane? And with each piece of reg the punishment is up to a percentage of a company’s entire REVENUE???

[John Hjorth]

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

What's the source for your screen shot? Is this about wood?

[UK]

29 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

Am I the only one who thinks the EU imposing such an onerous system onto every company that sells in the region is insane? And with each piece of reg the punishment is up to a percentage of a company’s entire REVENUE???

 

All this now is postponed for a year since it apears nobody knows how to operate under all these new rules:))

 

Edited October 16 by UK

[Dalal.Holdings]

1 hour ago, John Hjorth said:

@Dalal.Holdings,

 

What's the source for your screen shot? Is this about wood?

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-03/how-eu-s-anti-deforestation-regulation-eudr-ran-into-trouble

 

If you do business in EU, you best comply with the EUDR, that's after you get around to GDPR (do you approve Cookies?) and don't forget the #AIAct then the DMA and finally DSA of course.

 

Innovation comes from standing up for "human rights", protecting our cookies on websites, doing whatever Greta Thungberg wants, and protecting indigenous people around the world (this from a continent with a prodigious colonizing history).

 

Oh and if you do not comply, we will take chunks of your revenue as penalty and don't forget about arbitrary "windfall taxes" whenever we feel like it.

 

Edited October 16 by Dalal.Holdings

[John Hjorth]

8 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-03/how-eu-s-anti-deforestation-regulation-eudr-ran-into-trouble

 

If you do business in EU, you best comply with the EUDR, that's after you get around to GDPR (do you approve Cookies?) and don't forget the #AIAct then the DMA and finally DSA of course.

 

Thank you, @Dalal.Holdings,

 

It reads as if things are on their way overboard in all kinds of regulatory *BS*. I wonder if this is about EU lobbyism by the European forestry industry. [I don't know.]

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

I personally think the forestry industry as such is interesting long term going forward.

 

The Swedish subsidiary Holmen AB, controlled by the Swedish investment holding company L. E. Lundbergföretagen AB, has released a physical book, available for free [not even p&p charged], called 'Future-smart forests' about the industry and it's modus operandi, for those here on CoBF interested.

[formthirteen]

   

Quote

 

Elon Musk is a ‘promoter of evil,’ EU rule-of-law chief says

“I’m really scared by digital platforms in bad hands,” Věra Jourová tells POLITICO.

 

 

Quote

 

Jourová led work on the General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), a landmark privacy regime that went into force in 2018 and remains one of the EU’s most famous — and infamous — laws.

 

Though the EU recently passed the Artificial Intelligence Act, the Digital Services Act and the Digital Markets Act, the GDPR often remains the main target of tech companies' ire, particularly because of how it is interpreted. The question of whether the law will need to be changed in the next five years is a key issue for incoming Commission tech chief Henna Virkkunen, Jourová said.

 

“I think in [terms of] GDPR, we will have to look again at how to better enforce under the principle of one continent, one law,” she said.

 

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/elon-musk-promoter-evil-vera-jourova-european-commission/

 

Quote

 

Europe’s privacy patrol is spoiling Big Tech’s AI party

 

New leadership in Dublin has put the EU’s privacy regulators on a collision course with Big Tech.

 

In the case of X, the Dublin regulator took the unprecedented step of asking Ireland’s High Court to order the social media network to suspend, restrict or prohibit its processing of personal data.

 

Italy’s privacy regulator intervened even earlier by banning OpenAI’s ChatGPT in the country in March 2023 — just as the release of the chatbot sent shockwaves across the tech sector.

 

It’s not just data protection law, either. Apple over the summer announced a new iPhone model powered by AI but is holding off on rolling it out in Europe because it needs to check if it would hold up against the EU’s new digital competition law, the Digital Markets Act.

EU’s ‘shadow legislator’

 

One of the main gripes of AI firms is that they don’t know which way regulators will rule on a given issue.

“Inconsistent and ever-evolving interpretations of the GDPR rules amount to legal uncertainty for businesses of any size, which impacts the EU’s overall capacity for digital innovation and growth,” said Claudia Canelles Quaroni of tech lobby group CCIA, whose members include Apple, Google, Meta and X.

 

 

https://www.politico.eu/article/europe-privacy-patrol-vengeance-block-ai-artificial-intelligence/

 

I wonder what kind of crisis the EU will have to go through to fix its issues. Most Europeans seem content with deindustrialization and clicking on cookie pop-ups to 'avoid the evils of Mr. Zuckerberg and Musk.' Surely shutting down a few more nuclear plants will save the planet and the EU from itself:

 

Spain confirms nuclear power phase-out, extends renewable projects deadlines

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/spain-confirms-nuclear-power-phase-out-extends-renewable-projects-deadlines-2023-12-27/

 

Meanwhile in the US:

 

Hungry for Energy, Amazon, Google and Microsoft Turn to Nuclear Power

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/10/16/business/energy-environment/amazon-google-microsoft-nuclear-energy.html

Edited October 17 by formthirteen

[Dalal.Holdings]

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-10-17/musk-s-empire-risks-being-targeted-by-eu-for-potential-x-fines

 

Doing business in the EU is becoming like doing business in some kleptocratic soviet style banana republic…

 

Quote

The European Union has warned X that it may calculate fines against the social-media platform by including revenue from Elon Musk’s other businesses, including Space Exploration Technologies Corp. and Neuralink Corp., an approach that would significantly increase the potential penalties for violating content moderation rules.

 

So they are going to fine SpaceX for so-called violations made by a separate company? Make it make sense??? Is there any rule of law or common sense legal system in the EU?

 

Quote

Under the EU’s Digital Services Act, the bloc can slap online platforms with fines of as much as 6% of their yearly global revenue for failing to tackle illegal content and disinformation or follow transparency rules. Regulators are considering whether sales from SpaceX, Neuralink, xAI and the Boring Company, in addition to revenue generated from the social network, should be included to determine potential fines against X, people familiar with the matter said, asking not to be identified because the information isn’t public.

 

Ah yes, the “innovative” anti-free speech DSA where now you charge fines as percentage of GLOBAL revenue (not just revenue earned in the EU) companies that are independent of X with different investors/stakeholders.

 

Europeans on the board, please tell me why this does not resemble in some form nationalization or state sponsored theft? Are you happy with such actions by the European Commission?

 

Quote

X would also have the opportunity to challenge any EU decision, but the final say rests with the commission, the people said. X didn’t reply to requests seeking comment. Musk has previously said on X that he will fight any DSA fine through “a very public battle in court.”

 

“The commission has final say” What about the court system? Does a legal system that protects property rights still exist in the EU?

 

Is the EU really happy being on the path of becoming a banana republic???

[Ulti]

https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2024-nato-armed-forces/?accessToken=eyJhbGciOiJIUzI1NiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCJ9.eyJzb3VyY2UiOiJTdWJzY3JpYmVyR2lmdGVkQXJ0aWNsZSIsImlhdCI6MTcyOTE3MTY5NSwiZXhwIjoxNzI5Nzc2NDk1LCJhcnRpY2xlSWQiOiJTTEZLSUdUMEcxS1cwMCIsImJjb25uZWN0SWQiOiIxRDMwNURBMDVBNjE0QkE5Qjk1OEZDRkE5OEQ3Qjc3OCJ9.-OKgUTudbYEQL1OuvrDEnSjovI5vxNIBG_E-CIlUq2o

 

Why Europe Is Unprepared to Defend Itself

Hopefully readable and apologize if in the wrong subject...But it seems to me the combination of the deindustrialization, the cancer called European bureaucracy,

and inability to defend itself bodes very poorly and makes Europe for the most part pretty uninvestable.

 

 

https://www.pressreader.com/usa/antelope-valley-press/20241017/281629605732141

Hopefully this opens up.. George Wills latest column...politics aside ..Europe doesn't seem to be ready, is not getting ready and is like an ostrich with its head in the sand.

 

[Dalal.Holdings]

The European Commission bureaucrats, in their infinite wisdom, are not aware that global investors (such as the prominent VC below) watch these headlines and form an opinion about the bloc that will affect the flow of capital into/out of the Eurozone. Similar to CCP purge of Jack Ma, there is a reflexivity to these things. They demonstrate staggering levels of hubris while it seems no one in Europe really is willing to take a stand against this nonsense.

 

It's probably because they all pretty much hate Elon anyway, so what's the harm if the rule of law and protection of property rights get thrown out in their fight against him, right?

 

 

Edited Thursday at 11:26 PM by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

So far, none of the European members of this board have addressed the EU's proposed actions against SpaceX/Neuralink in their efforts to get at X.

 

I guess it indicates to me that most European businesspeople/investors are truly checked out of what the European Commission is up to and explains why the EC can do whatever they want with impunity, even if it ultimately destroys the competitiveness of the Eurozone.

 

The European business/investor community just does not care. If this happened in the United States, the business/investment community would be up in arms. But here in the U.S., we have actual property rights embedded in our legal system so there's that.

 

And it does appear probable that a second Trump Presidency would have a second front in its trade war:

 

Edited Saturday at 02:12 AM by Dalal.Holdings

[UK]

13 hours ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

So far, none of the European members of this board have addressed the EU's proposed actions against SpaceX/Neuralink in their efforts to get at X.

 

I guess it indicates to me that most European businesspeople/investors are truly checked out of what the European Commission is up to and explains why the EC can do whatever they want with impunity, even if it ultimately destroys the competitiveness of the Eurozone.

 

The European business/investor community just does not care. If this happened in the United States, the business/investment community would be up in arms. But here in the U.S., we have actual property rights embedded in our legal system so there's that.

 

And it does appear probable that a second Trump Presidency would have a second front in its trade war:

 

 

How would you like it to be addressed:)? First of all EU is not a country yet and thanks god EU commisions role is very limited and its policies have to be accepted by member states first. Of course EUs biurocracy sometimes is a sorry mess, by itself EU is unfinished project (no common budget), national interests and politics of its members are divided, so really important stuff is being done only in times of bad crises. Yet at the same time EU works in general, it brings peace and relative prosperity for ~400 M people, free trade union works, free movement almost works, EU passport is as great as US I would argue. Even some regulations or policies are really good and some things, perhaps healthcare system in general, are even better than in US? Or you can count 3-5 places in EU with more or less zero capital gain tax I think:). People are also getting fed up with bad stuff, especially with immigration (look at Sweden, Poland, even Germany recently) and green transition (as they realise its costs) and are voting accordingly, but this is slower process than in US, as it has to filter through national elections. But things are changing as we speak, just look at recent asylium seeking changes, reconsidering of green transition etc. Btw I believe EU enlargement also worked so far, as it almost assures newly joint member gets imediate economical benefits and its governance is not derailed by some foreign influence (just look at Belarus or even Moldava currenly). And old members get new market or cheap labour. So all these regulations and absurdities...I quess you just have to take it with what is good about EU, the system is not as great as in US, but it is not so bad either, and also importantly varies/you can choose where to invest by a country. And some bad cases are not so different from US perhaps, e.g. what would you say if I asked why you are not doing anything about FTC and Lina Khan or not fixing US immigration system etc:)? Now, having said this, I think US has enormous advantages, such as demographic, geography, millitary might, reserve currency, constructive state competition, abundant energy and food resources etc, so else equal, the choice for the next 10 or 20 years is quite obvious to me. Borrow in EUR and go long US and USD, without overplaying this too much:)

 

Edited Saturday at 03:58 PM by UK

[John Hjorth]

I personally agree wholeheartedly with @UKs post above, a post I think is very good and nuanced, including that there are a lot of national and local shades and nuances to the overall picture, that are important.

 

I have already by specific examples [specific European companies] proved, so proof by several counter examples, that despite all that has been posted here in this topic about Europe, there is absolutely no institution, organ or entity here in Europe that is able in any way to hold down to the ground, stop and/or passivate European true innovation, simply because the people involved in it don't give a f**k about bureaucracy and stupidy in regulation, with a good deal of help by the press exposing it by examples, putting bureaucrats and politicians on overwork for correcting doing and waisting time etc. of others on dumb and stupid things.

 

However I personally give in on that we in Europe have a major problem about absolutely meaningless and crazy subsidies to agriculture and food production from the EU, financed by state contributions to the EU finances and budget, that actually works as one huge redistribution mechanism, keeping European agriculture and food production businesses alive, that should go bankrupt and get closed as non-competitive and unprofitable, almost like in former Russian plan economics under the communism. 

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Australia years back also had such a bad system, sick, like a form of cancer, where Australian politics at a point in time decided to clean it up, by simply removing all subsidies and let prices on products steer by markets mechanims. Naturally, living hell broke loose, creating a carnage doing so, but after a short time, all things eventually stabilized, and efficicient and skilled farmers regained their independence and dignity by actually as selfemployed making their own money, the really good of them really big bucks, also to invest in their businesses for the future, in stead of all of them having a false status as selfemployed, while in reality living on state welfare, defined by a sick and crazy regulatory environment.

Edited Saturday at 09:54 AM by John Hjorth

[Spekulatius]

Since I am dual citizen, I guess I have two dogs in this fight. I can say that overall, the EU is much better now than before Schengen. There is now a free exchange of goods, services , a common currency. You can work pretty much in any country you want and I have several colleagues from school who took advantage of this and work in Spain etc. Go in any larger company and  see many different nationalities  from the EU working there next to each other. 30 years ago that wasn’t the case.

 

I lived in a town 50 km away from to the Luxembourg border. To get to Luxembourg you had to go through a border crossing m sometimes get your trunk searched or wait if there is a line, exchange currency for a 2% fee (some stores did except German DM other didn’t ). Then if you wanted to go to France from there (another 50km or even less) you had to do it all peer again.

It’s like living on the east cost and going through a border control and exchanging your money every time you cross another state. I rather have the cure t system with the Euro where I just drive through the border, can get a rents, and not worry about different insurance in differnt counties.

 

That said, the bureaucracy aspect is crazy. It what I call the French approach of bureaucracy with the eggheads from their elite schools (Lagarde is a typical example of this ) trying to be really clever about how to regulate big strategies (climate change)  and companies and make the world a better place one regulation at a time and worse telling how to do it instead of just setting goals and let the market and the people figure out how to do it.

 

That said, I would take these warts any time if the alternative is to go back 40 years.

Edited Saturday at 12:15 PM by Spekulatius