Is Europe becoming uninvestable?

[Spekulatius]

[Dalal.Holdings]

2 hours ago, frommi said:

The avg german gas price is double in 2023/2024 than what it was from 2014->2020 and there was a huge spike (10x the avg of 2014->2020) in 2022 when putin invaded ukraine.
Lots of companies (for example VW, BMW, Thyssen or BASF) produced their own power with the gas because it was cheaper than from the grid.

According to the AFD the Syrians ARE the problem. These people came in waves to germany and typically as long as you don't have your refugee status approved you are not allowed to work. Germany bureaucracy is VERY slow in processing these claims. That leaves these people not being able to work, what do you think they do all day long? Of course they get on wrong paths. But no political party blames this as the root cause, the only answer is send the refugees home or block them from coming into the country, which is also not possible because they have a right to get asyl.

 

And to the EV production, right now there is no other country that can compete with the prices at which you can produce these cars in china. China copied everything from german production facilities build in their countries, perfected it and now are subsidizing their own car production.

 

Well you are right in some respects, but also IMO wrong on a few things:

 

-- There is one non-Chinese company that can successfully produce EVs, it is American and has production plants in U.S., China, and Germany. Why does Tesla exist? Because America has fewer regulations and allows startups to thrive. In Europe you cannot start a new automaker without adhering to all kinds of crazy rules around labor, environment, etc. Even building the Tesla Berlin factory required cutting thru LOTS of red tape

-- No one has a "right" to asylum. It should be an application process and not everyone automatically is entitled to it

-- Why does Germany not allow these people to work? Why does it allow them to be eligible for generous handouts that keep them dependent on the state? It also incentivizes them to NOT work because the amount of aid is more if you earn less money from employment... do they understand how incentives work???

-- Germany (and the EU) should have realized that China would steal their IP and use it against them. The only politician who voiced this was Trump. Those like Merkel pretended it wasn't true because they wanted to support "free trade" and globalization while China never played by the rules. Now German auto reaps what it sowed thanks to naive EU leaders like Merkel, Lagarde, etc

 

@Spekulatius I'm not sure Turkish immigrants have integrated as well in Germany as minorities in the USA. I think Turkish immigrants are less assimilated than U.S. immigrant populations which you find employed throughout from the board to the CEO down to lower level workers en masse at U.S. firms. There are few examples I can think of with Turkish immigrants in Germany (BioNtech).

 

https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/german-police-clear-protest-site-tesla-gigafactory-2024-11-19/

 

Quote

Tesla plant protesters hold out in trees as German police clear camp

Too many crazy ideological protestors who have no idea what they are doing in Europe and who the politicians often bend over backward to please. Greta is just one of them 

Edited Saturday at 09:18 PM by Dalal.Holdings

[Baklava]

@Dalal.Holdings What makes you think that Germany's nearly 3m people with  Turkish roots have not integrated well? Have you ever lived here?

 

Actually, the most recent immigration (see Spekulatius' bar chart) from Turkey are the best educated Turkish immigrants we've ever had. They are mostly fleeing Erdoğan. 

Edited Saturday at 09:45 PM by Baklava

[Dinar]

4 minutes ago, Baklava said:

@Dalal.Holdings What makes you think that Germany's nearly 3m people with  Turkish roots have not integrated well? Have you ever lived here?

Can you provide comparison between people with Turkish roots (excluding Jews and Greeks who immigrated from Turkey) and ethnic German population in the following areas:

a) Crime

b) Educational levels

c) Income

d) % of welfare and other social support by age levels

e) Terrorist acts.

 

Thank you.  I have been to Germany a number of times, and I have friends who live there.  

[cubsfan]

8 minutes ago, Baklava said:

@Dalal.Holdings What makes you think that Germany's nearly 3m people with  Turkish roots have not integrated well? Have you ever lived here?

 

Actually, the most recent immigration (see Spekulatius' bar chart) from Turkey are the best educated Turkish immigrants we've ever had. They are mostly fleeing Erdoğan. 

 

 I can't say for sure about Germany, but I suspect he's right.

 

It's certainly the case in France & England that radical Islam is destroying the country and increasing the violence.

[Baklava]

17 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Can you provide comparison between people with Turkish roots (excluding Jews and Greeks who immigrated from Turkey) and ethnic German population in the following areas:

a) Crime

b) Educational levels

c) Income

d) % of welfare and other social support by age levels

e) Terrorist acts.

 

Thank you.  I have been to Germany a number of times, and I have friends who live there.  

 

Your first sentence is already not correct. I am not aware of any people with Turkish roots either being Greek or Jewish that migrated directly into Germany from Turkey in the 1960/70s. As far as I know both groups already migrated to Greece or Israel some time in the 1920s/1930s.

 

On crime statistics the background of people are not disclosed as far as I know. %-wise It might be slightly higher compared to the ethnic German population. 

On b)-c) I would say the Turkish population is still catching up but it is improving from to year to year. But you have to take here into consideration that not Turkey's intelligentzia migrated to Germany in the 1960/70s. Those were people from Turkey's poorest regions.

e) I would say these mostly go back to people with Arab roots.

Edited Saturday at 10:05 PM by Baklava

[Baklava]

@Dalal.Holdings On your point about Biontech being the only great achievement for people with a Turkish background in Germany. In terms of market capitalization I give you right.

But if you put this into perspective with your previous comments regarding the almost non-existance of successful European companies being founded in the recent history, I would say the Biontech case is a home-run

[Spekulatius]

1 hour ago, Baklava said:

 

Your first sentence is already not correct. I am not aware of any people with Turkish roots either being Greek or Jewish that migrated directly into Germany from Turkey in the 1960/70s. As far as I know both groups already migrated to Greece or Israel some time in the 1920s/1930s.

 

On crime statistics the background of people are not disclosed as far as I know. %-wise It might be slightly higher compared to the ethnic German population. 

On b)-c) I would say the Turkish population is still catching up but it is improving from to year to year. But you have to take here into consideration that not Turkey's intelligentzia migrated to Germany in the 1960/70s. Those were people from Turkey's poorest regions.

e) I would say these mostly go back to people with Arab roots.

Yes, the people from Turkey that came to Germany were mostly doing the jobs that really nobody wanted - Trash service, the dirty work in steels mills. Ten years later in the 80’s they had small shops and business and their kids were going to German schools and spoke German, unlike their parents who spoke only broken German. Another 10 year and many make it to Universities and they have better jobs.

 

How do you think integration happens - just flip a switch and you become American and Gamers etc Did the Irish or Italians or Hispanics do this in the US? 
 

It takes a generation to really integrate which keens the 2nd generation who becomes fully integrated. the Turkish immigrant of the late 60’s and 70’s had a tougher time because their curvature is more different and they were less educated than the Italians or Spanish wave that came to Germany first. However, eventually they get there (its still a work in progress).

[Dinar]

1 hour ago, Baklava said:

 

Your first sentence is already not correct. I am not aware of any people with Turkish roots either being Greek or Jewish that migrated directly into Germany from Turkey in the 1960/70s. As far as I know both groups already migrated to Greece or Israel some time in the 1920s/1930s.

 

On crime statistics the background of people are not disclosed as far as I know. %-wise It might be slightly higher compared to the ethnic German population. 

On b)-c) I would say the Turkish population is still catching up but it is improving from to year to year. But you have to take here into consideration that not Turkey's intelligentzia migrated to Germany in the 1960/70s. Those were people from Turkey's poorest regions.

e) I would say these mostly go back to people with Arab roots.

Just because you do not know, does not mean these people do not exist.  I know people who moved to the US from Turkey with Jewish and Greek roots in the 1970s.    You clearly do not know relevant statistics or they do not align with your worldview.  The issue is not poverty, it is culture and values.  There are plenty of people who moved from China/Korea/India from very poor regions in the 1980s and 1990s and their kids today graduate from Yale/Harvard and run companies.  I went to school with Chinese kids in 1990s in NYC whose parents were illiterate, and yet these kids became doctors and lawyers.  Today children of Asian immigrants out earn Whites in the US.  

The issue is that you do not care to provide any proof for your assertions.  The other issue is that Asian culture (Indian, Chinese, Korean) values education and Turkish culture does not.  There was a Persian civilization but not a Turkic one.  Hell, Uzbekistan has statues of Tamerlane, a brutal degenerate who built a tower of 50K heads.  Modern Turks came from Central Asia.  Education was not ever valued by the Turks.  

Different cultures have different values.  You will be treated much better as a guest by Turks or Arabs than by Germans.  Hospitality is a cultural tradition in the Middle East, education and hard work are not.  

 

[Baklava]

31 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Just because you do not know, does not mean these people do not exist.  I know people who moved to the US from Turkey with Jewish and Greek roots in the 1970s.    You clearly do not know relevant statistics or they do not align with your worldview.  The issue is not poverty, it is culture and values.  There are plenty of people who moved from China/Korea/India from very poor regions in the 1980s and 1990s and their kids today graduate from Yale/Harvard and run companies.  I went to school with Chinese kids in 1990s in NYC whose parents were illiterate, and yet these kids became doctors and lawyers.  Today children of Asian immigrants out earn Whites in the US.  

The issue is that you do not care to provide any proof for your assertions.  The other issue is that Asian culture (Indian, Chinese, Korean) values education and Turkish culture does not.  There was a Persian civilization but not a Turkic one.  Hell, Uzbekistan has statues of Tamerlane, a brutal degenerate who built a tower of 50K heads.  Modern Turks came from Central Asia.  Education was not ever valued by the Turks.  

Different cultures have different values.  You will be treated much better as a guest by Turks or Arabs than by Germans.  Hospitality is a cultural tradition in the Middle East, education and hard work are not.  

 

 

Well, I was referring to Germany with people who moved from Turkey with Jewish and Greek roots. The majority of both ethnic groups moved out in the time periods I mentioned. See screenshots. 

 

Your comparison is flawed. You simply cannot compare the integration process of ethnic groups in the US with the integration process here in Germany due to multiple reasons. Your system is different, distance to countries where people migrated from and people's intentions to return to their country of origin. The right comparison would be to compare the integration of Turks in Germany with other ethnicities in Germany.

 

And to be honest I don't see Turk's in Germany being less integrated than their peers from Italy, Spain or Yugoslavia that migrated around the same timeframe 1960/70s. As Spekulatius pointed the younger generations attend universities and provide their fair share to society. I don't believe that the share of those within the Turkish community is less than with their peers descending from the same cohort that migrated in the 1960/70s. (edit)

 

So, you wouldn't count the Turks as successors of the Ottomans? Just referring to your statement about civilizations.

Edited Sunday at 12:24 AM by Baklava

[Dalal.Holdings]

53 minutes ago, Spekulatius said:

Yes, the people from Turkey that came to Germany were mostly doing the jobs that really nobody wanted - Trash service, the dirty work in steels mills. Ten years later in the 80’s they had small shops and business and their kids were going to German schools and spoke German, unlike their parents who spoke only broken German. Another 10 year and many make it to Universities and they have better jobs.

 

How do you think integration happens - just flip a switch and you become American and Gamers etc Did the Irish or Italians or Hispanics do this in the US? 
 

It takes a generation to really integrate which keens the 2nd generation who becomes fully integrated. the Turkish immigrant of the late 60’s and 70’s had a tougher time because their curvature is more different and they were less educated than the Italians or Spanish wave that came to Germany first. However, eventually they get there (its still a work in progress).

 

The asians in the U.S. integrate much faster because the H-1 program brings in highly educated talent. They start off as high earning middle class in the U.S. --> faster integration. Making people start at the bottom takes many generations to integrate. If you bring in refugees who can't work and are automatically enrolled in welfare programs, it will take even longer because they will become used to the handouts. In the U.S., the working class immigrants are not given such handouts and so they have no choice but to work which leads to faster integration. In European countries, you have neighborhoods of immigrants where large % don't need to work thanks to a social safety net that's too generous

 

I've lived in a northern German city for a short period of time and my recollection was the Turkish lived mostly in one area of a city, I saw few who lived among the general population. Perhaps that has changed since I was there

 

It does seem that there is integration in some areas though:

 

https://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/18-lawmakers-of-turkish-descent-win-seat-in-germanys-bundestag-168214

 

I just think Europe is worse at it than the U.S.

Edited Sunday at 12:25 AM by Dalal.Holdings

[Baklava]

53 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Just because you do not know, does not mean these people do not exist.  I know people who moved to the US from Turkey with Jewish and Greek roots in the 1970s.    You clearly do not know relevant statistics or they do not align with your worldview.  The issue is not poverty, it is culture and values.  There are plenty of people who moved from China/Korea/India from very poor regions in the 1980s and 1990s and their kids today graduate from Yale/Harvard and run companies.  I went to school with Chinese kids in 1990s in NYC whose parents were illiterate, and yet these kids became doctors and lawyers.  Today children of Asian immigrants out earn Whites in the US.  

The issue is that you do not care to provide any proof for your assertions.  The other issue is that Asian culture (Indian, Chinese, Korean) values education and Turkish culture does not.  There was a Persian civilization but not a Turkic one.  Hell, Uzbekistan has statues of Tamerlane, a brutal degenerate who built a tower of 50K heads.  Modern Turks came from Central Asia.  Education was not ever valued by the Turks.  

Different cultures have different values.  You will be treated much better as a guest by Turks or Arabs than by Germans.  Hospitality is a cultural tradition in the Middle East, education and hard work are not.  

 

 

As you are stressing the education topic I will make a comparison that would not be flawed in terms of integrating into German society. If you would compare the integration process of Turks vs. Russians, that arrived in 1990s, I will be the first to admit that the Russians are leapfrogging the Turks. But as with everything there are reasons for it. The Russian immigrants consist of two major groups: Russians with German roots and Jewish people. The language advantage and cultural proximity that Germans with Russian roots (as we call them "Russlanddeutsche") naturally let them already in the 2nd generation to surpass Turks of the 3rd generations. The Russian Jews also have achieved outstanding results. Here the reasons are multifold. Usually their parents already went through higher education in the soviet union and they are as you know putting a lot of value on education. Their parents might have worked as cab drivers or museum security guards (due to very hard acknowledgement process of Soviet degrees) but their children easily leapfrogged 3rd generation Turks.

 

But in order to understand why the integration process of Turks was slower than with the Russians, you would also have to consider what Spekulatius mentioned above.

[frommi]

8 hours ago, Dinar said:

Syrians are not refugees, they are economic migrants.  Had they been fleeing persecution, they would have applied for asylum in Turkey or any of the other countries they had to cross to get to Germany.  They are also mostly young men of fighting age.  Invaders yes, asylum seekers - no.  

Examples of Countries Often Considered Unsafe

• Syria: Due to ongoing civil war, severe destruction, and persecution.
• Afghanistan: Taliban rule, restrictions on women, and targeted violence.
• Ukraine: War with Russia

You can't deny people coming from these countries at the border, because of the united nations refugee convention from 1951.
Ensure asylum seekers have access to fair processes to assess their claims.

• Provide refugees with at least the same basic rights as other foreigners residing in their territory.
• Not expel or return individuals to territories where their lives or freedoms are at risk.

The time it takes to process an asylum claim in Germany varies depending on the individual case, the country of origin, and administrative factors. On average, the process can take anywhere from several months to over a year.

Btw. this stuff all comes from ChatGPT, i didnt make it up. So these people will at least be in the country until the claims are processed and NO political party can do something about it.

[cubsfan]

9 hours ago, frommi said:

Examples of Countries Often Considered Unsafe

• Syria: Due to ongoing civil war, severe destruction, and persecution.
• Afghanistan: Taliban rule, restrictions on women, and targeted violence.
• Ukraine: War with Russia

You can't deny people coming from these countries at the border, because of the united nations refugee convention from 1951.
Ensure asylum seekers have access to fair processes to assess their claims.

• Provide refugees with at least the same basic rights as other foreigners residing in their territory.
• Not expel or return individuals to territories where their lives or freedoms are at risk.

The time it takes to process an asylum claim in Germany varies depending on the individual case, the country of origin, and administrative factors. On average, the process can take anywhere from several months to over a year.

Btw. this stuff all comes from ChatGPT, i didnt make it up. So these people will at least be in the country until the claims are processed and NO political party can do something about it.

 

Yeah, the thing is - their is no war in Turkey, Jordan, Egypt and many of their neighbors.

 

So the logical question is - why do their Muslim brothers not extend asylum to their brothers?

[John Hjorth]

41 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

Yeah, the thing is - there's is no war in Turkey, Jordan, Egypt and many of their neighbors.

 

So the logical question is - why do their Muslim brothers not extend asylum to their brothers?

 

Mike [ @cubsfan ],

 

In a way, I really appreciate your take on this!  I think it is about who you want to be isen't always free. [Perhaps 'want' here should be replaced with 'decide', also meaning it's about money in a societal household.]

[cubsfan]

15 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

 

Mike [ @cubsfan ],

 

In a way, I really appreciate your take on this!  I think it is about who you want to be isen't always free. [Perhaps 'want' here should be replaced with 'decide', also meaning it's about money in a societal household.]

 

@John Hjorth  Happy New Year John!  My point is not understanding the ingratitude of immigrant guests.  When Europe extends genorosity to immigrants - that behavior is returned with social unrest. The identical situation is happening here in the USA, to a smaller degree.

 

Yet - the Middle East countries want nothing to do with the "refugee problem".

They know it brings waves of social unrest when it is out of control. Now the Europeans are finding that out.

[Dalal.Holdings]

10 hours ago, frommi said:

Examples of Countries Often Considered Unsafe

• Syria: Due to ongoing civil war, severe destruction, and persecution.
• Afghanistan: Taliban rule, restrictions on women, and targeted violence.
• Ukraine: War with Russia

You can't deny people coming from these countries at the border, because of the united nations refugee convention from 1951.
Ensure asylum seekers have access to fair processes to assess their claims.

• Provide refugees with at least the same basic rights as other foreigners residing in their territory.
• Not expel or return individuals to territories where their lives or freedoms are at risk.

The time it takes to process an asylum claim in Germany varies depending on the individual case, the country of origin, and administrative factors. On average, the process can take anywhere from several months to over a year.

Btw. this stuff all comes from ChatGPT, i didnt make it up. So these people will at least be in the country until the claims are processed and NO political party can do something about it.

 

At any given time throughout history, there have been countless countries with civil war, warlords, persecution, etc. Even right now, that is not limited to just Syria, Afghanistan, and Ukraine, but a wide swath of countries. Why is it the responsibility of developed countries to automatically provide safe haven to anyone seeking it? That leads to overloading of these countries and many small towns, resentment, racism, and perhaps even far worse down the line. It is entirely impractical.

 

And now that Assad has fallen in Syria, are you okay with sending all the Syrians back and revoking their status as refugees/asylum seekers? How does this program work in reality (not in theory)?

 

Edited Sunday at 03:57 PM by Dalal.Holdings

[cubsfan]

6 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

At any given time throughout history, there have been countless countries with civil war, warlords, persecution, etc. Even right now, that is not limited to just Syria, Afghanistan, and Ukraine, but a wide swath of countries. Why is it the responsibility of developed countries to automatically provide safe haven to anyone seeking it? That leads to overloading of these countries and many small towns, resentment, racism, and perhaps even far worse down the line. It is entirely impractical.

 

And now that Assad has fallen in Syria, are you okay with sending all the Syrians back and revoking their status as refugees/asylum seekers? How does this program work in reality (not in theory)?

 

 

Importantly - these decisions are made by leaders that shield themselves from the consequences of their bad decisions.  Those leaders live in gated communities, don't use the overwhelmed schools or public healthcare services, and have armed protection. Those leaders are not going to live in or near the public housing complexes where the refugees are dumped - nor are they going to send their children to the same schools. You just see this play out over and over.

[frommi]

40 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

And now that Assad has fallen in Syria, are you okay with sending all the Syrians back and revoking their status as refugees/asylum seekers? How does this program work in reality (not in theory)?

 

When Syria is considered safe (which is not sure at the moment), i am ok with sending them back when they have no work in germany. Even the SPD which is one of the more leftist parties will do this, i think this is common sense. As is helping people that need help. 
And to the gated community and armed protection, we don't have such wierd things in germany. We also don't run around with guns or knives like you guys in the US .

[John Hjorth]

1 hour ago, cubsfan said:

 

@John Hjorth  Happy New Year John!  My point is not understanding the ingratitude of immigrant guests.  When Europe extends genorosity to immigrants - that behavior is returned with social unrest. The identical situation is happening here in the USA, to a smaller degree.

 

Yet - the Middle East countries want nothing to do with the "refugee problem".

They know it brings waves of social unrest when it is out of control. Now the Europeans are finding that out.

 

Thanks, Mike [ @cubsfan ], and Happy New Year to you, too! ,

 

It's complicated, and then not at all :

 

You meet your fellow human being in dire straits from another country in eye height, and provide help, to get along, at modest means, not unconditionally, but under condition of compliance for rules of national generally accepted behavior, perhaps as described in the national criminal code.

 

Some stay, and comply. Some stay, and build their life up again, from ground up. Some stay, and comply during stay, and then go back to where they came from, when judged right for them.

 

And then some don't comply. They are dealt with in the justice system, it's costly, and it takes a lot of time, but in the end, if serious enough, they are returned to where they came from, with Danish escorte to get there.

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

Mike [ @cubsfan ], Here in Denmark, we have had court cases of the public against maladjusted and unadapted young criminal persons, foreign second generation, who have by court verdict been expelled to their socalled 'homeland', [perhaps they have even never visited it!]. Does that make sense? 

 

Giving anybody and everybody eligibe of l the benefit of doubt to meet them in eyeheight, with preserverance of their dignity, is a serious, and costly, matter.

 

 - - - o 0 o - - -

 

And Mike, it's, to me not solved by building walls.

Edited Sunday at 04:59 PM by John Hjorth

[cubsfan]

I wish you all the best in Europe with you assimilation issues. You've taken on an enormous burden, so I hope you all can keep your way of life and avoid social unrest.

 

My in-laws in France (wife's family) are very unhappy about how it is all going.  Sweden's crime rates look awful. The UK looks precarious. From the outsider looking in - Germany looks bad.

I've no clue about Denmark or the rest.

 

For the USA - France & the UK look like a preview of what is coming here. Fortunately, our new President will make every effort to reverse it and stop the destruction of the country. Mexico and others must serve their citizens, as they have failed them: without the US escape valve, those governments would be in danger of falling.

 

Twenty some years ago, at a Wesco Meeting in Pasadena, Charlie Munger was asked what he feared most in the USA in regards to what might put our society in trouble. I was taken aback when he said "social unrest" - and I thought that was a strange comment, as that was never going to happen here. It happened in the 1960's when I was a kid - and I remember that period well. But we were well beyond that period - and so it couldn't happen again.

 

Little did I know how insightful Munger really was, until the last few years.

[backtothebeach]

I agree with the discussion, but get your facts straight, almost 4 out of 5 Syrian refugees did not end up in Europe. Turkey took a huge influx.

 

(Source Perplexity)

In 2024, the top 10 countries hosting the most Syrian refugees and their numbers are:

Turkey: 3,112,683

.Lebanon: 774,697 (up to 1.5 million including unregistered)

.Germany: 716,728

.Iraq: 286,099

.Egypt: 156,465

.Austria: 97,939

.Sweden: 86,956

.Netherlands: 65,622

.Greece: 50,759

.Sudan: Hosts an unspecified number of Syrians among its refugee population

[Dalal.Holdings]

10 minutes ago, backtothebeach said:

I agree with the discussion, but get your facts straight, almost 4 out of 5 Syrian refugees did not end up in Europe. Turkey took a huge influx.

 

(Source Perplexity)

In 2024, the top 10 countries hosting the most Syrian refugees and their numbers are:

Turkey: 3,112,683

.Lebanon: 774,697 (up to 1.5 million including unregistered)

.Germany: 716,728

.Iraq: 286,099

.Egypt: 156,465

.Austria: 97,939

.Sweden: 86,956

.Netherlands: 65,622

.Greece: 50,759

.Sudan: Hosts an unspecified number of Syrians among its refugee population

 

And the neighbors of a troubled country should be the ones to take in the most refugees. After all, this will incentivize Syria's neighbors to work towards a stable Syria

[John Hjorth]

To me, you've got it right above, Mike [ @cubsfan ],

 

For Denmark, I think that I should add, that a new form / kind of criminality [drug related] seen lately here, is Swedish teenagers [<-] entering Denmark, to take out [by gunning down their marks] for a ridiculous low fee, as a 'job'. [I think it means news paper routes are totally out of favour, fast money is the way to go! - you know!], all while I am not sure this is related to this topc.

 

-Absolutely crazy stuff!

[cubsfan]

15 minutes ago, backtothebeach said:

I agree with the discussion, but get your facts straight, almost 4 out of 5 Syrian refugees did not end up in Europe. Turkey took a huge influx.

 

(Source Perplexity)

In 2024, the top 10 countries hosting the most Syrian refugees and their numbers are:

Turkey: 3,112,683

.Lebanon: 774,697 (up to 1.5 million including unregistered)

.Germany: 716,728

.Iraq: 286,099

.Egypt: 156,465

.Austria: 97,939

.Sweden: 86,956

.Netherlands: 65,622

.Greece: 50,759

.Sudan: Hosts an unspecified number of Syrians among its refugee population

 

@backtothebeach Point taken.

 

But Erdogan and Turkey have plenty of room for Sunnis after the very successful ethinic cleansing of Christians, Kurds and Armenians.  

 

Nobody does it better than Erdogan.