Is Europe becoming uninvestable?

[Dalal.Holdings]

1 hour ago, Dinar said:

For most normal people, spending $80K per annum on health insurance that doesn't cover anything is a route to bankruptcy.  

 

$80K per Annum??? Are you just making up numbers now? Do you know what out of pocket maximums are? Do you know what the actual costs of insurance are for Americans ?

[Dalal.Holdings]

17 minutes ago, TwoCitiesCapital said:

 

It quite regularly is....and I live in the US

 

 

+1 

 

 

I pay something like $1,200/yr for my personal medical premiums. My employer pays the remaining $8-9k. It is a high deductible plan with a $7k deductible. 

 

I'm 35 and haven't spent $7k on total medical expenses over the last 14 years combined. And yet somehow it costs $8-9k/yr to insure me even after I've agreed to cover the first $7k.  

 

The US medical system is f*cking bogus...

 

$7K on medical expenses over 14 years ($500/year) is a travesty? How much did you spend on owning a car? How much did you spend on plumbers and vacations over this time ?

 

Your expenses relative to U.S. GDP per capita of $80k/year are not abhorrent, certainly not going to drive you into bankruptcy...

 

Edited 19 hours ago by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

6 minutes ago, Malmqky said:

Do you live in the US by chance?

 

I know multiple people who have had to declare bankruptcy due to medical expenses.

 

An example is my mother (divorced from my father), who had a brain tumor when I was a child.

 

Yes I live in the U.S. With the ACA in place (having insurance), if you need brain tumor surgery, you would not go bankrupt today.

 

The "U.S. healthcare makes you bankrupt" is similar to the claim that assisted dying in Canada/Europe is a scheme to buck healthcare costs. Both are mostly hyperbolic.

[LC]

Outdated info but this is what 4 minutes of google searching produced:

 

The article by Himmelstein et al¹ in this issue of the The American Journal of Medicine documents that health care expenses were the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States in 2007, accounting for 62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in 1981.²

Most bankruptcies occurred in middle-class citizens with health insurance, further evidence that our current health care system, based on for-profit, employment-based health insurance, is not working. Millions of Americans have limited access to health care because they cannot afford health insurance. Millions of others, such as those who have to file for bankruptcy because of health care costs, have inadequate health insurance. It is estimated that 1 in 5 Americans goes without health insurance or has inadequate health insurance.³

[TwoCitiesCapital]

1 hour ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

$7K on medical expenses over 14 years ($500/year) is a travesty? How much did you spend on owning a car? How much did you spend on plumbers and vacations over this time ?

 

Your expenses relative to U.S. GDP per capita of $80k/year are not abhorrent, certainly not going to drive you into bankruptcy...

 

 

The travesty is the $9k/yr in insurance it costs to cover the sub-$7k over 14 years. 

 

I don't have many medical expenses because I'm healthy with no allergies/pre-existing conditions and have largely been able to avoid doctors visits. Somehow it still costs $9k/yr for me to have the privilege of fronting the first $7k of any of my own expenses. 

 

My first girlfriend was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 20. That would've bankrupted her. 

 

My second girlfriend had tree nut allergies. Despite mentioning these allergens at food places, you still often get cross contamination from less-than-attentive staff. She went to the hospital twice in the 4 years we dated to prevent her airways from closing. A few thousands dollars a piece per visit. Maybe wouldn't have bankrupted her, but would've left her hard up and behind on credit card/rent/car payments had she not been living with me and me covering her expenses. 

 

Why are you pretending this is something it isn't? 

Edited 18 hours ago by TwoCitiesCapital

[james22]

Over-consumption makes households financially over-stretched and more susceptible to adverse events.

 

https://archive.ph/wip/wufO3

 

Did medical bills single-handedly account for more bankruptcies than anything else? No. 

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2017-01-17/the-myth-of-the-medical-bankruptcy

[Dalal.Holdings]

26 minutes ago, LC said:

Outdated info but this is what 4 minutes of google searching produced:

 

The article by Himmelstein et al¹ in this issue of the The American Journal of Medicine documents that health care expenses were the most common cause of bankruptcy in the United States in 2007, accounting for 62% of US bankruptcies compared with 8% in 1981.²

Most bankruptcies occurred in middle-class citizens with health insurance, further evidence that our current health care system, based on for-profit, employment-based health insurance, is not working. Millions of Americans have limited access to health care because they cannot afford health insurance. Millions of others, such as those who have to file for bankruptcy because of health care costs, have inadequate health insurance. It is estimated that 1 in 5 Americans goes without health insurance or has inadequate health insurance.³

 

2007: before the ACA, hence irrelevant.

 

8 minutes ago, TwoCitiesCapital said:

 

The travesty is the $9k/yr in insurance it costs to cover the sub-$7k over 14 years. 

 

I don't have many medical expenses because I'm healthy with no allergies/pre-existing conditions and have largely been able to avoid doctors visits. Somehow it still costs $9k/yr for me to have the privilege of fronting the first $7k of any of my own expenses. 

 

My first girlfriend was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 20. That would've bankrupted her. 

 

My second girlfriend had tree nut allergies. Despite mentioning these allergens at food places, you still often get cross contamination from less-than-attentive staff. She went to the hospital twice in the 4 years we dated to prevent her airways from closing. A few thousands dollars a piece per visit. Maybe wouldn't have bankrupted her, but would've left her hard up and behind on credit card/rent/car payments had she not been living with me and me covering her expenses. 

 

Why are you pretending this is something it isn't? 

 

$9k/yr is 11.3% of U.S. GDP per capita of 80,000 per year. Your healthcare cost is actually lower than the average American (at ~18% of GDP). Yours is equivalent as % of GDP as what people in the EU pay for healthcare:

 

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?locations=EU

 

So that doesn't seem like much of a travesty.

 

It's no secret that the U.S. share of healthcare costs to GDP is higher though at ~18% of GDP and people have a lot of reasons to complain about it. However, the meme that U.S. healthcare regularly makes people bankrupt is hyperbolic and often very emotionally driven.

[Dinar]

13 minutes ago, TwoCitiesCapital said:

 

The travesty is the $9k/yr in insurance it costs to cover the sub-$7k over 14 years. 

 

I don't have many medical expenses because I'm healthy with no allergies/pre-existing conditions and have largely been able to avoid doctors visits. Somehow it still costs $9k/yr for me to have the privilege of fronting the first $7k of any of my own expenses. 

 

My first girlfriend was diagnosed with leukemia at the age of 20. That would've bankrupted her. 

 

My second girlfriend had tree nut allergies. Despite mentioning these allergens at food places, you still often get cross contamination from less-than-attentive staff. She went to the hospital twice in the 4 years we dated to prevent her airways from closing. A few thousands dollars a piece per visit. Maybe wouldn't have bankrupted her, but would've left her hard up and behind on credit card/rent/car payments had she not been living with me and me covering her expenses. 

 

Why are you pretending this is something it isn't? 

Did she carry Benadryl and Epipen?  By the way, Epipen is a travesty.  Four fold increase in price in five years.  

[james22]

TALKING to Europeans (particularly non-Brits) about things like health care and welfare programmes is a treat. Most of the Europeans I meet seem to believe that huge numbers of Americans get no health care at all, while the rich few wallow in luxury.

 

In fact, the biggest problems uninsured Americans face are not doctors refusing to treat them, but the fact that they use the incredibly inconvenient emergency room for most of their care, and that a really bad illness could force them into bankruptcy. (Some also believe that it reduces quality of care for chronic illnesses like diabetes, but this is much less clear).

 

Not admirable, by any means, but a far cry from the tortured visions of poor Americans dying at the hospital’s door, their pleas for care unheeded.

 

Americans on the other hand, the overwhelming majority of whom are insured, seem to believe that millions of Europeans die each year from lack of treatment.

 

The reality is much less grim; a fair number of Europeans go without hip replacements and other quality of life treatments, and some do die on waiting lists, but many of those people would have died anyway, because they have nasty diseases with life expectancies measured in months.

 

America caters, expensively, to their desire to live a few extra weeks or months; Europe does not.

 

http://www.economist.com/debate/freeexchange/2007/01/crosscountry_perceptions.cfm

[Dalal.Holdings]

This was a killer speech (begins around 9 min mark with English translation):

 

 

While I might not agree with everything he says, I agree with his overall thesis and the World Economic Forum has been part of the problem for a long time.

 

[brobro777]

Boy you guys on this website sure seem to be really serious about things 

 

One thing I can say is Europe probably doesn't have this kinda stuff happen:

https://nypost.com/2019/11/12/homeless-man-hurls-bucket-of-diarrhea-at-woman-near-hollywood-walk-of-fame/

[TwoCitiesCapital]

43 minutes ago, Dinar said:

Did she carry Benadryl and Epipen?  By the way, Epipen is a travesty.  Four fold increase in price in five years.  

 

Yes. But you still have go the hospital when you take an EpiPen. You don't just go about  life as normal. And they still give you hospital grade epinephrine when you get there. And then you get to replace the pen. 

 

 

[TwoCitiesCapital]

53 minutes ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

2007: before the ACA, hence irrelevant.

 

 

$9k/yr is 11.3% of U.S. GDP per capita of 80,000 per year. Your healthcare cost is actually lower than the average American (at ~18% of GDP). Yours is equivalent as % of GDP as what people in the EU pay for healthcare:

 

https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/SH.XPD.CHEX.GD.ZS?locations=EU

 

So that doesn't seem like much of a travesty.

 

It's no secret that the U.S. share of healthcare costs to GDP is higher though at ~18% of GDP and people have a lot of reasons to complain about it. However, the meme that U.S. healthcare regularly makes people bankrupt is hyperbolic and often very emotionally driven.

 

1) per capital GDP is NOT the calculation to use, but rather median household income, (or an adjusted median income figure to account for employer's share) because we know a disproportionate amount of GDP is skewed to the top 1% while health expenses are not. 

 

2) I would HOPE I'm below average in cost. I'm below average in age, above average in health, AND insuring a significantly larger portion of my own cost-risk myself with the $7k deductible . Those should all meaningfully reduce my cost-share. The fact that it's still at 11% of your bogus $80k figure is the travesty (and a significantly higher % of median income). What other service are you happy to pay $10k a year when you don't use it and have to front another $7k when you DO want to use it? Oh, and we punish you for it if you don't buy it? 

 

 

 

Edited 17 hours ago by TwoCitiesCapital

[LC]

1 hour ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

2007: before the ACA, hence irrelevant.

 

 

Do your own research and prove me wrong. Assuming you won't, allow me to draw the logical conclusions for you:

 

So based on your dismissive comment, post-ACA, medical debt is no longer a leading cause of bankruptcy.

 

Therefore the ACA reduced total bankruptcies caused by medical debt, from 62% to some  much lower amount. 

 

The ACA, being a European/socialist inspired piece of regulation, has therefore saved hundreds of thousands of people each year from bankruptcy. 

 

I look forward to seeing your posts on how European regulations save millions from bankruptcy due to medical debt.

Edited 16 hours ago by LC

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, brobro777 said:

Boy you guys on this website sure seem to be really serious about things 

 

One thing I can say is Europe probably doesn't have this kinda stuff happen:

https://nypost.com/2019/11/12/homeless-man-hurls-bucket-of-diarrhea-at-woman-near-hollywood-walk-of-fame/

 

You forgot - California is like a 3rd world country.

[Dalal.Holdings]

37 minutes ago, TwoCitiesCapital said:

 

1) per capital GDP is NOT the calculation to use, but rather median household income, (or an adjusted median income figure to account for employer's share) because we know a disproportionate amount of GDP is skewed to the top 1% while health expenses are not. 

 

2) I would HOPE I'm below average in cost. I'm below average in age, above average in health, AND insuring a significantly larger portion of my own cost-risk myself with the $7k deductible . Those should all meaningfully reduce my cost-share. The fact that it's still at 11% of your bogus $80k figure is the travesty (and a significantly higher % of median income). What other service are you happy to pay $10k a year when you don't use it and have to front another $7k when you DO want to use it? Oh, and we punish you for it if you don't buy it? 

 

 

 

 

As I said:

 

"It's no secret that the U.S. share of healthcare costs to GDP is higher though at ~18% of GDP and people have a lot of reasons to complain about it. However, the meme that U.S. healthcare regularly makes people bankrupt is hyperbolic and often very emotionally driven."

 

"What other service are you happy to pay $10k a year when you don't use it"

 

Yeah that's how insurance works man. 

 

"Oh, and we punish you for it if you don't buy it? "

 

Yep Car insurance works the same.

 

Edited 16 hours ago by Dalal.Holdings

[Dalal.Holdings]

32 minutes ago, LC said:

 

 

I look forward to seeing your posts on how European regulations save millions from bankruptcy due to medical debt.

 

Thanks for the laugh. Yes we have the ACA and it works to prevent bankruptcies because people who were healthy and uninsured are now forced to own insurance in the event something catastrophic occurs and they have coverage. It's a good thing and the way insurance works. Obviously the U.S. has longstanding issues with healthcare costs, but those are not nearly as debilitating as the forces that hamper EU's growth and potential today.

 

My commentary about the EU has been pretty clear. If Europeans can't even accept that they have a problem, there is no hope to fixing it. And if this continues over prolonged period of time, even those nice benefits that Europeans have will start being eroded...

[LC]

I figured you would get at least a chuckle out of it

 

Quote

 

Obviously the U.S. has longstanding issues with healthcare costs, but those are not nearly as debilitating as the forces that hamper EU's growth and potential today.

 

 

 

I mean, that's a matter of debate. And different people value different things. 

I think there are issues on both sides - neither is perfect. 

 

What I think we can both agree on is that nobody can say that they didn't get what they asked for. 

 

If people in the US complain about homelessness etc. - well why did you vote for Trump? 

If people in the EU complain they can't build individual wealth - well why are you voting for semi-socialists? 

Edited 16 hours ago by LC

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

This was a killer speech (begins around 9 min mark with English translation):

 

 

While I might not agree with everything he says, I agree with his overall thesis and the World Economic Forum has been part of the problem for a long time.

 

 

Wow, that was an amazing speech.

 

One thing is for sure - he leaves Davos with few friends.

[TwoCitiesCapital]

2 hours ago, Dalal.Holdings said:

 

As I said:

 

"It's no secret that the U.S. share of healthcare costs to GDP is higher though at ~18% of GDP and people have a lot of reasons to complain about it. However, the meme that U.S. healthcare regularly makes people bankrupt is hyperbolic and often very emotionally driven."

 

 

"What other service are you happy to pay $10k a year when you don't use it"

 

Yeah that's how insurance works man. 

 

"Oh, and we punish you for it if you don't buy it? "

 

Yep Car insurance works the same.

 

 

My car insurance doesn't cost $10k/yr, nor does it have a $7k deductible, and I've spent way more than $7k on maintenance/expenses/repairs over the last 14 years despite only owning a car for 1/2 of them. While the insurance doesn't pay for the maintenance and no-accident related repairs, the costs of such would be substantial in the event of an accident. 

 

My home insurance for a $500k condo doesn't cost $7k/yr, doesn't have a $7k deductible, and I just made a $12k claim last year (my only claim so far).

 

Health insurance is an entirely other realm of how little you get for how much it costs and how infrequently it gets used. 

 

There's 1000 things wrong with the system, it's not just the insurance companies at fault, but to pretend this isn't an issue and is 'affordable' and doesn't put those in less than pristine health and finances under pressure is insane. 

Edited 14 hours ago by TwoCitiesCapital

[Dalal.Holdings]

45 minutes ago, TwoCitiesCapital said:

 

My car insurance doesn't cost $10k/yr, nor does it have a $7k deductible, and I've spent way more than $7k on maintenance/expenses/repairs over the last 14 years despite only owning a car for 1/2 of them. While the insurance doesn't pay for the maintenance and no-accident related repairs, the costs of such would be substantial in the event of an accident. 

 

My home insurance for a $500k condo doesn't cost $7k/yr, doesn't have a $7k deductible, and I just made a $12k claim last year (my only claim so far).

 

Health insurance is an entirely other realm of how little you get for how much it costs and how infrequently it gets used. 

 

There's 1000 things wrong with the system, it's not just the insurance companies at fault, but to pretend this isn't an issue and is 'affordable' and doesn't put those in less than pristine health and finances under pressure is insane. 

 

Bro, your life and health is worth far more than your car or your condo.

 

Like I said, I agree that costs in the U.S. are too high, however the notion that people are being bankrupted left and right by healthcare costs in the U.S. is untrue. That is all.

[Spekulatius]

I know quite a few people who have had financial issues due to health insurance. My wife was one of them before/ when I met her.  I think with divorce, it is probably cause of financial ruin.

You will not go broke on medical expenses in Europe, or at least not Germany, that’s for sure. Medical care is also way cheaper and while care in the US is better if you have good insurance or a lot of money, it probably is better in Europe for the average Joe.

I say that as someone who has lived in both systems