Russia-Ukrainian War

[Parsad]

24 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

Yeah, I totally disagree.

 

War is war. It is not a “test” or limited to proportionality. War is a last final step when diplomacy fails. War is a test of who is the strongest. We all know it’s Israel- even the Palestinians know it. That makes them fools for testing the resolve of Israel. It’s like the bully that bothers you countless times in school , until you decide to flatten him for good.

 

The bully had it coming, and was a fool for testing you, not understanding that you would be capable of an act of violence to set you straight.

 

”Proportionally” is an idiotic concept in war - because war settles the issue of who is strongest once and for all. The determination to use that strength was SERIOUSLY misjudged by the fools in Hamas - and unfortunately their people are paying the price.

 

Now it will be the decision of the Palestinian people as to whether they allow Hamas to run their affairs after it’s over.  If they do - they are indeed fools.

 

Proportionality has no place in this discussion of the final option of war.

 

Its now a simple decision: give up hostages, give up Hamas - and you will get peace.

 

Your choice: unconditional surrender.

 

Actually I disagree with you on this...it isn't war.  It was a terrorist attack on civilian women and children.  

 

Ukraine and Russia is a war, provoked by Russia.  This is not a war and I'm not sure why the pro-Palestinian protestors don't get that!  

 

If this happened in Canada, I would want the heads of Hamas leaders trotted down in front of Parliament!  Just like 9/11...Bin Laden and Al Qaida had to be wiped out!

 

Hamas aren't revolutionary rebels defending their land like the colonies did against the British.  They went onto sovereign soil, killed women and children, kidnapped so many others, and then hid behind their own citizens using them as human shields.  These guys are pieces of shit!  Cheers!

[Ulti]

4 minutes ago, Parsad said:

I agree that there is no simple solution.  But believe it or not, I'm not of two views on this!  Israel has a right to defend itself and rid the world of Hamas. 

Totally agree... Just to add ( and wish for) get rid of Bibi and Abbas. And bring back Fayyad and a centrist Israeli government.

[Parsad]

3 minutes ago, Ulti said:

Totally agree... Just to add ( and wish for) get rid of Bibi and Abbas. And bring back Fayyad and a centrist Israeli government.

 

Heck, a centrist government would be great everywhere, including Canada and the United States!  We're at two extremes at the moment...time for politicians to come down the middle.  Cheers!

[changegonnacome]

29 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

22 minutes ago, Parsad said:

Are there really two views on this?

The view I’m espousing is one of proportionality…don’t confuse my point with any support of Hamas or lack of support for Israel…...what I’m also pointing out is that raising the question of what makes Israel less safe or move safe over time…..rallying the Arab world around the plight justified or not of Palenstian’s is somewhat playing into the hands of Hamas….the attacks of Oct 7th were designed to bring Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran & Russia into the theatre of the Palenstian & Israel conflict…if one were designing a response that might bring about that result what is occurring in Gaza right now is it.

 

Optimizing the long term survival of Israel is what I’m concerned about….they live in a very nasty neighborhood…..squashing a wasp (Palenstein) in front of tiger (Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan etc etc) may not be that clever. What I guess I’m advocating for is a slower approach to eradicating Hamas…..but let me be clear Israel should destroy every one of those scumbags…..doing so more slowly and surgically over years would be my approach….this shock and awe….risks what I just described.

 

This topic seems to have little nuance…..I’ve never questioned Israel‘a right to defend itself….only that defending itself in the short run and long run would IMO be better served by a different approach. That’s it. That’s all I’ve said.

 

My point is one of what strategy….not of what direction that strategy takes…in that I’m in crushing agreement. Destroy Hamas.

Edited November 21, 2023 by changegonnacome

[ValueArb]

1 hour ago, changegonnacome said:

 

Proportionality is a well accepted principle in matters of self-defense…it’s why it’s not acceptable to kill a man for bumping into you on the street even when he meant to do it….on this idea I can assure you we are on firm footing.

 

How proportional/acceptable were nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the even higher casualty Tokyo fire raids, and the firebombing of Dresden, etc?

 

How are they different than Israel surgically attacking armed Hamas in Gaza? Note that reporters have confirmed that Israel regularly calls Palestinian civilians to warn them to clear buildings before strikes, even at the cost of allowing some Hamas to slip away. 

 

Quote

Hamas in Gaza poses in the short term now almost zero threat to Israeli lives & sovereignty now that Israel’s vast military & intelligence apparatus is focused on the threat. Let’s be clear here….toe to toe….Hamas poses limited threat to the survival of Israel….in fact continue on with this level of proportionality and you risk pulling in unseemly neighbors to the fight such that the question of Israel’s survival as state re-appears when truly resourced state level actors step into the fray. 
 

 

Hamas is still firing rockets into Israeli territory (and Gaza hospitals;)

[ValueArb]

2 hours ago, changegonnacome said:

It should also be noted that for all the Putin war criminal & genocidal maniac talk (which is true)…..Israel in a few short weeks has killed more civilians in Gaza than Putin has in Ukraine in a year and half of war.

 

BTW, you should ask yourself how you think you know this. All of the Palestinian casualty figures have come from Hamas, and it's been consistently caught lying. The last time Israel intervened in Gaza (2008 IIRC) independent analysts looked at the "civilian" casualty records Hamas supplied to support their claim of thousands of civilian casualties, and they found that the number of military aged males in the "civilian" casualty list was a far higher proportion than in the Palestinian population. Pretty clearly Hamas counts every fighter killed as a "civilian" to try to make it look like Israel is being indiscriminate, when all evidence is to the contrary.

[cubsfan]

5 minutes ago, changegonnacome said:

 

The view I’m espousing is one of proportionality…don’t confuse my point with any support of Hamas or lack of support for Israel…...what I’m also pointing out is that raising the question of what makes Israel less safe or move safe over time…..rallying the Arab world around the plight justified or not of Palenstian’s is somewhat playing into the hands of Hamas….the attacks of Oct 7th were designed to bring Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran & Russia into the theatre of the Palenstian & Israel conflict…if one were designing a response that might bring about that result what is occurring in Gaza right now is it.

 

Optimizing the long term survival of Israel is what I’m concerned about….they live in a very nasty neighborhood…..squashing a wasp (Palenstein) in front of tiger (Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan etc etc) may not be that clever. What I guess I’m advocating for is a slower approach to eradicating Hamas…..but let me be clear Israel should destroy every one of those scumbags…..doing so more slowly and surgically over years would be my approach….this shock and awe….risks what I just described.

 

This topic seems to have little nuance…..I’ve never questioned Israel‘a right to defend itself….only that defending itself in the short run and long run would IMO be better served by a different approach. That’s it. That’s all I’ve said.

 

My point is one of what strategy….not of what direction that strategy takes…in that I’m in crushing agreement. Destroy Hamas.

Maybe I read your original post incorrectly: I assume you said the Israel is committing war crimes. Perhaps I’m wrong. 
 

Regardless - Israel is in the fight of their lives. Egypt, Jordan and the Saudis want no part of this.(nor do they want Palestinians)

 

In the fight for your life, proportionally has no place. Israel MUST win and they will.

The Palestinians can EASILY end this. Simple: release hostages, dump Hamas.

 

War is over. If not - Israel will do it for them.

 

It makes ZERO sense to hold back any pressure. ZERO. Your enemy is cooked.

Only an idiot would stop now.

 

Hamas is not capable of defeating Israel. The sooner the better, because Israel will need to turn its attention to Hezbollah very quickly.

[Parsad]

22 minutes ago, changegonnacome said:

 

The view I’m espousing is one of proportionality…don’t confuse my point with any support of Hamas or lack of support for Israel…...what I’m also pointing out is that raising the question of what makes Israel less safe or move safe over time…..rallying the Arab world around the plight justified or not of Palenstian’s is somewhat playing into the hands of Hamas….the attacks of Oct 7th were designed to bring Egypt, Jordan, Iraq, Iran & Russia into the theatre of the Palenstian & Israel conflict…if one were designing a response that might bring about that result what is occurring in Gaza right now is it.

 

Optimizing the long term survival of Israel is what I’m concerned about….they live in a very nasty neighborhood…..squashing a wasp (Palenstein) in front of tiger (Iran, Iraq, Egypt, Jordan etc etc) may not be that clever. What I guess I’m advocating for is a slower approach to eradicating Hamas…..but let me be clear Israel should destroy every one of those scumbags…..doing so more slowly and surgically over years would be my approach….this shock and awe….risks what I just described.

 

This topic seems to have little nuance…..I’ve never questioned Israel‘a right to defend itself….only that defending itself in the short run and long run would IMO be better served by a different approach. That’s it. That’s all I’ve said.

 

My point is one of what strategy….not of what direction that strategy takes…in that I’m in crushing agreement. Destroy Hamas.

 

Yup, I agree with you on all of this.  But the Arab states are going to be against Israel no matter what...unless they are sanctioned and pushed by the West and the rest of the world.  And those Arab states not siding with Hamas are playing the Swiss card (neutral).  Cheers!

[Xerxes]

14 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

One was an unprovoked attack on civilian women and children by a terrorist organization...the other is an attempt to root out that terrorist organization so it can't do it again.  Are there really two views on this?

 

Israel should arm Palestinians who want Hamas out...train them and fight.  That is the only way to end this thing once and for all.  The other is to acknowledge Hamas as a non-terrorist organization and use diplomacy...do we really want to do that?  Turn them into another Sinn Fein?  Yes, you have peace but legitimize terrorists! 

 

I agree that there is no simple solution.  But believe it or not, I'm not of two views on this!  Israel has a right to defend itself and rid the world of Hamas.  Cheers!  

Israel should do what it need to do with Hamas or any other national security threats. State or non-state. I don’t think that is in dispute. It is called national security. Why is everyone bringing this up to make a point ?

 

Iran dealt the same way with ISIS in Iraq. A fact not understood or covered by Western brainwashing media. And Iran deals the same way with its perceived state-level adversaries and enemies, outside its border. If Iran, the anti-Western, does it, surely Israel can do so as well. And has been doing as well. 
 

Going back to Israel, the more recent Israeli government was more interested in pushing its settlement into the West Bank to fulfill its messianic dreams and needed to keep Hamas on its best behaviour. They even allowed Qatar transfer fund to Hamas. Fracturing the Palestinian position, pushing settlers and undermining whatever remains of its leadership and driving a wedge was more important to the current Israeli government than economic development and creating incentives. 
 

Unfortunately, Bibi was out-snaked by the Hamas snake (snake bigger than him). He got played. Hamas was not going to left hanging with the Israeli-Saudi rapprochement and had to play its hand, now or never. Therefore Bibi bears responsibility as well through sheer incompetence. Understand that just because a politician wears a tie and is able to climb to power through democratic means, it doesn’t mean he cannot be a psychopath or sociopath or a bloodthirsty man, or all at the sametime. 
 

Just as one can give credit to previous Israeli governments to try to mend and make peace with a stubborn Palestinian leadership one needs to acknowledge the current government mishaps. However few pro-Israeli posters can. They are polarized. 
 

As far as the 10K death, Israeli are just accelerating what they already been doing for decades. So nothing new there. Just as nothing new with Hamas, going after people who have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. There is just more spotlight than before. State-terrorism does exist as much as non-state terrorism. Strangling an entire population through cool gadgets over decades doesn’t make it more noble than bombing civilians via F-16 and that doesn’t make it more noble than Hamas tactics. How many posters can acknowledge that ?  
 

Two things can be truth at the same time. One should be able to comment/acknowledge that the Israeli are pursuing state-terrorism but one can also comment that they are at war. A war that was brought to them. At least in this current 2023 flare up context. Forgetting for a moment the long boring history behind it, that I cannot be bothered with.  

 

How many who have commented on this thread are able to raise their hand and acknowledge the comment above, while maintaining at the same time that it needs to be done. That is what war exists after all. Hence my comment on polarizing. Folks are hell bent to want to be right. It is their TRUTH. 
 

On the oversized attention that thing gets, I find it troubling (poor Zelenskyy) All I know is that in 2018 they’re throwing live babies into bonfires in Burma, and the media and the Western Instagram influencers could not be bothered with, because the victims were neither Jewish nor Palestinian. 
 

where the f&$k is Burma anyways 

 

Lastly both Palestinian and Israeli play the “media” victim card outside the war zone. Note how much insult the Israeli hurl toward the UN chief, for saying the right thing. The UN chief is not even able to make a comment without being branded as antisemite. And on the Palestinian side, for throwing in historical justification of 10/07 atrocities, because of this that and the other thing. Bullshit is everywhere. And probably some in my post as well. How many posters here can smell both sides and not just the side that is inconsistent to their polarized view. 
 

 

because of the polarized nature of the conflict it is a conversation not worth having.
 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Xerxes
Spell

[Parsad]

59 minutes ago, ValueArb said:

 

How proportional/acceptable were nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the even higher casualty Tokyo fire raids, and the firebombing of Dresden, etc?

 

How are they different than Israel surgically attacking armed Hamas in Gaza? Note that reporters have confirmed that Israel regularly calls Palestinian civilians to warn them to clear buildings before strikes, even at the cost of allowing some Hamas to slip away. 

 

 

Hamas is still firing rockets into Israeli territory (and Gaza hospitals;)

 

Yeah, Hamas fires rockets into Israel like a kid playing with fireworks...gleefully, relentlessly until the money is spent. 

 

Constant barrages, drone attacks, always looking for a weak spot to maim and kill Israelis.  That's what they did this time with the paragliders.

 

Can you imagine living with that in Canada or the United States?  The U.S. is exhausted of peaceful, illegal immigrants...what would happen if there were barrages of rockets every month fired on different parts of the U.S.?  Canadians have never experienced such a thing since the FLQ in the 70's and that was like a mini, unorganized IRA.  Nothing like what Israel goes through daily!  

 

Cheers!  

[Gamecock-YT]

replace Russia and Ukraine with Israel and Hamas and I don't think people would be ok with bombing refugee camps (multiple times!) and The Hague would be busy writing up war crime charges on the heads of the Russian military.....but when Israel does it, "it's just them defending themselves...."

Edited November 22, 2023 by Gamecock-YT

[cubsfan]

24 minutes ago, Gamecock-YT said:

replace Russia and Ukraine with Israel and Hamas and I don't think people would be ok with bombing refugee camps (multiple times!) and The Hague would be busy writing up war crime charges on the heads of the Russian military.....but when Israel does it, "it's just them defending themselves...."

I’m sure The Hague is all in favor of harboring terrorists and storing/firing missiles from those refugee camps.

 

Sure they are.

[Dinar]

1 hour ago, Gamecock-YT said:

replace Russia and Ukraine with Israel and Hamas and I don't think people would be ok with bombing refugee camps (multiple times!) and The Hague would be busy writing up war crime charges on the heads of the Russian military.....but when Israel does it, "it's just them defending themselves...."

A million Jews were kicked out of places were they lived sometimes for 2,500 years (Iraq) in 1948.   Where are the Jewish refugee camps?  Oh, wait, they rebuilt their lives.  700K Arabs that lived in the Holy Land in 1948 and their descendants are still unable to do so for some reason...  If Arabs are allowed to kick out Jews from places that Jews lived in for 2,500 years, then why can't Jews kick out Arabs from places Arabs invaded 1400 years ago?  

 

As for bombing refugee camps, don't fire rockets from a place that you do not want to get bombed.  Would you allow me to shoot at you and your family from a hospital, and if so, will you just stand idly by? 

 

[Parsad]

5 hours ago, Gamecock-YT said:

replace Russia and Ukraine with Israel and Hamas and I don't think people would be ok with bombing refugee camps (multiple times!) and The Hague would be busy writing up war crime charges on the heads of the Russian military.....but when Israel does it, "it's just them defending themselves...."

 

Again, I don't see the logic here.  How can you replace Russia with Israel?  Israel is Ukraine if anything in this!

 

A more apt comparison would be that Israel is the United States.  Hamas is Al Qaida.  Palestine is Afghanistan and Iraq.

 

Cheers!

[Ulti]

9 hours ago, Xerxes said:

acknowledge the current government mishaps. However few pro-Israeli posters can. They are polarized. 

From my conversations to folks n Israel and a variety of news sources….Vast majority of Israelis hate Bibi his government and want him gone

[Xerxes]

3 hours ago, Ulti said:

From my conversations to folks n Israel and a variety of news sources….Vast majority of Israelis hate Bibi his government and want him gone

Right. But that is the locals. 

My comments is about commentators in the West. 

[Xerxes]

12 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

Yup, I agree with you on all of this.  But the Arab states are going to be against Israel no matter what...unless they are sanctioned and pushed by the West and the rest of the world.  And those Arab states not siding with Hamas are playing the Swiss card (neutral).  Cheers!

 

Your statement is wrong. And too simplified. 
 

Two Arab states have a peace treaty with Israel now more than several decades. And four more joined in thanks to the Abraham Accord. And the Kingdom has the de facto close relationship with Israel. That is pretty much covered the majority of significant Arab states. And lastly Oman is the Switzerland of the Middle East, where different political factions can meet informally.
 

So your statement is incorrect. 
 

Now the Arab governments have to balance their foreign policy with domestic points of views. Otherwise, they are out of job. That is a balancing act. No different than US president and Western politicians spewing out mumbo jumbo for a domestic audience and secure votes. 
 

Specifically on the different factions within the Sunni world, there are two key blocks + one key Shia block. 
 

(1) One is what I call is the “statues quo” faction made of Saudi, UAE, Egypt and Bahrain. These are the powers predominantly monarchies (except for Egypt) where their power rests on the maintaining the statue quo. They have been largely getting close to Israel. But the Garza War has been making it more and more difficult for the Kingdom to get back in. I don’t think it is dead, but definitely pushed back by a few years. 

 

(2) the other power is the “political islam” power block. Predominantly, Qatar and Turkey. The two champions of Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas has spawned. Qatar and Turkey had been the fuelling the Arab spring via Al-Jazeera that was toppling the “old order” in 2010s. Egypt for a short while became part of this group when Mohammed Morsi was in power, but now it is firmly back in camp (1). My view is that this power block exists because of Turkey wanting to reassert its leadership of the Sunni world and because Qatar (Al-Thani) wants to keep its sovereignty from Saudi Arabia. Therefore these two desires come into conflict with the “statues quo” camp. 
 

(3) And lastly of course there is Iran, which is neither of these two camps. And in fact is a Shia dominated country. They are revisionist power that will keep maintaining  soft and hard power through Mesopotamia and Levant, as they have done in the days when Caesars ruled Constantinople, when Caliphs ruled Baghdad, and when Sultans held power in Istanbul, over a span more than a millennium. That insecurity for national security will always be there. 

 

[Parsad]

13 hours ago, Ulti said:

From my conversations to folks n Israel and a variety of news sources….Vast majority of Israelis hate Bibi his government and want him gone

 

No doubt.  But they want Hamas gone too, and I don't think the majority are against Bibi on this issue.

 

Cheers!

[Parsad]

9 hours ago, Xerxes said:

 

Your statement is wrong. And too simplified. 
 

Two Arab states have a peace treaty with Israel now more than several decades. And four more joined in thanks to the Abraham Accord. And the Kingdom has the de facto close relationship with Israel. That is pretty much covered the majority of significant Arab states. And lastly Oman is the Switzerland of the Middle East, where different political factions can meet informally.
 

So your statement is incorrect. 
 

Now the Arab governments have to balance their foreign policy with domestic points of views. Otherwise, they are out of job. That is a balancing act. No different than US president and Western politicians spewing out mumbo jumbo for a domestic audience and secure votes. 
 

Specifically on the different factions within the Sunni world, there are two key blocks + one key Shia block. 
 

(1) One is what I call is the “statues quo” faction made of Saudi, UAE, Egypt and Bahrain. These are the powers predominantly monarchies (except for Egypt) where their power rests on the maintaining the statue quo. They have been largely getting close to Israel. But the Garza War has been making it more and more difficult for the Kingdom to get back in. I don’t think it is dead, but definitely pushed back by a few years. 

 

(2) the other power is the “political islam” power block. Predominantly, Qatar and Turkey. The two champions of Muslim Brotherhood, from which Hamas has spawned. Qatar and Turkey had been the fuelling the Arab spring via Al-Jazeera that was toppling the “old order” in 2010s. Egypt for a short while became part of this group when Mohammed Morsi was in power, but now it is firmly back in camp (1). My view is that this power block exists because of Turkey wanting to reassert its leadership of the Sunni world and because Qatar (Al-Thani) wants to keep its sovereignty from Saudi Arabia. Therefore these two desires come into conflict with the “statues quo” camp. 
 

(3) And lastly of course there is Iran, which is neither of these two camps. And in fact is a Shia dominated country. They are revisionist power that will keep maintaining  soft and hard power through Mesopotamia and Levant, as they have done in the days when Caesars ruled Constantinople, when Caliphs ruled Baghdad, and when Sultans held power in Istanbul, over a span more than a millennium. That insecurity for national security will always be there. 

 

 

Actually my statement was correct...those peace treaties and the Abraham Accords were pushed by the U.S.  On paper they have peace...but if push comes to shove, they will not support Israel unless there are repercussions from the West.  Cheers!

[cubsfan]

13 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Actually my statement was correct...those peace treaties and the Abraham Accords were pushed by the U.S.  On paper they have peace...but if push comes to shove, they will not support Israel unless there are repercussions from the West.  Cheers!

Exactly - the semi-neutral Muslims are going to side with the strongest(winner). The reason they’ve lost confidence in the West, is they think we will cut & run - so you certainly can’t blame them.

 

It’s up to Israel now.

[John Hjorth]

How things work in Russia. [ To me, it's actually a bit entertaining! , and then again also very, very saddening ...]

 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by John Hjorth

[John Hjorth]

Reuters [November 22^nd 2023] : Putin says we must think how to stop 'the tragedy' of war in Ukraine [from G20 Virtual Summit].

[UK]

 

[John Hjorth]

Thank you for sharing, @UK,

 

The statement by John Mearsheimer at around the 4:30 mark in the video about avoiding this war in the first first place, what is the basis for that particular statement from him? What is Mr. Mearsheimer referring to here? To me, it's not specific, as I experience and perceive the statement.

Edited November 23, 2023 by John Hjorth

[UK]

48 minutes ago, John Hjorth said:

Thank you for sharing, @UK,

 

The statement by John Mearsheimer at around the 4:30 mark in the video about avoiding this war in the first first place, what is the basis for that particular statement from him? What is Mr. Mearsheimer referring to here? To me, it's not specific, as I experience and perceive the statement.

 

As I understand he thinks that negotiations between Russia an Ukraine at that initial stage of the conflict could have been successful and they were close to some workable agreement, but Ukraine was encouraged to walk away from it. And today chances of something similar is very low. No trust etc. Not that there is something very new in what he said and I did not listened to the whole interview yet, but find his philosophy (offensive realism?) and worldview quite interesting. Not that I agree with him on everything:), but I think he says a lot of things that makes sense, kind of how everything works etc. Also on US vs China and other issues.  

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by UK