Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[james22]

5 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Regarding ‘good’ - you think Ukraine, its aspirations, values and its leaders aren’t any better than Russia / Putin?

 

Not much (corrupt AF), but given finite resources, it doesn't matter - I believe the American people are more deserving of American resources than Ukrainians.

[Sweet]

4 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

America has learned an extremely painful lesson the last few decades: We can't change the world.

 

Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, now this.  Trying to instill democracy in certain countries is just doomed.

Afghanistan deserved to have the Taliban & Al Qaeda crushed. But we (America) fails in thinking their job is nation building. Completely failed. My thinking of course has changed from what I/we can actually accomplish.

 

As a country, the US needs to stick with it's strategic interests, but more important FIX our own country. We have a multitude of problems. As an example, we're likely to unleash huge resources on Mexico, as they are a narco-state that has done great damage to the USA. 

Yeh, Afghanistan and democracy was a road to a hiding.  That was dumb.

 

Ukraine is an imperfect democracy but its people are largely agree that’s what they want.

 

One last point on Afghanistan.  Lots of talk about NATO recently and how useless it has been recently.  Article 5 was only invoked once, by the US after 9/11.  It was NATO that invaded Afghanistan, not just the US.  About 30% of combined forces were non US.  Over 500 British died, 2,500 seriously injured, because America asked for help and got it.  I think it’s a mistake to throw that away.

[james22]

7 hours ago, Sweet said:

Where I have a slight disagreement with you is that you don’t seem to believe Western values are worth promoting or defending.

 

 

[Sweet]

4 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

Not much (corrupt AF), but given finite resources, it doesn't matter - I believe the American people are more deserving of American resources than Ukrainians.

That’s an answer to a different question.

 

I’m not talking about Ukrainians vs Russians as people.  
 

But the type of government, the leadership, and the values they have.

I feel like the answer is kind of obvious and it’s strange you haven’t given a straight answer.

 

[Sweet]

9 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

 

Funny.  Al-qaeda was not communist though.  Originally to fight communism sure, but it wasn’t mentioned, the charter was about democracy and liberty.  It was Vance, just a couple of weeks ago who said (correctly) in a speech in Europe, that we have to know what we are fighting for.  NATO was for democracy and liberty, not specifically against communism.

 

Edited 5 hours ago by Sweet

[Gregmal]

All this is no better summed up than what happened with the Hunter Biden laptop. I’m not debating the laptop or the Bidens, just the architecture of the ruse so many fall for. 
 

Real information came out that was against the chosen agenda. State sanctioned propaganda agents came out, masquerading as “independent experts” and presented as such by the media with no evidence and just threw out the classic “Russian misinformation” blanket. The media and lots of influential agencies ran with it, no investigation or concern for its accuracy. And huge portions of the population, whether because they are stupid, ignorant, or just a little too caught up rooting for “their team”, fell for it hard. 
 

And that in a nutshell is what 90% of the nonsense in this thread is, dejavu….

[John Hjorth]

Here we go again! : 'HOT!' <and red! >- This time I caught it :

 

Edited 5 hours ago by John Hjorth

[james22]

2 minutes ago, Sweet said:

That’s an answer to a different question.

 

I’m not talking about Ukrainians vs Russians as people.  
 

But the type of government, the leadership, and the values they have.

I feel like the answer is kind of obvious and it’s strange you haven’t given a straight answer.

 

I used to take golf trips to Georgia.

 

It's different.

 

Talking to someone one night, she said if I liked Ukrainian women, I'd love Russian women.

 

I thought that odd, as she'd just told her brother had been killed in the war with Russia.

 

She explained they knew the Russian soldiers weren't to blame, their governments were.

 

They welcomed Russian tourists as fellow sufferers.

 

 

So is a dictatorship worse than a kleptocracy? I suppose.

 

But who cares the fine distinction? They both suck.

[Sweet]

4 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

All this is no better summed up than what happened with the Hunter Biden laptop. I’m not debating the laptop or the Bidens, just the architecture of the ruse so many fall for. 
 

Real information came out that was against the chosen agenda. State sanctioned propaganda agents came out, masquerading as “independent experts” and presented as such by the media with no evidence and just threw out the classic “Russian misinformation” blanket. The media and lots of influential agencies ran with it, no investigation or concern for its accuracy. And huge portions of the population, whether because they are stupid, ignorant, or just a little too caught up rooting for “their team”, fell for it hard. 
 

And that in a nutshell is what 90% of the nonsense in this thread is, dejavu….

 

Nah… you’ll find it hard to find anyone more right-wing than me.  This one isn't the usual left vs right crap.

 

Trump and Russian collusion, never believed it.  Biden laptop, never believed it.  Covid couldn’t be lab based - never believed it.

 

This is not like the others.  You and others, to be kind, clearly were never interested in this topic until quite recently - and you can tell because it Russian talking points easily dredged up on Twitter which you are posting.

 

Look, I’m not saying Russia doesn’t have a point.  I’m not saying Russia should be ignored, they cannot.  I’m not saying there are no counter narratives.  
 

I am saying you are too quick to generalise that this is like all those other events because so and so said x,y and z.  I don’t get that.

[Sweet]

5 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

I used to take golf trips to Georgia.

 

It's different.

 

Talking to someone one night, she said if I liked Ukrainian women, I'd love Russian women.

 

I thought that odd, as she'd just told her brother had been killed in the war with Russia.

 

She explained they knew the Russian soldiers weren't to blame, their governments were.

 

They welcomed Russian tourists as fellow sufferers.

 

 

So is a dictatorship worse than a kleptocracy? I suppose.

 

But who cares the fine distinction? They both suck.

I think the distinctions matter.  But at least that’s an answer.

[james22]

14 minutes ago, Sweet said:

Funny.

 

Seriously: I don't believe Ukraine embodies Western values.

 

And I don't believe defending Ukraine necessarily embodies Western values.

[Sweet]

19 minutes ago, james22 said:

Seriously: I don't believe Ukraine embodies Western values.

For arguments sake let’s say you are right for right now.  They are (well were) committed to those meeting those values.  There were a range of criteria which they’d have to meet to get entry to the EU and NATO which they’d sought.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Sweet

[flesh]

16 hours ago, Sweet said:

You border Canada and Mexico lol.  Two very friendly countries.  Imagine you bordered China.  

Not that anyone cares but I still don’t believe it. My question really was about the would Europe send 150b part? 
 

So China is on the other side of Mexico. They have fought for whatever 15% of southern Mexico and control it.. the usa has spent 150b giving weapons etc to Mexico and we ask Europe to send 150b to Mexico and they do? Then we ask them to continue to send 50b a year indefinitely after three years and they do with no end in sight? Also there’s plenty of evidence that usa has been encroaching closer and closer to chinas borders and they’ve been complaining about it for decades etc. 
 

Again pretty sure they assume we can deal with it from the get go. 
 

of course the above assumes Mexico has no protection agreements w anybody… not going to attempt a perfect analogy. 
 

Europe wouldn’t send us money, they’d help us if it escalated beyond this, like direct war. 
 

Also sweet, seriously end the adhominem attacks against everyone, I don’t know if you’re 6’5” 250 or what but where I’m from you would not last. 
 

I come here to hear thoughtful intelligent people make reasoned arguments, which you do, laced with constant invective. 
 

Are you capable of making your points without attacking the individual or is that your psychic payoff? Do you speak this way to peoples faces? Can we please elevate this board beyond the self control of a Reddit thread? We are better than this. 

[cubsfan]

34 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

Seriously: I don't believe Ukraine embodies Western values.

 

And I don't believe defending Ukraine necessarily embodies Western values.

 

For sure. I for one used to agree with this. I don't anymore. Like Mexico, many residents believe this and want democracy - but Mexico is a failed narco-state, and much of Ukraine is filled with gangsters fleecing the country. Problem is - Zelensky is part of the gangster group.

[james22]

14 minutes ago, Sweet said:

For arguments sake let’s say you are right for right now.  They are (well were) committed to those meeting those values.  There were a range of criteria which they’d have to meet to get entry to the EU and NATO which they’d sought.

 

Again, it doesn't matter.

 

For argument's sake let's say they are Good.

 

They are also weak.

 

And because the EU is also weak, it means it would very costly for the US to secure Ukraine security.

 

While risking nuclear war.

 

We've responsibilities to our own Good people before others.

 

 

[Sweet]

23 minutes ago, flesh said:

Not that anyone cares but I still don’t believe it. My question really was about the would Europe send 150b part? 
 

So China is on the other side of Mexico. They have fought for whatever 15% of southern Mexico and control it.. the usa has spent 150b giving weapons etc to Mexico and we ask Europe to send 150b to Mexico and they do? Then we ask them to continue to send 50b a year indefinitely after three years and they do with no end in sight? Also there’s plenty of evidence that usa has been encroaching closer and closer to chinas borders and they’ve been complaining about it for decades etc. 
 

Again pretty sure they assume we can deal with it from the get go. 
 

of course the above assumes Mexico has no protection agreements w anybody… not going to attempt a perfect analogy. 
 

Europe wouldn’t send us money, they’d help us if it escalated beyond this, like direct war. 
 

Also sweet, seriously end the adhominem attacks against everyone, I don’t know if you’re 6’5” 250 or what but where I’m from you would not last. 
 

I come here to hear thoughtful intelligent people make reasoned arguments, which you do, laced with constant invective. 
 

Are you capable of making your points without attacking the individual or is that your psychic payoff? Do you speak this way to peoples faces? Can we please elevate this board beyond the self control of a Reddit thread? We are better than this. 

I don’t know about 150 bn, but I do know NATO members went to war with the US in Afghanistan.
 

This cost the UK about 37 billion dollars according to ChatGPT.  About 500 lives and 2,500 seriously wounded.

 

Regarding adhominems, I have a rule. I try not to start it but I will return the serve.  
 

If you check above, if I am using adhominems they definitely aren’t against everyone - maybe Greg - but he gives it, and to be fair, he can take it too.

[Sweet]

25 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

Again, it doesn't matter.

 

For argument's sake let's say they are Good.

 

They are also weak.

 

And because the EU is also weak, it means it would very costly for the US to secure Ukraine security.

 

While risking nuclear war.

 

We've responsibilities to our own Good people before others.

 

 

You’re own citizens first, clearly.  And I agree you have no ‘obligation’ to help, and nor does Europe for that matter.
 

*I am not sure what I mean by obligation which is why it’s in ‘’.

 

Edited 4 hours ago by Sweet

[james22]

1 hour ago, Sweet said:

Look, I’m not saying Russia doesn’t have a point. 

 

Appreciating how provocative the NATO expansion was seen might help.

 

 

[Sweet]

8 minutes ago, james22 said:

 

Appreciating how provocative the NATO expansion was seen might help.

 

 

Yes.  Putin said this himself years ago.
 

Equally important a question is why do Russia’s neighbours feel the need to join NATO, a defensive alliance?

 

Are these countries allowed to choose their own future, or should they be dictated to by big neighbours? 
 

The EU is not NATO, why should that be off the table?

 

In all my posts, and I am sure this is obvious by now, I’m not neutral.  I believe in Democracy and Liberty, I’m not on Russia’s side.

 

I think the risk of nuclear war is very small to non-existent, nobody is considering the invasion of Russia.

[james22]

Huh.

 

 

[Xerxes]

there always secondary effects of a long protracted military conflict that lingers on the ruling elite and their thinking. 

 

The longer the war goes, more you will have a hard core segment of the military that will have a hardened “never again” attitude. 
 

Coming out of the Iran-Iraq War, eight years long, you had an entire generation of military commanders who served and had formed a view that that another land war like that should never happen. And their solution was dominance of their neighbours, to ensure that conflicts are fought on other people’ territories. 

In some ways, Ukraine is lucky to have the support of an entire European continent. But if I had to guess, somewhere deep in the bowl of Kiev, they are thinking very hard in putting place plans to become a threshold nuclear state. 

 

And Europe will be ok with that … implicitly. 
 

Has anybody asked Zelenskyy what are his thoughts about building a nuclear arsenal. 

 

[Gregmal]

The main takeaway isn't really even about Russia/Ukraine, it's that there is almost nothing anybody should take serious about Russia or China from US based sources. It's like asking Pelosi or Rachel Maddow about Trump. You have to be super careful with anything that's presented to you, and always ask yourself what the motive is behind it. In this case, it's been warmongering. Remember even early on? The superhoax Ghost of Kiev story that media ran with and everyone ate up? Or the "brave soldiers" who when given the choice to surrender or die choose "Go Fuck Yourself Russia" before being blown up instead of surrendering? Only to then be released alive weeks later? Just kinda sick of all this and the underlying theme is still pro war and pro antagonistic nonsense.