Russia-Ukrainian War - Political

[james22]

Ukraine has long been one of the more corrupt countries in the international system. In its annual report published in January 2022, Transparency International ranked Ukraine 123rd of the 180 countries it examined, with a score of 32 on a one to 100 point scale.

 

By comparison, notoriously corrupt Russia ranked just modestly lower, 139th, with a score of 29.

 

https://www.cato.org/commentary/whitewashing-ukraines-corruption

[james22]

Corruption in Ukraine has its own entry:

 

Corruption is a significant issue in Ukrainian society going back to the dissolution of the Soviet Union in 1991. 

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corruption_in_Ukraine

[Charlie]

The first election results from Germany: CDU (Merz) wins:

• Union: 29 % (+4,9)
• AFD: 19,6 % (+9,2)
• SPD: 16 % (-9,7)
• Grüne: 13,3 % (-1,4)
• Linke 8,6 % (+3,7)
• FDP: 4,9 % (-6,5)
• BSW: 4,7 % (+4,7)

Cheers!

Edited Sunday at 05:43 PM by Charlie

[cubsfan]

19 hours ago, Parsad said:

 

I don't remember a single person on here calling Zelensky a dictator until Trump did so this week.  If you can prove otherwise, especially as it pertains to you, please do so and accept my apologies.  If you can't, then admit that you simply reiterate Trump's weekly talking points!  Cheers!

 

No apology required @Parsad - I owe you and others one though- So yeah, I'll be more careful.

 

Here is what I said several times:

 

12/21/23
Right - unfortunately, Ukraine is going to run out of manpower. Already hearing about forced conscription of any able bodied males on the streets. With the media controlled by the government, and martial law in place , getting the real story is tough.

 

Nobody wants to see Ukraine fail, but recovering the Crimea & Donbas is a pipe dream.

 

 

2/26/24

 

Nice summary - he's a little soft on Zelensky though. He makes him sound like a freedom fighter, but I think the bloom is off the rose on the President.

 

Zelensky has suspended Habeas corpus, instituted martial law, outlawed political parties and elections, etc - so most of that is covered up - as you can't really criticize the guy as far as allies are concerned.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Ukraine get their US aid - but not without a secure US southern border, which is currently a catastrophe - and not too much to ask. Doesn't look like it will happen.

 

But any aid package needs to be audited as Ukraine is still among the most corrupt countries in the world. None of that is hard or too much to ask if you're giving a country $60B.

 

 

5/31/24

Well that is an excellent and important point. Ukraine itself will have to judge what price they wish to pay in lives. Our view shouldn't matter in that regard. As an outside observer, I do not think Ukraine can afford to lose a generation of young men and survive as a nation. In that regard, Putin has them over a barrell with an extended campaign. I do hope that Zelenksky is acting in the majority interest, but I have my doubts with all the corruption and thievery in Ukraine.

 

When you've suspended civil liberties, imposed martial law, canceled elections, outlawed the opposition party - one has to wonder about the current leadership.

Edited May 31, 2024 

 

 

 

 

[cubsfan]

So I apologize for saying this, when I didn't.

 

I don't see the issue of calling him a dictator when his actions (listed above) clearly puts him in that 

category.  Strongman, autocrat, big brother - figure it out for yourself. But democratic President he is not. 

 

There is no reason for all of these actions - particularly outlawing political opposition parties, free press and religious practices. 

 

 

[cubsfan]

4 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

Now share your corruption fidings with us - all of us - , here on CofB&F, Mike [ @cubsfan ] and @james22 .

 

That's an easy one John - but hey - obviously you don't believe it.

 

[cubsfan]

Who needs liberty when you have your own autocrat:

 

https://www.newsweek.com/ukraine-sure-doesnt-look-like-democracy-anymore-opinion-1844799

 

The catalogue of authoritarian abuses is growing in Ukraine and shows little sign of slowing. Under the guidance of the West's favorite autocrat—Zelensky—it has created a state-controlled church, taken control of all television news, and banned major opposition parties. This far exceeds anything that occurred in recent American or British history. Both of those nations remained fundamentally democratic during war, even a civil war. This latest cancellation of presidential elections in Ukraine destroys any pretense that we are supporting a functioning democracy.

[Ghost]

A random thought.

 

When did killing Commies (Russian/North Korean) go out of style?

 

Back in the 80s we cheered our hero Rambo in Rambo III and the Afghan freedom fighters battling it out with the Soviets.

According to the mass news media the Ukrainians are neo-Nazis.

In summary our current war we have Nazis killing Commies...what is not to love...at a mere cost of 300B.

 

 

 

Yes, I am aware Russia is no longer considered communist. 

 

 

[james22]

56 minutes ago, Ghost said:

In summary our current war we have Nazis killing Commies...what is not to love...at a mere cost of 300B.

 

Nothing, bar the humanitarian cost.

 

The problem with selling the war as Good v Evil makes it more difficult to wind down now that we've been rewarded (Russia suitably exposed/weakened) and only the risk (nuclear war) remains.

[Xerxes]

3 hours ago, Ghost said:

A random thought.

 

When did killing Commies (Russian/North Korean) go out of style?

 

Back in the 80s we cheered our hero Rambo in Rambo III and the Afghan freedom fighters battling it out with the Soviets.

According to the mass news media the Ukrainians are neo-Nazis.

In summary our current war we have Nazis killing Commies...what is not to love...at a mere cost of 300B.

 

 

 

Yes, I am aware Russia is no longer considered communist. 

 

 

when you say ?

 

about late 90s when this dumbass chose to murder innocent people. the newspaper clip below is from circa-“good guy” period 

 

After Rambo III and 9/11  it was no longer cool to help “freedom fighters”. Hollywood had to pivot. Conventional military were to be cool again. All Blackhawk, Abrams and stuff and tough guys in uniform w/ their hot girlfriend back home worrying about them for half of the movie and waving the flag the other half, and night vision goggles w/ green screen for the third half, were war was to be simplified and sterilized like a video game. 

So we got Rambo IV decades later. *sigh* ….  Looking back IV was cool movie. 

 

[John Hjorth]

A LinkedIn post by my [Danish] Minister of Foreigh Affairs Lars Løkke Rasmussen, as a token and sign of the current sentiment here in Europe :

 

 

I think it gives a representative and fair view of the actual and current European sentiment.

 

In short, we are about to finally get it and get real and house-trained, so we can stay home alone. It's a war in Europe, therefore a war for Europe to fix and to end. Thus for European countries to do what's required in that regard, thus get the big purse at its place, and pay!

 

- - - o 0 o - - -

 

ISW - Institute For The Study of War [February 21^st 2025] : Ukraine Fact Sheet, February 21, 2025

 

 

Sources and supplementary comments etc. available in the article.

[John Hjorth]

20 hours ago, Xerxes said:

when you say ?

 

about late 90s when this dumbass chose to murder innocent people. the newspaper clip below is from circa-“good guy” period 

 

After Rambo III and 9/11  it was no longer cool to help “freedom fighters”. Hollywood had to pivot. Conventional military were to be cool again. All Blackhawk, Abrams and stuff and tough guys in uniform w/ their hot girlfriend back home worrying about them for half of the movie and waving the flag the other half, and night vision goggles w/ green screen for the third half, were war was to be simplified and sterilized like a video game. 

So we got Rambo IV decades later. *sigh* ….  Looking back IV was cool movie. 

 

 

Actually, great entertainment value, @Xerxes . 

[Parsad]

On 2/23/2025 at 8:06 AM, james22 said:

Bailing out one of the most corrupt countries in the world, requires one to hold their nose.

 

  On 12/14/2023 at 11:16 AM, cubsfan said:

Personally, if Ukraine wasn’t so corrupt, it would make the aid argument easier.

 

  On 5/31/2024 at 7:49 AM, cubsfan said:

I do hope that Zelenksky is acting in the majority interest, but I have my doubts with all the corruption and thievery in Ukraine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Nothing about Zelenskyy being a dictator.  That there is corruption in Ukraine...yes...but nothing about being a dictator.  That's a new Trump talking point being repeated by the faithful!  Cheers!

[Parsad]

On 2/23/2025 at 12:39 PM, cubsfan said:

 

No apology required @Parsad - I owe you and others one though- So yeah, I'll be more careful.

 

Here is what I said several times:

 

12/21/23
Right - unfortunately, Ukraine is going to run out of manpower. Already hearing about forced conscription of any able bodied males on the streets. With the media controlled by the government, and martial law in place , getting the real story is tough.

 

 

Nobody wants to see Ukraine fail, but recovering the Crimea & Donbas is a pipe dream.

 

 

2/26/24

 

 

Nice summary - he's a little soft on Zelensky though. He makes him sound like a freedom fighter, but I think the bloom is off the rose on the President.

 

Zelensky has suspended Habeas corpus, instituted martial law, outlawed political parties and elections, etc - so most of that is covered up - as you can't really criticize the guy as far as allies are concerned.

 

Personally, I'd like to see Ukraine get their US aid - but not without a secure US southern border, which is currently a catastrophe - and not too much to ask. Doesn't look like it will happen.

 

But any aid package needs to be audited as Ukraine is still among the most corrupt countries in the world. None of that is hard or too much to ask if you're giving a country $60B.

 

 

5/31/24

Well that is an excellent and important point. Ukraine itself will have to judge what price they wish to pay in lives. Our view shouldn't matter in that regard. As an outside observer, I do not think Ukraine can afford to lose a generation of young men and survive as a nation. In that regard, Putin has them over a barrell with an extended campaign. I do hope that Zelenksky is acting in the majority interest, but I have my doubts with all the corruption and thievery in Ukraine.

 

When you've suspended civil liberties, imposed martial law, canceled elections, outlawed the opposition party - one has to wonder about the current leadership.

Edited May 31, 2024 

 

 

 

 

 

I think it's fair to say I owe an apology as far as calling Zelenskyy out over some of his behavior...so for that you have my apology.  But you have to admit, even by your own posts, that the dictator talking point is a Trump thing and not something you actually subscribed to.  Cheers!

[Spekulatius]

Not mincing words:

 

[Mephistopheles]

Did Zelensky suspend elections for the "good of the country" given Ukraine being bombed? There is a such thing as benevolent dictator - wasn't Lee Kwon Yun one? 

 

The U.S. does have allies that are not democracies - namely Saudi Arabia.

 

It's a proxy war - NATO vs. Russia and luckily Ukraine is the only one putting up soldiers. We put up the money, they put up the men. 

 

The question is whether its worth fighting Russia or should we just let them take annex Ukraine. There are different ways of looking at it, but if we were going to support them we should have done so hard and fast. Biden slow walked sanctions and fighter jets among other things. Should have been shock and awe from day one.

 

Why is it sacrosanct that we support Israel? Is it the same reason - proxy war (against Iran)? Or is it their lobby? 

[John Hjorth]

4 minutes ago, Mephistopheles said:

Did Zelensky suspend elections for the "good of the country" given Ukraine being bombed? There is a such thing as benevolent dictator - wasn't Lee Kwon Yun one? 

 

The U.S. does have allies that are not democracies - namely Saudi Arabia.

 

It's a proxy war - NATO vs. Russia and luckily Ukraine is the only one putting up soldiers. We put up the money, they put up the men. 

 

The question is whether its worth fighting Russia or should we just let them take annex Ukraine. There are different ways of looking at it, but if we were going to support them we should have done so hard and fast. Biden slow walked sanctions and fighter jets among other things. Should have been shock and awe from day one.

 

Why is it sacrosanct that we support Israel? Is it the same reason - proxy war (against Iran)? Or is it their lobby? 

 

I appreciate your above post, @Mephistopheles,

 

To me personally, there is no way, we would see a peace here, without European peacekeeping troops actually getting involved, in guarding and defending it. Nobody trusts the word of Putin. Seeing American troops involved here would to me not really make any sense. The whole calamity is not a NATO related thingy, it's an European thingy.

[Xerxes]

You guys do realize that London and Washington largely supplied Russia with weapons and arms, with Stalin at the helm in the 1940s. 
 

If Zelensky was a monarch and Ukraine was an absolute monarchy fighting for its freedom, no one would have said anything about election.  
 

Ukraine is being punished because it has a functioning democracy, and hold elections, except in times of war. 
 

That said, I do think you need a “Trump” to knock people around so that they can get off their comfortable seats. And get pass their conventional thinking. His methods obviously needs fine tuning. 

[Xerxes]

4 hours ago, John Hjorth said:

 

Actually, great entertainment value, @Xerxes . 

sarcasm aside, we are witnessing history. 

 

there are decades that nothing happens, and there are weeks that decades happen ~ Lenin (I think) 

[cubsfan]

1 hour ago, Xerxes said:

That said, I do think you need a “Trump” to knock people around so that they can get off their comfortable seats. And get pass their conventional thinking. His methods obviously needs fine tuning. 

 

Indeed - results are what matter, not methods. The country is solidly behind the President.

[Gamecock-YT]

51 minutes ago, cubsfan said:

 

The country is solidly behind the President.

 

In your delusional social media echo chamber, there can be no doubt. 

 

 

 

In the real world:

 

[Grenville]

4 hours ago, cubsfan said:

 

Indeed - results are what matter, not methods. The country is solidly behind the President.

Again using generalizations…gonna get you in trouble. Half the country is not solidly behind the president, but if you wanna call your half, “the country”, then yeah or everything you say is 100% right cause you say so than sure…

 

at the end of the day why come on a message board if you don’t have any doubts or openness. If you know how everything works why waste your time on the board…

[John Hjorth]

Posting this - primarily for our American friends here on CofB&F - just to show how European sentiment is in motion by now, - from Kyiv, yesterday :

 

 

 

[james22]

[cubsfan]

Read and weep brothers:

 

72% OF VOTERS SUPPORT THE EXISTENCE OF A U.S. GOVERNMENT AGENCY FOCUSED ON EFFICIENCY INITIATIVES

 

In his first month in office, President Donald Trump’s approval rating is at 52%, with voters most satisfied with his job on immigration, reducing the cost of the government, and returning America to its values.

 

“People are taking a generally positive wait-and-see attitude for Trump but have really reassessed their attitudes toward Biden, Harris, and the Democrats, taking a much harsher, more negative attitude,” said Mark Penn, Co-Director of the Harvard CAPS / Harris poll.

 

72% of voters say they want Ukraine to negotiate a settlement with Russia instead of winning the war. 

• 67% of voters say the current level of U.S. federal government debt is unsustainable.
• 83% of voters favor reducing government expenditures over increasing taxes, and 77% say a full examination of all government expenditures is necessary.
• 70% of voters say government expenditures are filled with waste, fraud, and inefficiency (Democrats: 58%; Republicans: 78%; Independents: 75%), and 69% support the goal of cutting $1 trillion of government expenditures.
• 60% of voters think DOGE is helping make major cuts in government expenditures.

Tough message from American citizens regarding current US President's policies.

 

Hate the President all you want - they LOVE his policies.

 

Oh, well.

 

https://harvardharrispoll.com/press-release-february-2025/