Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Sure, Liberty, sure - I know, I know - it's TRUMP'S fault - that's your answer to everything - we ALL appreciate your armchair psychoanalysis. Now back to your meltdown. You're such a cliché. I don't think everything is Trump's fault. Just the things that are, and I point out what they are and why. If you ever have an actual argument to make to support any of your positions, go for it. It would be a nice change for you from the classic gambits of "I'll act like I won the argument so others may think I did" and strawmen arguments ("you think everything's Trump's fault".. what does that even mean? I also think that a lot of things are Putin's fault (or Harvey Weinstein's fault), because he did them, but I don't think everything is Putin's (or Weinstein's) fault, but it also doesn't mean I should think nothing is his fault..? What a silly line of thought to do down on..). As for having opinions about people, it's life. We all do it every day. I don't know where it got started that people shouldn't have opinions about the mental states of others. I guess because psychiatrists have a professional code that they can't diagnose people they haven't met, which others have turned into something quite different, which is that nobody else can have an opinion about someone else's mental health. That's interesting in itself, because plenty of mental health professional have come out to say that they think Trump is sick -- they think it's so bad that they had to override their usual restraint in such matters to warn the public. You can't have a solid opinion from just meeting someone, but when you observe someone over years and years and hundreds and hundreds of hours of talks and interviews and reports from those around them about their behavior, the picture becomes a lot clearer. I mean, when I look at Tom Cruise being interviewed by Oprah that time, I think there's a high chance he was heavily depressed. It's just pattern matching and looking at the facts. When I look at Trump, I see all the signs of a sociopath with narcissistic personality disorder. Those signs are codified, they lead the observable behaviors. They mean something. For borderline and subtle cases, it can be hard to know, you have a high degree of uncertainty, it's a probabilistic judgement call. But with Trump, it's clear as day. I'd be way more surprised if he wasn't these things, that would raise a lot more questions, because he's certainly not behaving in a neurotypical way.
ERICOPOLY Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Thanks for more of your bloviating bullshit Liberty - keep going from one hoax to the next - just makes you look stupid. Now back to your meltdown. keep the stupidity coming bro... just makes you look stupid. try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. cubsfan is abusive and controlling. He cannot tolerate the contribution of others if they do not agree with his core beliefs, so he berates them in an attempt to silence them..
cwericb Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 ... and “poof”, just like that, Cubsfan rides off into the sunset when he is exposed for the troll he is. Perhaps he will be off to infect another thread for a while now. Anything to avoid having to support his position.
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 ... and “poof”, just like that, Cubsfan rides off into the sunset when he is exposed for the troll he is. Perhaps he will be off to infect another thread for a while now. Anything to avoid having to support his position. Nah, he doesn't have the introspection capability to update. He'll just keep saying the same thing over and over again, forever, smug in his belief that he's the smartest and most correct and we're all dumb idiots.
cwericb Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 He has probably just been posting out of boredom, now that school is out.
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Thanks for more of your bloviating bullshit Liberty - keep going from one hoax to the next - just makes you look stupid. Now back to your meltdown. keep the stupidity coming bro... just makes you look stupid. try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. cubsfan is abusive and controlling. He cannot tolerate the contribution of others if they do not agree with his core beliefs, so he berates them in an attempt to silence them.. Listen to you! The pot calling the kettle black!
ERICOPOLY Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Thanks for more of your bloviating bullshit Liberty - keep going from one hoax to the next - just makes you look stupid. Now back to your meltdown. keep the stupidity coming bro... just makes you look stupid. try not to have a meltdown over the President's successes. cubsfan is abusive and controlling. He cannot tolerate the contribution of others if they do not agree with his core beliefs, so he berates them in an attempt to silence them.. Listen to you! The pot calling the kettle black! Sorry, I don't berate people.
cubsfan Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Sure, Liberty, sure - I know, I know - it's TRUMP'S fault - that's your answer to everything - we ALL appreciate your armchair psychoanalysis. Now back to your meltdown. You're such a cliché. I don't think everything is Trump's fault. Just the things that are, and I point out what they are and why. If you ever have an actual argument to make to support any of your positions, go for it. It would be a nice change for you from the classic gambits of "I'll act like I won the argument so others may think I did" and strawmen arguments ("you think everything's Trump's fault".. what does that even mean? I also think that a lot of things are Putin's fault (or Harvey Weinstein's fault), because he did them, but I don't think everything is Putin's (or Weinstein's) fault, but it also doesn't mean I should think nothing is his fault..? What a silly line of thought to do down on..). As for having opinions about people, it's life. We all do it every day. I don't know where it got started that people shouldn't have opinions about the mental states of others. I guess because psychiatrists have a professional code that they can't diagnose people they haven't met, which others have turned into something quite different, which is that nobody else can have an opinion about someone else's mental health. That's interesting in itself, because plenty of mental health professional have come out to say that they think Trump is sick -- they think it's so bad that they had to override their usual restraint in such matters to warn the public. You can't have a solid opinion from just meeting someone, but when you observe someone over years and years and hundreds and hundreds of hours of talks and interviews and reports from those around them about their behavior, the picture becomes a lot clearer. I mean, when I look at Tom Cruise being interviewed by Oprah that time, I think there's a high chance he was heavily depressed. It's just pattern matching and looking at the facts. When I look at Trump, I see all the signs of a sociopath with narcissistic personality disorder. Those signs are codified, they lead the observable behaviors. They mean something. For borderline and subtle cases, it can be hard to know, you have a high degree of uncertainty, it's a probabilistic judgement call. But with Trump, it's clear as day. I'd be way more surprised if he wasn't these things, that would raise a lot more questions, because he's certainly not behaving in a neurotypical way. Geez Liberty - blah, blah, blah, blah, blah - you really think you are something! Tell me more about Tom Cruise and Oprah - I can't wait genius!
Investor20 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 S Korea: Today, south korea’s covid-19 response strategy sits atop three pillars: fast and free testing, expansive tracing technology, and mandatory isolation of the most severe cases. Each pillar was shaped by the epidemics that preceded the 2019 novel coronavirus. ... Zero-Tolerance Isolation To separate the sick from the healthy—and the somewhat sick from the very sick—South Korea’s patients are divided into several groups. The elderly and those with serious illnesses go straight to hospitals. Moderately sick people are sent to isolation dorms, where they’re monitored. And the asymptomatic “contacts” of recently diagnosed cases are asked to self-quarantine at home and use separate bathrooms, dishes, and towels from their cohabitants. Health-service officials check in twice daily to monitor their symptoms. International arrivals are also subject to isolation rules. South Korea requires that foreign arrivals self-isolate for two weeks. Koreans arriving from overseas are required to download an app that registers their symptoms in the days after their arrival. By early April, South Korea reported that more than 170,000 inbound travelers had downloaded the app, and nearly 9,000 of them had reported symptoms requiring hospitalization or mandatory quarantine. (Individuals who violate self-isolation rules face steep fines or, for foreigners, immediate deportation.) If you want to open up the economy then by all means provide masks weekly to everyone in the US, provide fast and free testing, take our cell phones and track our every move to inform tracing, provide free healthcare to those infected...i.e. perform ALL the steps that these Asian countries took, not just the ones that appeal to you. You are citing what appears to be an article written in Atlantic by a staff writer. But the Korean top expert in Covid management, Dr. Kim Woo-Joo doesn't say that is their strategy. Dr. Kim says they got less transmission because of masks and washing hands. I am not sure why western experts advised against using masks. Why WHO still recommends against use of masks. Dr. Kim says clearly he disagrees with WHO about mask recommendation. Now that the masks are recommended by CDC, US will get started manufacturing masks. But this will take time. Korea, Japan, Taiwan, etc were ready with manufacturing facilities in case the next infections (after SARS and MERS). Unfortunately the western world did not. Listen from 17.40. At 18.40 he says its masks and washing hands that helped Koreans. Thats it. Listen to the Korean expert on what Koreans are doing. Not a staff writer in Atlantic.
Read the Footnotes Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Eric, Cubs, Liberty, cwericb and others, please feel free to continue to work out your difference, but could I ask you to take this current discussion to the Politics section? For your convenience, I created a new thread for your current conversation, and maybe it will be useful for other in the future. https://www.cornerofberkshireandfairfax.ca/forum/politics/deck-chairs-on-the-titanic-coronavirus-edition/
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention has quietly released detailed guidance for reopening schools, mass transit and nonessential businesses that had been shut down in an attempt to curb the spread of the coronavirus in the United States. The 60-page document, dated only as May and posted on the website without a formal announcement, comes after some states announced they would lift stay-at-home orders and begin reopening parts of their economies. The CDC has remained largely quiet on the pandemic. Agency officials haven’t held a coronavirus-related briefing in more than two months. The 60-page document comes weeks after some states announced that they would lift stay-at-home orders and would begin reopening parts of their economies. https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/20/coronavirus-cdc-quietly-releases-detailed-guidelines-for-reopening-us.html CDC still seems paralyzed and not playing its role, either because of incompetence or fear of angering Trump. They all saw people getting fired or attacked for contradicting him, and since he himself contradicts himself all the time (from on day to the other it's "shelter in place" to "reopen America"), it's hard to know where to stand to be safe. Of course, Trump is in charge of the CDC as head of the federal government and picked CDC leadership, so all this is his responsibility.
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Article on states hiring contact tracers. Better late than never, I guess: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/21/what-is-a-coronavirus-contact-tracer-and-how-to-get-hired-as-one.html
RichardGibbons Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 It's worthwhile noting that Investor20 is right about the masks. There's a huge amount of value to everyone just wearing masks. That said, it's now a political issue so it will be hard to get everyone wearing masks, but it's still worth doing it.
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 It's worthwhile noting that Investor20 is right about the masks. There's a huge amount of value to everyone just wearing masks. That said, it's now a political issue so it will be hard to get everyone wearing masks, but it's still worth doing it. Of course masks are good. I was also highly in favor of masks early in this thread. You just can't keep saying that masks aren't being pushed because of WHO. It's also because of Trump, who won't even wear one, who won't use his influence and reach to convince people to wear them (one of the main powers of the presidency is explaining things to citizens and persuading them of something), and who didn't order emergency production of PPE months ago despite talking about it repeatedly, and has greatly contributed by his words and actions to politicizing them (should seatbelts and condoms and vaccines also be politicized? so stupid). It's not like other countries can't and haven't pushed masked whatever the WHO said early on, or if they listened at first, haven't later course-corrected rather than kept going in the wrong direction.
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 https://www.nytimes.com/2020/05/20/us/coronavirus-distancing-deaths.html?referringSource=articleShare Even small differences in timing would have prevented the worst exponential growth, which by April had subsumed New York City, New Orleans and other major cities, researchers found. If the United States had begun imposing social distancing measures one week earlier than it did in March, about 36,000 fewer people would have died in the coronavirus outbreak, according to new estimates from Columbia University disease modelers. And if the country had begun locking down cities and limiting social contact on March 1, two weeks earlier than most people started staying home, the vast majority of the nation’s deaths — about 83 percent — would have been avoided, the researchers estimated. Under that scenario, about 54,000 fewer people would have died by early May. [...] After Italy and South Korea had started aggressively responding to the virus, President Trump resisted canceling campaign rallies or telling people to stay home or avoid crowds. The risk of the virus to most Americans was very low, he said. “Nothing is shut down, life & the economy go on,” Mr. Trump tweeted on March 9, suggesting that the flu was worse than the coronavirus. “At this moment there are 546 confirmed cases of CoronaVirus, with 22 deaths. Think about that!”
ERICOPOLY Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 It's worthwhile noting that Investor20 is right about the masks. There's a huge amount of value to everyone just wearing masks. That said, it's now a political issue so it will be hard to get everyone wearing masks, but it's still worth doing it. I overheard a woman yesterday saying "i'm not drinking the cool-aid" (walked into the medical office without a mask). People have bought into the "this is just a hoax" line and won't take precautions. All fallout from politicizing the virus, and this only costs lives and economic damage.
RichardGibbons Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 I overheard a woman yesterday saying "i'm not drinking the cool-aid" (walked into the medical office without a mask). People have bought into the "this is just a hoax" line and won't take precautions. All fallout from politicizing the virus, and this only costs lives and economic damage. The irony is that because of who Trump is, and how his supporters act, it isn't too late for him to support masks. Trump constantly flips positions, and his propaganda network pretends his previous statements don't exist, and his supporters all jump in line. And there's no real political cost to him from flip-flopping. (The non-Trump supporters largely don't need to be persuaded, since the mostly understand science and accepting mild inconvenience for the greater good.) So, if Trump did reverse his position, it would probably work out quite well. But he won't, because he's vain.
Read the Footnotes Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 It's worthwhile noting that Investor20 is right about the masks. There's a huge amount of value to everyone just wearing masks. That said, it's now a political issue so it will be hard to get everyone wearing masks, but it's still worth doing it. I overheard a woman yesterday saying "i'm not drinking the cool-aid" (walked into the medical office without a mask). People have bought into the "this is just a hoax" line and won't take precautions. All fallout from politicizing the virus, and this only costs lives and economic damage. Anchoring Bias. Some of them will never update their estimate of the value of a mask. Same with Trump himself, once he anchored to the hoax narrative, it was all over. Can anyone find an example where Trump says he was wrong about something? At a minimum it doesn't seem to be common.
Jurgis Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Practical-side observations/thoughts of masks: I and my wife wear masks to stores and anywhere we have to interact closely with people. We wear masks at home when someone comes from outside - e.g. we had a chimney sweep come recently. Since mask wearing sucks (I cannot wear a mask and eyeglasses - they fog over), and IMO the infection risk outdoors is very low, we don't wear masks outdoors when we go for walks. I guess this is being bad role model though. ::) It would be nice to be able to buy N95 masks for store visits, but AFAIK they are not reliably available. (Feel free to post pointers if you think they are). I thought about buying face shields for going to stores, but still not sure it's worth it. It's additional hassle, you still have to wear mask underneath and supply is unreliable. (Feel free to post pointers if you have pointers for good supply.) It sucks when a neighbor comes over without a mask and starts talking to you. First, no mask - bad. Second, talking - also bad (worse than just walking by or standing closely and not talking). I don't have a good way to tell them not to do it without them being offended. ::)
vinod1 Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Practical-side observations/thoughts of masks: I and my wife wear masks to stores and anywhere we have to interact closely with people. We wear masks at home when someone comes from outside - e.g. we had a chimney sweep come recently. Since mask wearing sucks (I cannot wear a mask and eyeglasses - they fog over), and IMO the infection risk outdoors is very low, we don't wear masks outdoors when we go for walks. I guess this is being bad role model though. ::) It would be nice to be able to buy N95 masks for store visits, but AFAIK they are not reliably available. (Feel free to post pointers if you think they are). I thought about buying face shields for going to stores, but still not sure it's worth it. It's additional hassle, you still have to wear mask underneath and supply is unreliable. (Feel free to post pointers if you have pointers for good supply.) It sucks when a neighbor comes over without a mask and starts talking to you. First, no mask - bad. Second, talking - also bad (worse than just walking by or standing closely and not talking). I don't have a good way to tell them not to do it without them being offended. ::) Most asian stores (Chinese or Indian) have KN95 masks, which I am told are quite similar if not same as N95. Bought a few myself. There are kids versions of those masks too. That one I do not trust as much but still likely better than cloth I think. This also has the added benefit that you are not taking away N95 masks from the front line workers. Vinod
LC Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Right - the question is not whether masks are effective. It has been proven that they are. It's a respiratory virus, for pete's sake - of course masks will be effective. The question(s) are why masks are not widespread. Liberty addressed this one at least hitting the main points (poor federal leadership - a common theme during this pandemic). And the follow up is, if mask use does become widespread - is this sufficient to "reopen" the US economy?
Liberty Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 Politicizing masks further: "I didn't want to give the press the pleasure of seeing it," Trump says he wore a mask at the Ford plant behind the scenes, but not in front of the cameras.
patience_and_focus Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 It's worthwhile noting that Investor20 is right about the masks. There's a huge amount of value to everyone just wearing masks. That said, it's now a political issue so it will be hard to get everyone wearing masks, but it's still worth doing it. Of course masks are good. I was also highly in favor of masks early in this thread. You just can't keep saying that masks aren't being pushed because of WHO. It's also because of Trump, who won't even wear one, who won't use his influence and reach to convince people to wear them (one of the main powers of the presidency is explaining things to citizens and persuading them of something), and who didn't order emergency production of PPE months ago despite talking about it repeatedly, and has greatly contributed by his words and actions to politicizing them (should seatbelts and condoms and vaccines also be politicized? so stupid). It's not like other countries can't and haven't pushed masked whatever the WHO said early on, or if they listened at first, haven't later course-corrected rather than kept going in the wrong direction. Hallmarks of a good investor (and should I dare say someone who is good at anything else) is to realize their mistakes if they have been made (they don't even have to publicize them) and course correct when facts change on the ground. Can't say that with the current white house - https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/21/trump-doesnt-wear-coronavirus-mask-to-ford-plant.html
Gregmal Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 I'm not really sure how masks are a political issue. Its common sense, and low risk to just wear one. Given whats going on, its stupid not to, at least right now. What part of this involves politics?
patience_and_focus Posted May 21, 2020 Posted May 21, 2020 I'm not really sure how masks are a political issue. Its common sense, and low risk to just wear one. Given whats going on, its stupid not to, at least right now. What part of this involves politics? Clearly many in the white house have not gotten this memo and are setting a different example for their supporters to emulate.
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