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Finding jobs difficult in Canada?


shalab
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So whenever the evidence turns against your popularly held belief, you ignore it? I am seeing quite a few posts in this board and in quora as well that says Canada is a much better version of the U.S. However, when one checks the data - it is not the case. I am double checking the assumptions in this board which has a lot of Canadians.

 

Is this a new episode of the weekly "I have a tickle about Canada and I want to scratch it!" series for threads by Shalab?

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Hey all:

 

I can very much confirm that at least for YOUNG people in the Windsor ONT area, jobs (more than part time) were almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a few years ago (2015).

 

It was so bad, that I knew several young people (very late 20' & very early 30's) trying to get jobs in Detroit!

 

Think about that for a second...the job situation was so bad for young people, they were trying to come to DETROIT to get work.

 

I've stayed in contact with some of those people, and the situation in the last 1-2 years has improved for many of them.  A couple moved to Western Canada (Alberta?) and got decent jobs.  A couple managed to get into Detroit and got jobs.  One moved to Toronto area and got a job...and one stayed in Windsor and is semi-employed.

 

I got the impression that Canada is a great place if you have money.  It is great if you are established or connected...much more difficult if you are relatively recently out of college and looking to get a job/get established.

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Hey all:

 

I can very much confirm that at least for YOUNG people in the Windsor ONT area, jobs (more than part time) were almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a few years ago (2015).

 

It was so bad, that I knew several young people (very late 20' & very early 30's) trying to get jobs in Detroit!

 

Think about that for a second...the job situation was so bad for young people, they were trying to come to DETROIT to get work.

 

I've stayed in contact with some of those people, and the situation in the last 1-2 years has improved for many of them.  A couple moved to Western Canada (Alberta?) and got decent jobs.  A couple managed to get into Detroit and got jobs.  One moved to Toronto area and got a job...and one stayed in Windsor and is semi-employed.

 

I got the impression that Canada is a great place if you have money.  It is great if you are established or connected...much more difficult if you are relatively recently out of college and looking to get a job/get established.

Yea, you keep saying that. The problem is that Windsor is basically our version of Flint.

 

Do you think that if I were to collect anecdotes from a few young people in Flint those would be representative of the United States?

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Hey all:

 

I can very much confirm that at least for YOUNG people in the Windsor ONT area, jobs (more than part time) were almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a few years ago (2015).

 

It was so bad, that I knew several young people (very late 20' & very early 30's) trying to get jobs in Detroit!

 

Think about that for a second...the job situation was so bad for young people, they were trying to come to DETROIT to get work.

 

 

I grew up in an economically depressed area in Germany. There were no jobs locally, so you just have to move someplace else. Despite having virtually full employment and plenty of jobs, some people are nevertheless unemployed, because they just don’t want or can’t move out of the area. This is the case in many areas in the US, but traditionally the mobility in the US has been higher than in Europe and I believe Canada as well. When you think of it in terms of landmass, you can’t get a decent job in 95% if the US.

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So whenever the evidence turns against your popularly held belief, you ignore it? I am seeing quite a few posts in this board and in quora as well that says Canada is a much better version of the U.S. However, when one checks the data - it is not the case. I am double checking the assumptions in this board which has a lot of Canadians.

 

Is this a new episode of the weekly "I have a tickle about Canada and I want to scratch it!" series for threads by Shalab?

What evidence? You didn't provide any. All you did is provide 2 links to blog posts that say that Pakistani emigrants don't do very well in Canada. Maybe so, but so what? In a race someone will always be last.

 

Again you say that you get "the tickle" because on quora people are saying that Canada is a version of the us but when you check the data it's not the case. Then I'm assuming that you've checked the data. So where is it. Please share the comparative data for Pakistani immigrants to the US to see if they're doing better there than Canada.

 

Show me the evidence. Because so far I have nothing to ignore.

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Hey all:

 

I can very much confirm that at least for YOUNG people in the Windsor ONT area, jobs (more than part time) were almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a few years ago (2015).

 

It was so bad, that I knew several young people (very late 20' & very early 30's) trying to get jobs in Detroit!

 

Think about that for a second...the job situation was so bad for young people, they were trying to come to DETROIT to get work.

 

 

I grew up in an economically depressed area in Germany. There were no jobs locally, so you just have to move someplace else. Despite having virtually full employment and plenty of jobs, some people are nevertheless unemployed, because they just don’t want or can’t move out of the area. This is the case in many areas in the US, but traditionally the mobility in the US has been higher than in Europe and I believe Canada as well. When you think of it in terms of landmass, you can’t get a decent job in 95% if the US.

 

Are you still in Germany? Would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on the current economic situation and how you see the Eur going forward. Thanks.

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So whenever the evidence turns against your popularly held belief, you ignore it? I am seeing quite a few posts in this board and in quora as well that says Canada is a much better version of the U.S. However, when one checks the data - it is not the case. I am double checking the assumptions in this board which has a lot of Canadians.

 

Is this a new episode of the weekly "I have a tickle about Canada and I want to scratch it!" series for threads by Shalab?

What evidence? You didn't provide any. All you did is provide 2 links to blog posts that say that Pakistani emigrants don't do very well in Canada. Maybe so, but so what? In a race someone will always be last.

 

Again you say that you get "the tickle" because on quora people are saying that Canada is a version of the us but when you check the data it's not the case. Then I'm assuming that you've checked the data. So where is it. Please share the comparative data for Pakistani immigrants to the US to see if they're doing better there than Canada.

 

Show me the evidence. Because so far I have nothing to ignore.

 

 

Justin Bieber just got U.S. citizenship.  You just lost this whole discussion.

 

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The US and Canada have a lot in common and IMO continue to be great potential destinations for immigrants.

 

But there are "cultural" differences in the host countries and that may account for unobservable self-selection differences for the immigrants, which is difficult to measure.

 

The host countries selection criteria are also different and shalab, whether his questioning is genuine or not, may have a point. The Canadian immigration system has evolved, over the years, to increase the level of education and skills for incoming immigrants. This has been shown to "work" in the sense that the immigrant profile shows a higher education level. However, some research shows that this has not translated into a better economic result (income, poverty level), at least for the initial period after arriving in the host country. The US, somehow, for this part, seems to be better even if no similar changes have been made in the selection criteria. Helpful to remember that there is an awareness and a process going on to improve the integration challenge.

 

The difference between the European descent and other places in the world can be explained, at least for the initial period, because the cultural distance is greater. Over time, these differences tend to disappear especially with the second generation and this phenomenon has also been shown in the US.

 

Immigration is a two way street, but people usually emigrate in order to increase the range of opportunities.

https://sencanada.ca/en/senators/ataullahjan-salma/

http://www.parl.ca/iia/Default.aspx?DCId=4&DTId=1&P=1388_interview-SalmaAtaullahjan&Language=E

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Do many Europeans or Americans immigrate to Canada?  I have known a small handful of people who moved, but have met a TON of Canadians who moved to the US.

 

My guess is cost is the biggest reason.  We were just in Canada last week for a short vacation. We spent some time driving the countryside in S Ontario.  My wife was blown away by how expensive houses were "nowhere".

 

With current house prices Canada reminded me of California.  A great place to live and raise a family if you were able to move there 30 years ago. Right now the economics don't seem to make sense. Jobs pay the same or less, and houses cost 2-3x more than here.  Maybe it's cheaper in Manitoba or something? I don't know.

 

It's an awesome country, but if it were a stock it seems slightly overvalued.  If you're looking to move you probably need to wait for a correction.  Or if they've changed immigration to only allow professionals then this might be how it is forever, and in that case build up a lot of wealth in the US and then retire in Canada when you can afford it.

 

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Do many Europeans or Americans immigrate to Canada?  I have known a small handful of people who moved, but have met a TON of Canadians who moved to the US.

 

My guess is cost is the biggest reason.  We were just in Canada last week for a short vacation. We spent some time driving the countryside in S Ontario.  My wife was blown away by how expensive houses were "nowhere".

 

With current house prices Canada reminded me of California.  A great place to live and raise a family if you were able to move there 30 years ago. Right now the economics don't seem to make sense. Jobs pay the same or less, and houses cost 2-3x more than here.  Maybe it's cheaper in Manitoba or something? I don't know.

 

It's an awesome country, but if it were a stock it seems slightly overvalued.  If you're looking to move you probably need to wait for a correction.  Or if they've changed immigration to only allow professionals then this might be how it is forever, and in that case build up a lot of wealth in the US and then retire in Canada when you can afford it.

 

The pattern of country-of-origin immigration has followed a very similar course for both the US and Canada with Europeans now forming a minority.

 

In my line of work, brain drain to the US (and those looking for larger incomes) in the 1990's was a relatively significant problem but the trend has become neutral and (numbers show) has started to reverse. In general, my understanding of the net migration number between the US and Canada is that it has been pretty much neutral for a while.

 

The US continues to be a potential magnet for talent (students and professionals) and I would say that the net migration for the retiring/retired will be in the direction of the US because of climate unless you like ski-doo (that could eventually be my case).

 

https://www.migrationpolicy.org/article/canadian-immigrants-united-states

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There's a difference between moving for short-term versus long-term benefits.

 

Sure, with experience and connections you could make a lot more in the US than in Canada. But net of taxes, health care coverage, stress, widespread gun usage, and the xenophobia of US society - is it really worth it in the long term? Or is it better to BASE the family in Canada (long-term benefit), and simply travel to/from Canada for that work (short-term benefit)?

 

If you want an amah to look after your young kids you're better off in Asia, simply because you will not earn enough to afford the same thing in a Canada or a US. Hence the young person who moved for the money (short-term), moves home in middle-age; and is really a MIGRANT versus an IMMIGRANT. Not what a young person wants to hear.

 

The only 'short-cut' is family/friends helping you out in the new country with shelter and job; otherwise you grind it out, the same as everyone else.

Again - not what a young person accustomed to instant gratification, wants to hear.

 

There are more jobs for young people in Canada, than there are young people; we just don't like what they pay, what's involved, or that they are dead-end. Your choices are to either make your own (better) job, vote with your feet, or put up with it as a means to an end.

 

Nothing wrong in any of that.

 

SD

 

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There's a difference between moving for short-term versus long-term benefits.

 

Sure, with experience and connections you could make a lot more in the US than in Canada. But net of taxes, health care coverage, stress, widespread gun usage, and the xenophobia of US society - is it really worth it in the long term? Or is it better to BASE the family in Canada (long-term benefit), and simply travel to/from Canada for that work (short-term benefit)?

 

If you want an amah to look after your young kids you're better off in Asia, simply because you will not earn enough to afford the same thing in a Canada or a US. Hence the young person who moved for the money (short-term), moves home in middle-age; and is really a MIGRANT versus an IMMIGRANT. Not what a young person wants to hear.

 

The only 'short-cut' is family/friends helping you out in the new country with shelter and job; otherwise you grind it out, the same as everyone else.

Again - not what a young person accustomed to instant gratification, wants to hear.

 

There are more jobs for young people in Canada, than there are young people; we just don't like what they pay, what's involved, or that they are dead-end. Your choices are to either make your own (better) job, vote with your feet, or put up with it as a means to an end.

 

Nothing wrong in any of that.

 

SD

 

 

Most jobs that family and friends could get for you are not professional jobs.  Sure, family and friends can get you a minimum-wage-plus job, but jobs like that are not commensurate with the education level of a large swath of immigrants.

 

No, I'd say that newcomers face some of the same challenges that befuddle educated Canadian graduates.  The degree means only a bit more than diddly-squat.  It might get you on the door for an interview, but soft skills will determine who gets the job.  Personal presentability, communication skills, manners, listening skills and general street smarts are required to supplement that Masters or PhD.  There are plenty of we'll educated, but clueless Canadian born people who will never achieve much more than a Starbucks job because they lack the soft skills.  It just takes one or two awkward moments or boneheaded comments to sink you during a job interview. 

 

Some immigrants lack communication skills and do not understand cultural cues, which sinks them right off.  So how do they improve their cultural sensitivity and communication skills so they can make the cut?  Some actively listen, learn and integrate for a few years while others focus their attention on their expat community and ghettoize themselves.  Whose failure is that?

 

 

Sj

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Not sure about non-Europeans but I was at a Maddy's in Toronto on Saturday and met a bunch of Irish guys who told me that they didn't believe it possible that a person would not be able to find a job in Canada and that it was much much more difficult in Ireland. This really confused me because a year ago I talked to an Irish girl in Pharma who told me she managed to get a job after 1 week of searching in Ireland but it took her 6 months in Canada.

 

So two completely opposite stories about the same countries. I guess it depends on your field, experience, the local situation, the state of the economy and a whole host of factors.

 

My guess is cost is the biggest reason.  We were just in Canada last week for a short vacation. We spent some time driving the countryside in S Ontario.  My wife was blown away by how expensive houses were "nowhere".

 

I have actually begun thinking in that direction. In the past the real prime mover was better opportunities. The US is 10 times the size of Canada after all. But I was talking from someone from Wisconsin who was paying $500 dollars to rent a 3 bedroom and she considered that expensive. Blew my mind!

 

Canadian real estate is a real issue that effects quality of life.

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This is from my personal experience and from having talked to a few people.

I moved to Toronto about 5 years ago. I have a Comp Sci background and had worked in a top US ecommerce company. After a couple of weeks of search and a week of interviews I had 4 offers but all of those from Canadian subs of US companies. No Canadian company even contacted my after I had applied, not in those weeks of my search nor in the interview week nor afterwards. I had relevant experience as advertised in the job reqs. so lack of fit can be ruled out.

 

 

My wife, who is a statistician, had a horrible time. She had worked in US for major pharma companies for about 5 years, studied in US for 5 years prior to that and has quite good communication skills. She wasn't entertained because she didn't have enough "Canadian experience" whatever that means as distinct from "American experience".  I've heard this lack of "Canadian experience" often being a barrier.

 

 

After all these years I am still puzzled how a Canadian experience is distinct from an American experience especially for individual contributor (and non customer facing) roles.

 

 

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There's a difference between moving for short-term versus long-term benefits.

 

Sure, with experience and connections you could make a lot more in the US than in Canada. But net of taxes, health care coverage, stress, widespread gun usage, and the xenophobia of US society - is it really worth it in the long term? Or is it better to BASE the family in Canada (long-term benefit), and simply travel to/from Canada for that work (short-term benefit)?

 

If you want an amah to look after your young kids you're better off in Asia, simply because you will not earn enough to afford the same thing in a Canada or a US. Hence the young person who moved for the money (short-term), moves home in middle-age; and is really a MIGRANT versus an IMMIGRANT. Not what a young person wants to hear.

 

The only 'short-cut' is family/friends helping you out in the new country with shelter and job; otherwise you grind it out, the same as everyone else.

Again - not what a young person accustomed to instant gratification, wants to hear.

 

There are more jobs for young people in Canada, than there are young people; we just don't like what they pay, what's involved, or that they are dead-end. Your choices are to either make your own (better) job, vote with your feet, or put up with it as a means to an end.

 

Nothing wrong in any of that.

 

SD

 

 

Most jobs that family and friends could get for you are not professional jobs.  Sure, family and friends can get you a minimum-wage-plus job, but jobs like that are not commensurate with the education level of a large swath of immigrants.

 

 

I hired work out to an engineering firm here in Calgary, and there was a group there almost entirely comprised of people with the same last name, from the same part of India. The first one who got hired got jobs for a variety of extended relations. It probably helped that they all had excellent English and great technical skills... I suspect that combination would have set them up for success anyway, but having a good place to land probably sped up the transition.

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Hey all:

 

I can very much confirm that at least for YOUNG people in the Windsor ONT area, jobs (more than part time) were almost IMPOSSIBLE to get a few years ago (2015).

 

It was so bad, that I knew several young people (very late 20' & very early 30's) trying to get jobs in Detroit!

 

Think about that for a second...the job situation was so bad for young people, they were trying to come to DETROIT to get work.

 

 

I grew up in an economically depressed area in Germany. There were no jobs locally, so you just have to move someplace else. Despite having virtually full employment and plenty of jobs, some people are nevertheless unemployed, because they just don’t want or can’t move out of the area. This is the case in many areas in the US, but traditionally the mobility in the US has been higher than in Europe and I believe Canada as well. When you think of it in terms of landmass, you can’t get a decent job in 95% if the US.

 

Are you still in Germany? Would be very interesting to hear your thoughts on the current economic situation and how you see the Eur going forward. Thanks.

 

I have lived in the US for 20 years, but the rest of my family lives there and I have contacts and visited a couple of time recently, so I know what is going on.

 

The economy is doing great and there is virtually  full employment, no problem whatsoever except insome pockets in East Germany perhaps. The biggest issue is immigration - there are about 1 Million refugeees in Germany, many with a checkered background, as far as one call tell. This is way higher than what most consider the “load bearing capacity” to integrate in the society.

And it has really upset many people and Kanzlerin Merkel is (rightfully IMO) blamed for the debacle. Because the two major went into a frat coalition to keep in power many people feel that voting for either one accomplishes nothing, so now we have the right win populist party in the upswing (Afd) just like in other parts of Europe. I have no idea how this will work out but I do think we will see some. changes in the political landscape.

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