Alekbaylee Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 I think we all know that Germany was a republic at one time. But changes in ideology take hold due to economic circumstances...we are witnessing something similar, hopefully to a far lesser degree, globally. The only way to protect a democracy is to never let that type of ideology take hold. Once half the population starts to buy the propaganda, the half truths, alternative facts...well, you have a problem. Exactly!
DCG Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 He is a f**kin' lunatic. https://youtu.be/XRnVdgmnBHA (How do you embed Youtube videos on here? It happens automatically on all other forums I'm on.) Taxpayer funds paying for wall construction and resources spent on "voter fraud" in an election he won Regarding Mexico paying for the stupid wall. [/size]"Ultimately it will come out of what's happening with Mexico". [/size]I’m just telling you, there will be a payment. It will be in a form. Perhaps a complicated form”. [/size]WTF does this even mean?
rkbabang Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 When people are coming in ILLEGALLY to hurt people, infringing on their rights, sometime killing them, how is that interpreted by Libertarian Greats? By the way, if they want to fly North and walk accross, I wish them luck. People may not know this but, the Northern border is quite secure with patrols, sophisticated detection equipment and both countries are taking this seriously. I don't get what is so hard to understand. We want people to follow the law. It is not like a new is being introduced, it is already a law. Some people are violent criminals. You don't know that they are violent criminals until they have committed a crime. You then deal with violent criminals as you should regardless of where they were born. Unless you have pre-crime technology to figure out who is going to hurt people and sometimes kill them. If you do, why shouldn't we deport American citizens that will be future criminals too? Maybe drop them from helicopters. To your second point "it is the law...", I know what the current immigration laws are, I just disagree with them. For one, they are unenforceable. I wasn't joking when I said "Do Mexicans have boats". There are quite a few Cubans in the US right now and as far as I know not a single one of them walked.
Peregrine Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 " Complexity and nuance exists and we should all strive to seek the other point of view just as vigorously as we sought our own." LOL. Well I don't think that you achieved that by telling me that I was deeply ignorant. Cardboard I call things like I see it, Cardboard. What you were advocating for would lead to very tenuous ground. For China, deliberate action to break up One China and other actions to divide the country is tantamount to war.
Alekbaylee Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 For those who support Trump, as a scientist, I find that it is what is the most scary thing: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/trump-administration-restricts-news-from-federal-scientists-at-usda-epa/ This is a dangerous path. Of course, a lot of you don't care about the subtle change and the erosion of your democracy, as long it is strengthening the economy in the sort term. Reminds me what we experienced here in Canada under Harper government when scientists were forbidden to express any opinion or communicate the results of their research without his Cabinet approval. And I think Trump is by far worse than Harper. Just wait and see...
SharperDingaan Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Keep in mind that building 'a wall' serves 2 purposes; (1) defense of territory to keep others out; and (2) defense of ideology, to keep people in. The 'wall' doesn't need to be physical, or even secure - it just needs to be a barrier (trade tariff etc.). Most folks get the keeping others out. It's why we have militaries, and the projections of might - its always better to defuse tensions via proxy wars on other peoples lands, than have those bombs go off at home. Of course if you're one of those stuck in that proxy war, your viewpoint might be a little different. Defense of ideology is about using fear to manufacture 'us versus them'. A citizen living in a wealthy, gated enclave with security to keep the riff-raff out, usually feels pretty good. The enclave, or skyscraper, allows the opportunity to display a little wealth - & show you've 'arrived'. So it doesn't go down well; when one points out there's little difference between the inmates in a gulag, and the wealthy in that enclave - same fence, guns, people living inside a compound, etc. Gilding the cage changes point of view, but it doesn't change what it is. To 'tear down the wall' (Reagan), is to allow 'hybridization' to the societal benefit of all - except those in power. Hence 'set' the game by putting up 'a wall', & sell tickets to live within the compound ...... Trump Tower? SD
Cardboard Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 "I call things like I see it, Cardboard. What you were advocating for would lead to very tenuous ground. For China, deliberate action to break up One China and other actions to divide the country is tantamount to war." Right and in your infinite wisdom (when you call someone deeply ignorant then I guess that makes you deeply knowledgeable) you didn't think that I had foreseen that possibility? Cardboard
Alekbaylee Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 i take comfort in the fact that mexicans can now fly to canada and walk across the northern border, should it prove necessary. Haha! That's hilarious! Don't tell anyone, otherwise Trump's going to build a wall along Canada's border, and make us pay for it! If all this madness continues the way it has started I think we might see more US citizens than Mexicans flee "great" Trumpanistan to seek refuge in ours. Luckily for them I don't think our government will turn them back (even if they come in ILLEGALLY) or build a wall between our 2 countries.
Cardboard Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Keep listening to artists Alekbaylee. Snoop Dog may have done it, who else??? Americans love their country and will stay right where they are. There is a division of power in the U.S. that is quite unique or that makes our parlimentary system looking like a dictatorship right now: majority rules. Trump will do a few things via executive orders but, his own party will keep a tight leash on him regarding spending, taxes and any other thing he may do. Cardboard
DTEJD1997 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Taxpayer funds paying for wall construction and resources spent on "voter fraud" in an election he won I don't think there is any question that voter fraud is occurring. The question is HOW MUCH of it is going on. How is that? A). A "bigwig" (Alan Schulkin, Commissioner of Board of Elections NYC) is caught on tape discussing how they bus people into certain districts to vote, he also goes on to discuss other types of fraud and that massive fraud is going on: http://www.dailywire.com/news/9876/watch-nyc-dem-election-official-caught-video-there-amanda-prestigiacomo Why did this not get more attention? Absolutely shocking.... B). Here in Michigan almost half of the voting districts in Detroit did not have their votes recounted as there were problems with the ballot box (being unlocked), the number of people showing up to vote didn't match the number of ballots cast, and on & on. Mind you, not all of this is due to voter fraud. Sometimes there was 1 more ballot cast than recorded, so that is more likely a clerical error than a scam going on....but there certainly were goofy things going on. Simply the fact that there is so much sloppiness & error is a scandal in of itself. C). Many, many states are embroiled in litigation in regards to voter ID. I have to show ID to enter federal buildings, courts, libraries, casinos, etc. How do so many people go through life without any ID? Are poor minority people of such destitution that they can't afford the $5 to get a state ID? How do they drive? They can't figure this out? Just pondering this out loud. Q: Why would you NOT want ID's to be checked when voting? A: In order to enable wide scale voter fraud. D). When I was living in Houston Texas, there were millions of illegal immigrants. Most of them were hard working, decent people. HOWEVER, you can't tell me that some of them aren't voting. Is it 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000, more? Nobody really knows. E). In the last election, there were districts in OH & PA where Mitt Romney (and others) received 0,1,2 votes. These were almost all in minority districts. No doubt, Obama was going to win these districts and win them heavily....but the Republican wouldn't get 1% of the vote? The Green party wouldn't get 1%? Obama got 100% or 99.9%? This wasn't 1 or 2 districts...this went on in many districts. If that happened in more than 1 or 2 districts, I would think alone would be evidence of fraud going on... This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure that there are other things going on. So yes, there is voter fraud going on, just a question of how much, and how much an effect it has on the outcome.
onyx1 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 If all this madness continues the way it has started I think we might see more US citizens than Mexicans flee "great" Trumpanistan to seek refuge in ours. Please, make my day! http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3927506/Celebrities-promised-leave-Canada-decide-stay-just-coincidence-Trump-planning-tax-cuts.html
Gregmal Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Taxpayer funds paying for wall construction and resources spent on "voter fraud" in an election he won I don't think there is any question that voter fraud is occurring. The question is HOW MUCH of it is going on. How is that? A). A "bigwig" (Alan Schulkin, Commissioner of Board of Elections NYC) is caught on tape discussing how they bus people into certain districts to vote, he also goes on to discuss other types of fraud and that massive fraud is going on: http://www.dailywire.com/news/9876/watch-nyc-dem-election-official-caught-video-there-amanda-prestigiacomo Why did this not get more attention? Absolutely shocking.... B). Here in Michigan almost half of the voting districts in Detroit did not have their votes recounted as there were problems with the ballot box (being unlocked), the number of people showing up to vote didn't match the number of ballots cast, and on & on. Mind you, not all of this is due to voter fraud. Sometimes there was 1 more ballot cast than recorded, so that is more likely a clerical error than a scam going on....but there certainly were goofy things going on. Simply the fact that there is so much sloppiness & error is a scandal in of itself. C). Many, many states are embroiled in litigation in regards to voter ID. I have to show ID to enter federal buildings, courts, libraries, casinos, etc. How do so many people go through life without any ID? Are poor minority people of such destitution that they can't afford the $5 to get a state ID? How do they drive? They can't figure this out? Just pondering this out loud. Q: Why would you NOT want ID's to be checked when voting? A: In order to enable wide scale voter fraud. D). When I was living in Houston Texas, there were millions of illegal immigrants. Most of them were hard working, decent people. HOWEVER, you can't tell me that some of them aren't voting. Is it 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000, more? Nobody really knows. E). In the last election, there were districts in OH & PA where Mitt Romney (and others) received 0,1,2 votes. These were almost all in minority districts. No doubt, Obama was going to win these districts and win them heavily....but the Republican wouldn't get 1% of the vote? The Green party wouldn't get 1%? Obama got 100% or 99.9%? This wasn't 1 or 2 districts...this went on in many districts. If that happened in more than 1 or 2 districts, I would think alone would be evidence of fraud going on... This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure that there are other things going on. So yes, there is voter fraud going on, just a question of how much, and how much an effect it has on the outcome. I've stayed out of this mainly because most people can't seem to have a rational conversation on the subject of Trump, but this sentiment is spot on. Who cares who won the election; shouldn't something that undermines the entire election process such as voter fraud be investigated and taken seriously? It seems that with certain crowds, they are just set on being petty. Prior to the election, I dubbed it the "forest for the trees" crowd. Now they are just sour whiners. For instance, Trump comes in and immediately starts doing what he promised he'd do, and people find new hairs to split to call him a hypocrite. For God's sake, he came in and said we were getting ripped off on F-35 and AF1 deals and people complained!!! How dare he try to get better deals. This is partially what I think is needed. A politician has no clue what to do when negotiating a deal with a business. He says "I want this!", and goes and buys it regardless of cost because its not coming out of his pocket, it is coming out of ours. Whereas a business man first and foremost determines whether the item in question is a want or a need(big difference), and then sits down at the table and negotiates a deal on terms he finds acceptable because generally he has to justify what he is spending. Its about time we have someone in office who will at least attempt to justify where he's sending our money. I for one found it appalling we're actually funding abortions in foreign countries. Cuz yea, that's totally why I drive to work in the morning(on highways with pot holes the size of basketballs nonetheless/woo hoo infrastructure!)... To have my money taken by the government and wired out of the country to aid abortions in foreign countries. Its not like we could use the money elsewhere...
onyx1 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 If you are still scratching your head over Trump, this short explanation is the best I've seen on how the politically correct bullies sparked a backlash. Mid-American got fed up, voted in a bully of their own, and they are cheering him on. Like it or not, right or wrong, this is how tens of millions of American feel: http://ace.mu.nu/archives/368084.php
vox Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Taxpayer funds paying for wall construction and resources spent on "voter fraud" in an election he won I don't think there is any question that voter fraud is occurring. The question is HOW MUCH of it is going on. How is that? A). A "bigwig" (Alan Schulkin, Commissioner of Board of Elections NYC) is caught on tape discussing how they bus people into certain districts to vote, he also goes on to discuss other types of fraud and that massive fraud is going on: http://www.dailywire.com/news/9876/watch-nyc-dem-election-official-caught-video-there-amanda-prestigiacomo Why did this not get more attention? Absolutely shocking.... B). Here in Michigan almost half of the voting districts in Detroit did not have their votes recounted as there were problems with the ballot box (being unlocked), the number of people showing up to vote didn't match the number of ballots cast, and on & on. Mind you, not all of this is due to voter fraud. Sometimes there was 1 more ballot cast than recorded, so that is more likely a clerical error than a scam going on....but there certainly were goofy things going on. Simply the fact that there is so much sloppiness & error is a scandal in of itself. C). Many, many states are embroiled in litigation in regards to voter ID. I have to show ID to enter federal buildings, courts, libraries, casinos, etc. How do so many people go through life without any ID? Are poor minority people of such destitution that they can't afford the $5 to get a state ID? How do they drive? They can't figure this out? Just pondering this out loud. Q: Why would you NOT want ID's to be checked when voting? A: In order to enable wide scale voter fraud. D). When I was living in Houston Texas, there were millions of illegal immigrants. Most of them were hard working, decent people. HOWEVER, you can't tell me that some of them aren't voting. Is it 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000, more? Nobody really knows. E). In the last election, there were districts in OH & PA where Mitt Romney (and others) received 0,1,2 votes. These were almost all in minority districts. No doubt, Obama was going to win these districts and win them heavily....but the Republican wouldn't get 1% of the vote? The Green party wouldn't get 1%? Obama got 100% or 99.9%? This wasn't 1 or 2 districts...this went on in many districts. If that happened in more than 1 or 2 districts, I would think alone would be evidence of fraud going on... This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure that there are other things going on. So yes, there is voter fraud going on, just a question of how much, and how much an effect it has on the outcome. There seems to be an incredible disconnect among those blasting a 'biased media' while at the same time advocating sources like James O'Keefe's Project Veritas to be factual. He's been criticized extensively for deceptive editing and framing by the Columbia Journalism Review and the Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting organization. The signature O’Keefe method is to try to entrap his subjects into breaking the law. In January, 2010, the F.B.I. arrested O’Keefe and three accomplices, two of whom had disguised themselves as telephone repairmen in order to enter the New Orleans office of Mary Landrieu, then a Democratic senator for Louisiana. (O’Keefe says he had hoped to disprove Landrieu’s claim that her phone lines were too clogged to answer the many angry calls coming from Tea Party activists.) O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation and a hundred hours of community service; he also paid a fifteen-hundred-dollar fine. In 2011, O’Keefe embarrassed National Public Radio when two accomplices, pretending to represent a radical Muslim group, proposed to donate five million dollars to the network in exchange for favorable programming about Islam. After O’Keefe released videos depicting two NPR employees chatting with the undercover operatives about the need to put Muslim voices on the air, and criticizing the Republican Party as “not just Islamophobic but really xenophobic,” two top NPR officials, including its chief executive, Vivian Schiller, resigned. Many O’Keefe operations, however, have fallen flat, including his repeated efforts to prove that voter-identity fraud is pervasive. “It seems like most of the fraud O’Keefe uncovers he commits himself,” Richard Hasen, a professor of election law at the University of California, Irvine, says. A sting aimed at Hillary Clinton last year was considered especially feeble. Veritas operatives persuaded a staffer at a rally to accept a Canadian citizen’s money in exchange for a Hillary T-shirt—a petty violation of the ban on foreign political contributions. Brian Fallon, the communications director for the Clinton campaign, says, “Project Veritas has been repeatedly caught trying to commit fraud, falsify identities, and break campaign-finance law. It is not surprising, given that their founder has already been convicted for efforts like this.” http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/30/james-okeefe-accidentally-stings-himself Part of the problem with the voter ID laws is that states have restricted them such that only certain forms of ID are acceptable. For example, in North Carolina government issued public assistance cards (with photos) were not permissible as valid forms of ID. It's not a coincidence that those with the public assistance cards were disproportionately minorities.
DTEJD1997 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Taxpayer funds paying for wall construction and resources spent on "voter fraud" in an election he won I don't think there is any question that voter fraud is occurring. The question is HOW MUCH of it is going on. How is that? A). A "bigwig" (Alan Schulkin, Commissioner of Board of Elections NYC) is caught on tape discussing how they bus people into certain districts to vote, he also goes on to discuss other types of fraud and that massive fraud is going on: http://www.dailywire.com/news/9876/watch-nyc-dem-election-official-caught-video-there-amanda-prestigiacomo Why did this not get more attention? Absolutely shocking.... B). Here in Michigan almost half of the voting districts in Detroit did not have their votes recounted as there were problems with the ballot box (being unlocked), the number of people showing up to vote didn't match the number of ballots cast, and on & on. Mind you, not all of this is due to voter fraud. Sometimes there was 1 more ballot cast than recorded, so that is more likely a clerical error than a scam going on....but there certainly were goofy things going on. Simply the fact that there is so much sloppiness & error is a scandal in of itself. C). Many, many states are embroiled in litigation in regards to voter ID. I have to show ID to enter federal buildings, courts, libraries, casinos, etc. How do so many people go through life without any ID? Are poor minority people of such destitution that they can't afford the $5 to get a state ID? How do they drive? They can't figure this out? Just pondering this out loud. Q: Why would you NOT want ID's to be checked when voting? A: In order to enable wide scale voter fraud. D). When I was living in Houston Texas, there were millions of illegal immigrants. Most of them were hard working, decent people. HOWEVER, you can't tell me that some of them aren't voting. Is it 10, 100, 1,000, 10,000, more? Nobody really knows. E). In the last election, there were districts in OH & PA where Mitt Romney (and others) received 0,1,2 votes. These were almost all in minority districts. No doubt, Obama was going to win these districts and win them heavily....but the Republican wouldn't get 1% of the vote? The Green party wouldn't get 1%? Obama got 100% or 99.9%? This wasn't 1 or 2 districts...this went on in many districts. If that happened in more than 1 or 2 districts, I would think alone would be evidence of fraud going on... This is just what I can think of off the top of my head. I am sure that there are other things going on. So yes, there is voter fraud going on, just a question of how much, and how much an effect it has on the outcome. There seems to be an incredible disconnect among those blasting a 'biased media' while at the same time advocating sources like James O'Keefe's Project Veritas to be factual. He's been criticized extensively for deceptive editing and framing by the Columbia Journalism Review and the Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting organization. The signature O’Keefe method is to try to entrap his subjects into breaking the law. In January, 2010, the F.B.I. arrested O’Keefe and three accomplices, two of whom had disguised themselves as telephone repairmen in order to enter the New Orleans office of Mary Landrieu, then a Democratic senator for Louisiana. (O’Keefe says he had hoped to disprove Landrieu’s claim that her phone lines were too clogged to answer the many angry calls coming from Tea Party activists.) O’Keefe was sentenced to three years of probation and a hundred hours of community service; he also paid a fifteen-hundred-dollar fine. In 2011, O’Keefe embarrassed National Public Radio when two accomplices, pretending to represent a radical Muslim group, proposed to donate five million dollars to the network in exchange for favorable programming about Islam. After O’Keefe released videos depicting two NPR employees chatting with the undercover operatives about the need to put Muslim voices on the air, and criticizing the Republican Party as “not just Islamophobic but really xenophobic,” two top NPR officials, including its chief executive, Vivian Schiller, resigned. Many O’Keefe operations, however, have fallen flat, including his repeated efforts to prove that voter-identity fraud is pervasive. “It seems like most of the fraud O’Keefe uncovers he commits himself,” Richard Hasen, a professor of election law at the University of California, Irvine, says. A sting aimed at Hillary Clinton last year was considered especially feeble. Veritas operatives persuaded a staffer at a rally to accept a Canadian citizen’s money in exchange for a Hillary T-shirt—a petty violation of the ban on foreign political contributions. Brian Fallon, the communications director for the Clinton campaign, says, “Project Veritas has been repeatedly caught trying to commit fraud, falsify identities, and break campaign-finance law. It is not surprising, given that their founder has already been convicted for efforts like this.” http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2016/05/30/james-okeefe-accidentally-stings-himself Part of the problem with the voter ID laws is that states have restricted them such that only certain forms of ID are acceptable. For example, in North Carolina government issued public assistance cards (with photos) were not permissible as valid forms of ID. It's not a coincidence that those with the public assistance cards were disproportionately minorities. Maybe Okeefe has engaged in shady things, perhaps that is true. If so, he should be held to higher scrutiny. HOWEVER, if you watch that video of the NYC election commissioner, he let the cat out of the bag. The video is about 4 minutes. There is NO WAY that thing has been taken out of context or misrepresented. The only way is if they somehow tricked him into reading que cards OR were holding a gun to his head. At the end of the video, he discusses that ALL SORTS of fraud is going on with the state issued ID's. It is not limited to voter fraud...
rkbabang Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Many non citizens get assistance. The only ID that is only given to citizens is a US Passport, so why not require one to vote? I've said this before, but democracy would work better (still not perfect, but better) if it allowed only stakeholders in society to vote. Maybe require $100K equity in a property or $100K ownership in a business, plus a US passport. Maybe allow someone to get around the $100k ownership rule if they are willing to pay a $500 voting fee for every election they wish to vote in.
Cardboard Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Following the law or presenting a proper ID to vote is now against human rights if you are listening to the left. You would think that it is common sense in a democracy that one individual with proper citizenship gets the right to one vote. And the way to control that is through voter ID. However, these guys won't hesitate to call for recounts when the vote does not go their way. Cardboard
vox Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Maybe Okeefe has engaged in shady things, perhaps that is true. If so, he should be held to higher scrutiny. HOWEVER, if you watch that video of the NYC election commissioner, he let the cat out of the bag. The video is about 4 minutes. There is NO WAY that thing has been taken out of context or misrepresented. The only way is if they somehow tricked him into reading que cards OR were holding a gun to his head. At the end of the video, he discusses that ALL SORTS of fraud is going on with the state issued ID's. It is not limited to voter fraud... I watched the video, here's where I see camera cuts: 0:08, 0:26, 0:58, 1:13, 1:23, 1:38, 1:57, 2:39, 2:50, 3:01, 3:09, 3:37. They should release the full video in addition to this edited version. That said, most of his comments are opinion or conjecture, not an admission or fact. The context of busing voters seems to very clearly relate to NYS assembly primary candidates. The full fraud quote is "You can see a lot of fraud. Not just voter fraud, all kinds of fraud" and the response was "what a waste of taxpayer money," his comment is not specific to state issued IDs. Given O'Keefe's track record, I see no reason to give him any benefit of the doubt that this conclusively proves vast voter fraud.
vox Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Many non citizens get assistance. The only ID that is only given to citizens is a US Passport, so why not require one to vote? I've said this before, but democracy would work better (still not perfect, but better) if it allowed only stakeholders in society to vote. Maybe require $100K equity in a property or $100K ownership in a business, plus a US passport. Maybe allow someone to get around the $100k ownership rule if they are willing to pay a $500 voting fee for every election they wish to vote in. Not all citizens have passports. My friend did not get one until last year when she was 30 years old. If you want to waive passport fees and give them at birth or age 18, that's fine. Why do you think that social policy should be set exclusively by the rich? Are they just more enlightened than everybody else?
DTEJD1997 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Maybe Okeefe has engaged in shady things, perhaps that is true. If so, he should be held to higher scrutiny. HOWEVER, if you watch that video of the NYC election commissioner, he let the cat out of the bag. The video is about 4 minutes. There is NO WAY that thing has been taken out of context or misrepresented. The only way is if they somehow tricked him into reading que cards OR were holding a gun to his head. At the end of the video, he discusses that ALL SORTS of fraud is going on with the state issued ID's. It is not limited to voter fraud... I watched the video, here's where I see camera cuts: 0:08, 0:26, 0:58, 1:13, 1:23, 1:38, 1:57, 2:39, 2:50, 3:01, 3:09, 3:37. They should release the full video in addition to this edited version. That said, most of his comments are opinion or conjecture, not an admission or fact. The context of busing voters seems to very clearly relate to NYS assembly primary candidates. The full fraud quote is "You can see a lot of fraud. Not just voter fraud, all kinds of fraud" and the response was "what a waste of taxpayer money," his comment is not specific to state issued IDs. Given O'Keefe's track record, I see no reason to give him any benefit of the doubt that this conclusively proves vast voter fraud. I will concede that it might not be VAST voter fraud, BUT that is certainly evidence that things are going on in NYC. If buses of people are being moved around in local elections, might that not be going on in national elections? This coming from one of the guys in charge of voting! What he is saying could be termed "an admission against interest"... If you don't think that video is alarming, I guess we just see things differently.
vox Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Maybe Okeefe has engaged in shady things, perhaps that is true. If so, he should be held to higher scrutiny. HOWEVER, if you watch that video of the NYC election commissioner, he let the cat out of the bag. The video is about 4 minutes. There is NO WAY that thing has been taken out of context or misrepresented. The only way is if they somehow tricked him into reading que cards OR were holding a gun to his head. At the end of the video, he discusses that ALL SORTS of fraud is going on with the state issued ID's. It is not limited to voter fraud... I watched the video, here's where I see camera cuts: 0:08, 0:26, 0:58, 1:13, 1:23, 1:38, 1:57, 2:39, 2:50, 3:01, 3:09, 3:37. They should release the full video in addition to this edited version. That said, most of his comments are opinion or conjecture, not an admission or fact. The context of busing voters seems to very clearly relate to NYS assembly primary candidates. The full fraud quote is "You can see a lot of fraud. Not just voter fraud, all kinds of fraud" and the response was "what a waste of taxpayer money," his comment is not specific to state issued IDs. Given O'Keefe's track record, I see no reason to give him any benefit of the doubt that this conclusively proves vast voter fraud. I will concede that it might not be VAST voter fraud, BUT that is certainly evidence that things are going on in NYC. If buses of people are being moved around in local elections, might that not be going on in national elections? This coming from one of the guys in charge of voting! What he is saying could be termed "an admission against interest"... If you don't think that video is alarming, I guess we just see things differently. It seems pretty clear that the difference between local elections and state/national elections are that a few people can make a difference in the prior, whereas it takes tens or hundreds of thousands to make a difference in the latter. The Trump campaign asked its supporters to be poll watchers on election day, how come none of them were able to spot massive irregularities - like the busing of thousands of people across different polling places?
jeffmori7 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Following the law or presenting a proper ID to vote is now against human rights if you are listening to the left. You would think that it is common sense in a democracy that one individual with proper citizenship gets the right to one vote. And the way to control that is through voter ID. However, these guys won't hesitate to call for recounts when the vote does not go their way. Cardboard From a leftist guy, I totally agree with Cardboard here! An ID should be an absolute requirement to vote, I don't see why there should be a debate about this!
vox Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 From a leftist guy, I totally agree with Cardboard here! An ID should be an absolute requirement to vote, I don't see why there should be a debate about this! I think that this is an idea that is fine in theory, but has to be implemented properly, something that's often not the case. Just as how voter education laws make sense (making sure that people have a clear understanding of who and what they are voting for), but have historically been used to discriminate against certain groups. See: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/06/28/voting_rights_and_the_supreme_court_the_impossible_literacy_test_louisiana.html The voter ID laws crafted by Republican state legislatures disproportionately affect poor and minority voters. https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsin-is-systematically-failing-to-provide-the-photo-ids-required-to-vote-in-november/
jeffmori7 Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 From a leftist guy, I totally agree with Cardboard here! An ID should be an absolute requirement to vote, I don't see why there should be a debate about this! I think that this is an idea that is fine in theory, but has to be implemented properly, something that's often not the case. Just as how voter education laws make sense (making sure that people have a clear understanding of who and what they are voting for), but have historically been used to discriminate against certain groups. See: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_vault/2013/06/28/voting_rights_and_the_supreme_court_the_impossible_literacy_test_louisiana.html The voter ID laws crafted by Republican state legislatures disproportionately affect poor and minority voters. https://www.thenation.com/article/wisconsin-is-systematically-failing-to-provide-the-photo-ids-required-to-vote-in-november/ In Canada, it is not complicated, you show a driver licence or something and they check your name on the list, that's it. Is it bulletproof? No, but is way better than nothing IMO.
rkbabang Posted January 26, 2017 Posted January 26, 2017 Many non citizens get assistance. The only ID that is only given to citizens is a US Passport, so why not require one to vote? I've said this before, but democracy would work better (still not perfect, but better) if it allowed only stakeholders in society to vote. Maybe require $100K equity in a property or $100K ownership in a business, plus a US passport. Maybe allow someone to get around the $100k ownership rule if they are willing to pay a $500 voting fee for every election they wish to vote in. Not all citizens have passports. My friend did not get one until last year when she was 30 years old. If you want to waive passport fees and give them at birth or age 18, that's fine. Why do you think that social policy should be set exclusively by the rich? Are they just more enlightened than everybody else? As Alexis de Tocqueville correctly observed "The American Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money". That would be less likely to happen if the taxpayers voted and the tax receivers didn't. I'd also prohibit anyone currently holding political office or working for any level of government from voting (along with their immediate family members). Also the 100k ownership in a business is not valid if that business gets any subsidies from any level of government or makes any sales to any government department or agency. The moment you take a direct payment of even one cent from government you should lose your right to vote.
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