Sweet

I don't even know what your motives are for posting this, but it's just silliness to me to try and equate this with the Nazis. Not only silly, but rather demeans what fascism really is and all that happened in world war 2.

I don't even know what you are trying to say, but I do know that 1-2 sec edited clips to try and make it look like Trump was making the arguments for shooting people is disingenuous. It's probably even worse. You're deceived. I'm not post deceptive edits devoid of context. I'm not posting out of context BS about what Charlie Kirk and others which was scrapped from some bottom dwelling propogandist. Then make that point without the exaggeration or lies. Fair. This place isn't reddit or Twitter. Let's try and have that debate on the facts alone.

You edited out entire paragraphs. I posted a much fuller version of the Kirk’s quote before you quoted anything at all. It’s my strong suspicion that you saw a snippet of what Kirk said posted somewhere and took it at face value. And yes, I do try hard to be fair. You should to.

It’s intellectually weak. See the same stuff from the lunatic right, they post some edited video to make it seem like the person from left are promoting violence - you find the wider context and they are talking about ‘gutting’ their argument in a debate or something.

What do these clips even mean? It’s multiple 1 - 2 sec edits. You keep posting lots of things divorced from their context. You and dealbreaker posted several things Kirk said, without the framing and context Kirk himself provided, to make it look like he said something he did not. Why?

Would like to wait and see it confirmed by a couple more sources before I start believing that. Funny seeing some people like Bill Maher saying, ‘oh we don’t know his politics’ lol. Come on, stop worrying about sanitising your side. The whole left vs right stuff is generalised bs anyway, it’s a sloppy and lazy characterisation. Call it what it is, extremism. Those extremists types, ‘left or right’, have much more important things in common with each other than they do to centrist ‘left and right’ - like I’d kill you disagreeing with me. And the permanently hyper political people are a major problem. Bill Maher again, the guy has nothing in his life other than politics, it’s his religion. Ben Shapiro types as well, although at least Ben actually has other things going on (Jewish, family etc) - it’s not his entire shtick unlike Maher.

Thanks for clarifying. I don’t know much about that period. I was referring to late 80s, 90s and early 00s.

Kirk profited from division, insofar as he went to campuses to talk about divisive issues and was able to monetise that. People who know even less about the guy than I do are saying all sorts of wild shit about him - like he supported ‘stoning gays’. I don’t think he was went anywhere trying to wind people up or annoy them, he seemed kind to most he encountered. You get all those ‘owned’ and ‘destroyed’ videos, but most of its editing for clicks many not even produced by him. For those who think otherwise go watch him with Newsom or Maher. This is an extremely cynical (and wrong) take. Kirk set up turning point USA which a non-profit conservative movement that goes to university campuses. He became famous because he was an effective debater and speaker and from that drew an audience and following that he was able to monetise. He was only 31, he might very well have ran for office later in life. And even if he didn’t, he was involved in politics and started out with no guarantee of ever making money from it. So why the profiteering stuff? Greg said he didn’t have a real job. Really? He started and ran his own organisation from when he was young. How is running your own organisation not a job?

Yep. I think much of the talk about people profiting and causing division is true however it’s also a bit cheap. It’s not just influencers causing division, there has been a real drift in shared beliefs / values.

I don’t know what Parsad’s talking about. Dems and GOP had their disagreements 25 years ago, gun-control, abortion, climate, healthcare, and they still disagree on these. Plus much of the political debate was around government size and taxes etc. However, 25 years ago there was broad agreement on major cultural issues that everyone took for granted. Like securing the border, controlling illegal immigration, tough on crime and pro-police, against racism and discrimination, equality rather than equity, and there was none of the gender nonsense. Both sides fight on these issues now. And a simple question to think about. Which side of the aisle moved on these issues?

In way, yeh it is. We’ve all been 22, you’re idealistic, prone to doing stupid shit.

Probably more believe this stuff than we realise. As someone else said, a large part of it is social media which is platforming these people and views. Hasan Piker - I hate I know who that is - has called for violence many times now. Another - ‘Destiny’ - has done the same. They have large audiences. About the 22 year old assassin. There is a clip of him walking to the University. He stops for a second, like he’s thinking, and then turns and walks back as if he decides not to go through with the shooting. Then he slows and turns around walking again towards the campus. It was a recorded video but my dumb ass was still willing him to just go home.

I get it, I can’t be bothered either. I’d say one thing, you say fallacies but before posting I went to the reports, the survey of 10,000 Muslims, dug up the figures for the UK on economic activity, numbers in jails, numbers of terrorist cases by ideology. They’re not fallacies. We have a difference of opinion about immigration into the UK, I’d like to think as a native, and someone ethnically from these island that my opinion is more important than those who don’t live here (we can disagree on that too). But the facts are the facts. Regarding Trump, I agree. He’s a big boy, he talks shit, so he has to be able to take it, but he Obama was roasting a citizen.

I have no idea what you mean dealraker

Tyler Robinson, 22, is identified as the man who killed the Kirk. He confessed to his father who turned him. Which adds another layer of tragedy, the father (Matt Robinson) who turned his son in could very well be handing his son over to die by capital punishment. Just awful, I can't imagine being a father and doing that, what a man. His son, the selfish little bastard, has ruined two families. https://nypost.com/2025/09/12/us-news/we-have-him-trump-says-suspect-in-custody-for-charlie-kirk-assassination/

That's your framing of it. I posted the fuller quote whereas you took a snippet. He said there are costs with guns, which he felt were 'worth it', and he compared it with deaths from driving and that we obviously decide driving cars because we think it is worth it. He didn't justify in the way you're framing it - he was saying this is the unfortunate cost. And dealraker, you own a firearm, so obviously there is a part of you that agrees with. Regarding people's death. Are you talking about Osama Bin Laden? That's a very obvious exception which I hope doesn't need unpacking. Unless the person is actively killing other people (for example), how can anyone be happy at a person being murdered? Anyone doing that is just evil to me.

I'll give you correlation for sure, but I'm just noting that coroner found otherwise. Would he be alive if he wasn't pepper sprayed - who knows? I'm sure it provides no comfort for his loved ones in any case.

All of this. Well said.

$1,500 per hear of population is lot!

No problem John. Recently I have tuned out a lot of US stuff and this thread, although I felt something strong in the pit of my stomach when Kirk was murdered that I can't explain - killed in front his wife and kids and leaving two very young children with no father. Truly evil. Yeh that's moved me and I know already it's hardened my attitudes especially seeing the many celebrations. Although some bright spots too, some good people on the left calling it out. On Obama mocking Trump, it was reported at the time that Trump was considering running for president, but he was undecided. Some have speculated that Obama's joking and humiliating (whatever your view is) made up his mind and he decided to run. Basically he couldn't let Obama have the last laugh.

I didn't say that though. I said there was a live stream all day from TMZ HQ and staffers could be heard cheering when Charlie Kirk’s death was announced. TMZ said they were laughing about something else, which doesn’t seem believable if you watch the video. I have to disagree. It takes two to tango but the coddling, excuse making, the ‘time to rise’ we're oppressed stuff, is dominated by the left in the US and that's even including the Jan 6 activities by the right. Nobody is saying that there aren't good people or that they all believe in the most extreme interpretation. There are rarely any issues when the number of people following Islam is small. When the numbers get larger, as in the UK where we have millions, you do get pockets of extreme behaviour, and that has a pull on the rest of the community. Trevor Philips, a black guy, politically left and aligned with Labour, and former head of the equality commission here in the UK, produced a report and a survey of the attitudes of Muslims. His conclusion was that many held views which run contrary to the laws of the country, and that they had no intention of adopting our values or integrating into our society. The result? - he was was accused of Islamophobia and removed from the Labour Party for what many regard as simply reporting what is self evidently true. In the UK there was a very recent attempt to set up a muslim political party (which thankfully was rejected by the electoral commission as illegal). The vast majority of the terrorism work of MI5 is Islamic terrorism. Muslims predominantly vote as a block - is this ever good for a society? They are more likely to get benefits and social housing, they are less likely to be economically active, and three times more likely to go jail. And remember, countries in Europe are formed predominantly by ethnic groups with shared values, culture, language etc. The messy European borders is a reflection of that ethnicity not geography. Large numbers of immigrants of any sort, but particular those with divergent ideals, behaviours and social norms, are fragmenting society and balkanising European politics. There are loads of muslim countries which follow Islam laws, they should go there. I certainly would never migrant to an Islamic country and expect society to just welcome me and my beliefs with open arms. I never said it was, I only replied because LC is being dishonest. Trump was not mocking a person’s disability, that’s how he mocks many people. Don't the facts matters? Even then, for the most part Trump is joking about it. He even said of the disabled person that he was a ‘nice guy’. When it comes to mocking, Obama roasted Trump for 5 mins at the correspondence dinner in 2011, and at that time Trump wasn't even in politics:

That’s what the coroner said and the USCP accepted the findings, LC. There no splitting of hairs with this. You’re just making stuff up.

Bro - nobody was charged for the pipe bombs so how could Trump pardon that person? The USCP admitted Sicknick died of natural causes in the line of duty: “That day, US. Capitol Police released a statement that read: “The USCP accepts the findings from the District of Columbia’s Office of the Chief Medical Examiner that Officer Brian Sicknick died of natural causes. This does not change the fact Officer Sicknick died in the line of duty, courageously defending Congress and the Capitol.” Do you just deceive all the fucking time?

Trump didn’t pardon everyone, some were commuted, and a dude who plotted to kill an officer was not covered in the pardon. None of those pardoned killed anyone. The ‘leading to multiple deaths’ is a sleight of hand. One person died directly as a result of actions taken on the day - Ashli Babbitt - a protestor / rioter who was shot by police in the shoulder and died of her injuries. The rests of the deaths were either natural causes, suicide and a drug overdose. Source: https://www.factcheck.org/2021/11/how-many-died-as-a-result-of-capitol-riot/ Regarding Kirk, I’ll say it again. He was rebuting a point made by ‘Ms Rachel’. Christians, believe the New Testament carries the most weight. Kirk has openly said that Jesus carried out God’s law perfectly, and Jesus said ‘let he who is without sin cast the first stone’. Kirk didn’t say what you claimed, and with some basic research about other things he said I feel confident that you can’t infer that either. So threes points you raised, and every one of them is deceptive in one way or another.

Trump has said and done lots of wild shit, but you managed to pick one which perfectly portrays the propaganda the media regularly pushed during his first term election campaign. Likewise you said that Kirk ‘believed that gay people should be stoned to death’ and then posted a video which didn’t even show that.