Sweet

I agree, the biggest issue isn’t even economical, it’s just another talking point. However I disagree agree with your generalisation that those who argue on cultural grounds are racist. There are plenty who racist and want less immigration - scroll twitter, it’s obvious - but there are many more who want to preserve their cultural and ethnic identity with no animosity towards others just because they different race. And in a world were we believe in democracy, and that the country belongs to its people, there shouldn’t be an issue with them wanting to preserve what makes them unique, and brings them together as a people. That is how nations form and stay together.

I agree with most of that, but again, not really referring to economics.

I’m not even referring to economics. Indians are some of the hardest working for sure.

Yeh, many countries didn’t recommend it either. In the UK it was only recommended for children under 4 who were a ‘clinical risk group’.

Yes, which is the point I made.

Liberals think you can pick up a person from one part of the world, move them to another part of the world, drop them in, and all will be fine. Running up to Brexit, the argument was the immigration was a net economic benefit to the UK. Perhaps it was then. However there were also reasons to believe that wasn’t the full story, for example, parts of UK cities would have certain immigrants hanging around during the week clearly doing nothing. It’s gotten much worse since Brexit too. Until recently we couldn’t even examine the ethnic background and immigration status of the people in UK as it relates to crime, employment, welfare. Recent work has started to give different answers on whether immigration is economically beneficial. At best the situation is now is complicated. What’s certain is the mantra of immigration is always good has been shattered. Worse are the non-economic effects though, we are finding that many immigrants are over represented in crime and many are hostile to our country and values. All of which is to say trust your eyes, the data and research lags - always - and what’s acceptable to talk about shifts slowly at first and then fast. Yet don’t tar everyone with the same brush as some immigrants definitely do contribute, and do integrate.

It’s different for each country for sure. Which is why we can’t throw a blanket over immigration bad or immigration is good. It’s way more complex than that. I don’t know the economics of it in America, but I bet it’s like anywhere else. Certain types of immigration are economically good, others types are bad. There is also the social dimension too. Some countries are basically ethnic states and immigration might causes issues with integration and social cohesion, whereas other countries are not and immigration might be more easily absorbed.

That’s probably the case everywhere. The problem for Europe is that much of the immigration is low skilled mass immigration from the Middle East and Africa. In the UK, and elsewhere, it shows that immigration can be a net economic positive or a net economic drain but it very much depends on the type of immigration. More and more work is done in this in Europe now. They are breaking down crime by immigrant ethnicity and there are large differences which often persist in second and third generations.

I think you missed some posts. Marco mention an article about the costs of French immigration. In reply to Marco I mentioned the Danish study:

No it doesn’t. It’s two different countries, two different sets of immigrants, two different methods of analysis. Why would you think it’s comparable? The immigration profile of the US and Europe are very different. Danish immigration is a decent proxy for European immigration but probably not a good one for America. The Danish study also looked at the mix of immigrants with some contributing significantly more than others.

How can a US government report on US immigration disagree with a Danish study of Danish immigration?

Not disputing that. Disputing that this idea that they can't muddle through, or birth rates cannot go back up. It's up to them to decide what they want, if they want to keep a homogenous Japanese people and culture that's their right.

I don’t get it either. The economics is also secondary in my view. European and Asian countries are predominantly and historically ethnic states. An ethnic European born and raised in Japan might have Japanese citizenship, but they’ll never be Japanese which is must more than a certificate from government. I doubt that. They will have more kids again one day. If I were China and Japan I wouldn’t take immigrants.

That was factored into the Danish study. It looked at age and even descendants.

Study in Denmark (I think) look at immigration into the country and nearly every immigrant was a net drain over the lifetime.

There are some vaccines that I wouldn't bother getting the kids, but the trouble is they come as a all in one shot with something like 6. Overall though I've never had an issue with any of the kids getting them before. Noted, have used Mayo before quite a bit. Will check out what they are saying on the matter. Yeh that's a good point about mass hysteria. It's doubly effective when its your kids. You see all sorts of risks and dangers and want to do you best to avoid them with your kids, no matter how unlikely.

Yeh, the guy is a lunatic. It’s not him directly getting to me, it’s my wife lol. I’m going to sit her down with ChatGPT tomorrow and tell her to ask it questions about kids vaccinated vs unvaccinated trials and what they found. I also didn’t know that about him, druggie and brain worm. Such a wild man. edit - heroine, had no idea. Can see how he slipped into that though when his father being killed when he was young. Tough start in life.

It’s not semantics. I never said Biden had the ‘GOAL of encouraging illegal immigration’. (Why did you leave out the word goal - yet another misdirection.) I said his policies incentivised illegal immigration, I said his policies were illegal immigration friendly, but I never said it was his goal to encourage illegal immigration. Completely different things. If you can’t see that, not my problem. Yep. Unreasonable. Sorry to say, but just going to add LC to my ignore list, which I hate doing. I just can’t stand the deliberate dishonesty anymore.

I agree with you. My wife, usually sensible, and from a science background herself, has got the jitters. Worse it’s affecting me too. When you have kids you can’t think straight at times. RFK talks rubbish but it’s got a hold on people. She had relatives at the house today, and they were saying that they have noticed an effect from vaccines. This was a closed discussion years ago and he’s opened it up.

I never said Biden’s ‘goal was to encourage illegal immigration’. I don’t think I’ve ever met someone consistently as disingenuous as you and I’ve argued a lot online (sadly). I mean this seriously, but are you doing it on purpose, or is it unintentional? If I’m wording something poorly I’ll try and correct it.

Question for those with kids. What are you views on the vaccine stuff coming from RFK and the links with autism. I’ve always thought it was a pile of nonsense. There are some serious people, some who work in health care, expressing some support for RFK views which I find surprising. Have any of you noticed a change in your own children pre- and post-vaccine? Edit - I don’t think I’ve noticed anything with mine, but the wife is hesitating about the next batch now.

The president with the worst border and illegal immigration record in modern US history. What do you want to talk about? His record number of migrants removed or turned away. Hilarious. And yes I posted snopes, I try to post source that aren’t right leaning. Whereas you post buzzfeed and npr lol.

Well LC, it’s obvious to everyone apart from you apparently, that if you run on an illegal immigration friendly platform, and you incentivise them by saying we will provide you a pathway to citizenship, you are going to get record numbers of illegal immigrants looking in. Biden may have turned away more than Trump, but that’s a sign of a colossal failure of immigration policy. Another sleight of hand from you. And yes, I doubt a wall will do much for those desperate to get in, but together with tough actions it will stop illegals before their journey to the border even begins.

I mean yeh, when you run on reversing Trump’s policies, stopping the wall, when you call them undocumented rather than illegals, and when you promise a pathway to citizenship for those undocumented… no shit your going to have millions of people looking in. Even if you decide mid way through your term that you f’d up the damage has been done. And a large part of this is perception, Joe was seen as soft, Trump isn’t. Trump talk is big for a reason immigration, he’s deliberately trying to be big, bold, brash to send a very clear message.

”didn't Trump build that wall in his first term? Why didn't it solve the problem?” Alright, you now accept the wall wasn’t fully built, but you know for sure it wouldn’t have been successful if it had of been. Got it. Ha. This article dates to early 2024. By that time there had been over 7 million border encounters, and if you read on down the Biden admin was releasing about half into the US. By the end of the admin there were 10 million encounters at the border and if half were released that would be about 5 million people. So yeh, let’s focus on the 25,000 part of the failure whilst ignoring the elephant. https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/million-migrants-border-biden/ Genuinely don’t think many of you know what’s good for America to know what is bad.