Lebron hits 50k at 40

[bargainman]

Can't believe he's still playing much less at this level.

 

Apparently he's putting up better stats since hitting 40 than his last MVP season.  Crazy.

 

Talk about investing in your body.

[Parsad]

He's a freak of nature.  Nobody will ever touch that record.  To play that long and that consistently without missing too many games...just not possible. 

 

And he looks like he could play till he hits 60,000 points!  Cheers!

[dealraker]

6 hours ago, Parsad said:

He's a freak of nature.  Nobody will ever touch that record.  To play that long and that consistently without missing too many games...just not possible. 

 

And he looks like he could play till he hits 60,000 points!  Cheers!

And with Luca something seems to be re-igniting within him which may extend his interest in continuing.  

[flesh]

5 hours ago, dealraker said:

And with Luca something seems to be re-igniting within him which may extend his interest in continuing.  

Yes, and Luca will burn calories so bron doesn’t have to until it counts. They are maybe one piece away from being right there. 
 

over at golden state we have jimmy buckets doing the same for steph now. Although he sometimes seems to barely try on offense, let’s see if we get playoff jimmy this year. Kuminga back soon. 

[Parsad]

9 hours ago, dealraker said:

And with Luca something seems to be re-igniting within him which may extend his interest in continuing.  

 

Watching the Lakers is fun again...not because they are winning, but because they have a run and gun offence again, while still playing excellent defence.  Similar to the best days when Magic was leading the offence.  LeBron is now free to attack and he's having fun.  

 

Same with Golden State...Butler's defence and added offence takes a bit of pressure off of Steph.  They still need Kuminga back...missing offensive points that would help win some of these games they are losing unlike the Lakers.  

 

The Luka trade was probably one of the dumbest trades in NBA history!  Now Kyrie is out for the season...AD on the sideline...Dallas' GM should be fired!  Cheers!

[Gregmal]

As a huge lifelong sports fan, when you see greatness, you need to just soak it in like you'd observe a fine piece of art or a beautiful creature in the wild. Grew up with Marty Brodeur playing 70+ games a year and fluidly playing the role of a 3rd defenseman not fully appreciating it. Saw but still didn't full appreciate the sheer dominance of Barry Bonds getting intentionally walked 1-2 times a game and either homering or hitting it to the warning track on the 3-4 borderline hittable pitches he'd see a game. Tiger Woods was the first guy I was really able to appreciate. Made a sport where every event had a different top 10 a party of 1. LeBron Ive seen since his high school games were played on ESPN and he's done it so smoothly and when you look at the body of work, really transformed the game. Enjoy it while it's still there. 

[Castanza]

Yup LeBron is a special talent that is aging like a fine wine. Been watching the guy since I started playing ball in elementary school. It’s even more impressive when you look at how he’s adapted to the shift in play style since he entered the league. 

[Rainier]

It will be interesting to see what they do in the playoffs. I don’t like to root for the Lakers, but this situation is something really unusual. I hope LeBron can hold up in the playoffs and they can get a lot out of Austin Reeves. Would be nice to see a western conference second round of Lakers, Warriors, Nuggets, Thunder.
 

Also, the combo of LeBron and Luka is in the very upper stratosphere in terms of highest basketball IQ superstar duos of all time. Will be fascinating to see what they’re able to do in seven game series’ when strategy and endurance really take over. 

 

For the last 50ish years I would rank star-level duos on basketball IQ as the following (IQ only, I’m not saying most talented duo - although #1 would be the same, also excluding short stints like Gary Payton playing with Kobe).

 

1. Jordan / Pippen 

 

2. Bird / McHale

 

3. LeBron / Luka (and this is close - they probably are #2, but I’m reticent because of recency bias and short tenure together)

 

4. Duncan / Ginobili

 

5. Magic / Kareem

 

6. Steph / Draymond

 

7. Rondo / Garnett

 

8. Kobe / Gasol

 

I’m probably forgetting some obvious combo. 
 

It’s painful to leave guys like Jokic, Chris Paul, Stockton, Payton, Nash, etc off that list. But it’s rare that you have two star-level players who are that micro focused on offensive and/or defensive strategy on the same team. Probably a lot of reasons for that now that I think about it. Essentially all of those duos have a clear spotlight guy and a clear dirty work or subordinate guy, even if they’re both equally intelligent strategically. Corporate analogy I guess fits - that it’s rare to have two all-time great CEO caliber executives in one company (one would typically leave to be the man somewhere else). Buffett / Munger (and maybe Ajit too) being an obvious exception. 
 

[Parsad]

11 hours ago, Rainier said:

It will be interesting to see what they do in the playoffs. I don’t like to root for the Lakers, but this situation is something really unusual. I hope LeBron can hold up in the playoffs and they can get a lot out of Austin Reeves. Would be nice to see a western conference second round of Lakers, Warriors, Nuggets, Thunder.
 

Also, the combo of LeBron and Luka is in the very upper stratosphere in terms of highest basketball IQ superstar duos of all time. Will be fascinating to see what they’re able to do in seven game series’ when strategy and endurance really take over. 

 

For the last 50ish years I would rank star-level duos on basketball IQ as the following (IQ only, I’m not saying most talented duo - although #1 would be the same, also excluding short stints like Gary Payton playing with Kobe).

 

1. Jordan / Pippen 

 

2. Bird / McHale

 

3. LeBron / Luka (and this is close - they probably are #2, but I’m reticent because of recency bias and short tenure together)

 

4. Duncan / Ginobili

 

5. Magic / Kareem

 

6. Steph / Draymond

 

7. Rondo / Garnett

 

8. Kobe / Gasol

 

I’m probably forgetting some obvious combo. 
 

It’s painful to leave guys like Jokic, Chris Paul, Stockton, Payton, Nash, etc off that list. But it’s rare that you have two star-level players who are that micro focused on offensive and/or defensive strategy on the same team. Probably a lot of reasons for that now that I think about it. Essentially all of those duos have a clear spotlight guy and a clear dirty work or subordinate guy, even if they’re both equally intelligent strategically. Corporate analogy I guess fits - that it’s rare to have two all-time great CEO caliber executives in one company (one would typically leave to be the man somewhere else). Buffett / Munger (and maybe Ajit too) being an obvious exception. 
 

 

Good list.  Also have to include the Bill Russell Celtics on that list...not a duo but the full starting five was brilliant!  I think the Stockton/Malone combo belongs on that list.  They could do the pick and roll like no other duo in history.  Also maybe Kobe/Shaq...even with all of the fighting, they knew they were better together than not.  Jokic and Nash...they are/were really singular talents on their primary teams driving the offense...they didn't really have a dominant partner other than when Nash was in Dallas and had Nowitzki.  Gary Payton would be on that list if Shawn Kemp had avoided drugs.  Ahh...Chris Paul...probably would have gotten more respect if he didn't flop like a European soccer player!    Cheers!

[dealraker]

31 minutes ago, Parsad said:

 

Good list.  Also have to include the Bill Russell Celtics on that list...not a duo but the full starting five was brilliant!  I think the Stockton/Malone combo belongs on that list.  They could do the pick and roll like no other duo in history.  Also maybe Kobe/Shaq...even with all of the fighting, they knew they were better together than not.  Jokic and Nash...they are/were really singular talents on their primary teams driving the offense...they didn't really have a dominant partner other than when Nash was in Dallas and had Nowitzki.  Gary Payton would be on that list if Shawn Kemp had avoided drugs.  Ahh...Chris Paul...probably would have gotten more respect if he didn't flop like a European soccer player!    Cheers!

Got to include Bill Russell.  In my early years I watched Bill and Wilt go at it.  What a privilege that was to experience that.  Some say there was little competition back then, they are silly given the Walt Belamy's athleticism and Nate Thrumond's all around offensive and defensive skills.  Huge guys with skills as good as any today.

Edited Thursday at 11:08 AM by dealraker

[Williams406]

Good list, but agree Stockton and Malone belong on the list for sure. Coming down the floor, opposing teams knew 10% chance Hornacek or Stockton take a perimeter shot, 90% chance of pick and roll. Unstoppable. Career stats for Malone and Stockton worth looking at--I think both players make short list of all-time greats for their positions. Not even a Jazz fan.

[Castanza]

Can’t put LeBron and Luka on the list yet…they haven’t even played a full season together. I like LeBron, but his legacy is not on the Duo list. Maybe the trio list, but even then it’s tough. He’s a one man show. Also Malone and Stockton didn’t win any finals. Wins matter otherwise the list is just subjective. 

Duo Finals

Jordan/Pippen 6/6 

Russell/Cousy 6/6

Magic/Kareem 5/8 

Curry/Thompson 4/6

Kobe/Shaq 3/4 

Bird/McHale 3/3

Duncan/Robinson 2/2

 

Trio Finals

Jordan/Pippen/Rodman 6/6

Duncan/Parker/Ginobili 4/4

Curry/Thompson/Green 4/6

LeBron/Wade/Bosh 2/4 

 

 

 

[Williams406]

"Wins matter otherwise the list is just subjective." Sure, but from 1980 to 1998, only three teams not named the Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, or Pistons won championships. Tough era to be a high IQ duo on other teams.

[Rainier]

Yeah - I don’t disagree with any of those inclusions in terms of talent.
 

My only argument would be that I don’t think Malone or Shaq or Kemp were known for their basketball IQ / scheming / strategy / play calling / mind games / time management / ref manipulation etc. Effectively on-court coaching. Those guys (Shaq, Kemp, Malone, etc) were more just generational physical talents whose bodies and coordination were elite among the elite. In a lot of ways, those types of players were kind of known for frustrating their floor generals because of mental lapses (especially Kemp). Good example - what would Vince Carter’s career have been like if he’d had the devotion to studying / managing the game like other elitely talented 2/3 swing players like Jordan or Kobe or LeBron? 

 

Luka and LeBron (especially LeBron) are obviously physically gifted. But they’re in rarified air in terms of all-time basketball IQ. The only other players on the league on their level are Jokic, decrepit Chris Paul, and Draymond.
 

Of course basketball IQ is obviously the most subjective thing ever and can’t be quantified at all. More of a know it when you see it trait I guess.  Bird, Jokic, Chris Paul, Stockton, Payton being prime examples. Physically not impressive and may not even score much in a game, but routinely control the entire flow of the game by themselves.
 

Russell  / Cousy / Havlicek is the biggest omission. But I was initially keeping it to the last 50ish years because I just don’t have any experience watching those guys or Jerry West or Oscar. I do think they get short shrift today though. Russell, Havlicek, West should probably be in everyone’s top 10-25 list. Especially when you hear about all of the off the court hardships guys like Russell and Jerry West had to deal with. 

Edited Thursday at 02:45 PM by Rainier

[Castanza]

1 hour ago, Rainier said:

Luka and LeBron (especially LeBron) are obviously physically gifted. But they’re in rarified air in terms of all-time basketball IQ. The only other players on the league on their level are Jokic, decrepit Chris Paul, and Draymond.

Luka hasn’t been in the league long enough to put him in any all time great list yet imo. Shaq absolutely was a very high IQ player. Basketball IQ is a tough thing to judge because it’s specific to role, position, and offense vs defense.

 

 

[Castanza]

1 hour ago, Williams406 said:

"Wins matter otherwise the list is just subjective." Sure, but from 1980 to 1998, only three teams not named the Celtics, Lakers, Bulls, or Pistons won championships. Tough era to be a high IQ duo on other teams.

Doesn’t that prove the point though? The best prevail

[Rainier]

2 minutes ago, Castanza said:

Luka hasn’t been in the league long enough to put him in any all time great list yet imo. Shaq absolutely was a very high IQ player. Basketball IQ is a tough thing to judge because it’s specific to role, position, and offense vs defense.

 

 

You might be right about timing with Luka.
 

To play devils advocate though, I would encourage any Luka doubters to look at his offensive stats to date for the same period of the careers of Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt or any of the all time greats offensively. He’s on track to have offensive peers of only Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Kareem.  And this is for someone who is average or below average in terms of physical traits (compared to other nba players generally and especially compared to other phenoms like KD, Garnett, LeBron, Vince Carter, etc). Hyper competitive (even among nba standards) and plays better in playoffs.  Plus already has two WCF appearances and a Finals appearance on not the best teams. You’re right that it’s early, but it’s a scorching start.
 

We will have to agree to disagree on Shaq. I’m also the opposite of a Shaq fan, so I might be biased. 

[Castanza]

38 minutes ago, Rainier said:

You might be right about timing with Luka.
 

To play devils advocate though, I would encourage any Luka doubters to look at his offensive stats to date for the same period of the careers of Jordan, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt or any of the all time greats offensively. He’s on track to have offensive peers of only Jordan, LeBron, Wilt, Kareem.  And this is for someone who is average or below average in terms of physical traits (compared to other nba players generally and especially compared to other phenoms like KD, Garnett, LeBron, Vince Carter, etc). Hyper competitive (even among nba standards) and plays better in playoffs.  Plus already has two WCF appearances and a Finals appearance on not the best teams. You’re right that it’s early, but it’s a scorching start.
 

We will have to agree to disagree on Shaq. I’m also the opposite of a Shaq fan, so I might be biased. 

 

Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt were winning Defensive player of the year alongside those offensive stats  Luka doesn't even know what defense is lol 

 

Shaq is one of the most dominant big men of all time. You don't get that on just physical ability. https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-legends-basketball-news-exclusive-shaquille-oneals-size-cast-aside-by-nba-legend-for-underrated-quality-that-led-to-success/

 

Shaq is a good dude too lol what's not to like?!

[Malmqky]

1 minute ago, Castanza said:

 

Jordan, Kareem, and Wilt were winning Defensive player of the year alongside those offensive stats  Luka doesn't even know what defense is lol 

 

Shaq is one of the most dominant big men of all time. You don't get that on just physical ability. https://www.essentiallysports.com/nba-legends-basketball-news-exclusive-shaquille-oneals-size-cast-aside-by-nba-legend-for-underrated-quality-that-led-to-success/

 

Shaq is a good dude too lol what's not to like?!

 

Luka isn't that bad of a defender.

 

High IQ, gets his hands on a lot of passes, puts in an acceptable amount of effort. Sure his lateral agility sucks and he's not a plus defender, but he's not even the worse defender on his team.

 

Remember he was carrying the entire offensive load and playing on one leg half the time with the Mavs.

 

 

[Castanza]

16 minutes ago, Malmqky said:

 

Luka isn't that bad of a defender.

 

High IQ, gets his hands on a lot of passes, puts in an acceptable amount of effort. Sure his lateral agility sucks and he's not a plus defender, but he's not even the worse defender on his team.

 

Remember he was carrying the entire offensive load and playing on one leg half the time with the Mavs.

 

 

“Not that bad” matters when throwing names in the mix for top talent all time….just my two cents.
 

People are already comparing him to Jordan in the playoffs for scoring LOL. Dude has 41 games in the playoffs avg enraging 31.3pts vs Jordan 33.4 over 179 and LeBron 28.4 over 287.

 

Also worth noting that Jordan played in a low scoring era. Don’t get me wrong I like Luka a lot and enjoy watching him play. But longevity is part of greatness imo. He’s young and already had a few injuries and struggles with weight a bit. Hopefully as he matures he continues to develop. He absolutely could be an all time great. 
 

 

[Malmqky]

7 minutes ago, Castanza said:

“Not that bad” matters when throwing names in the mix for top talent all time….just my two cents.
 

People are already comparing him to Jordan in the playoffs for scoring LOL. Dude has 41 games in the playoffs avg enraging 31.3pts vs Jordan 33.4 over 179 and LeBron 28.4 over 287.

 

Also worth noting that Jordan played in a low scoring era. Don’t get me wrong I like Luka a lot and enjoy watching him play. But longevity is part of greatness imo. He’s young and already had a few injuries and struggles with weight a bit. Hopefully as he matures he continues to develop. He absolutely could be an all time great. 
 

 

 

That's a fair point.

 

I just like Luka and think he's a better defender than the traffic cone people pretend he is. But yeah, agreed. When comparing to all time greats, "not that bad" does matter - even if you think he's on par with Jordan or Lebron offense wise, defense wise it's not close.

Edited Thursday at 05:57 PM by Malmqky

[xboojum]

From a comment on the sports blog Defector:

 

* JJ Redick is in college: LeBron 27/7/7 
* JJ Redick, NBA rookie: LeBron 27/7/6 
* JJ Redick, NBA starter: LeBron 27/7/6 
* JJ Redick, 15 year vet, LeBron 25/8/8 
* JJ Redick analyst/podcaster: LeBron 26/8/7 
* JJ Redick is LeBron's coach: LeBron 25/9/8

 

Just a machine.

Edited Thursday at 06:36 PM by xboojum

[Rainier]

Yeah, Luka isn’t a defensive force. That’s his one downside.

 

Disagree hard regarding Shaq. From a physical gifts standpoint he was a unicorn. But he was the definition of a diva, lazy, poor leadership, etc.

 

He refused to play in a small market, despite the fact that he 1) had another star and 2) the team was well managed and built a very good contender around him.

 

Poor teammate with Kobe. They won and they both had dominant personalities, but when you read stuff about how that relationship early on…it doesn’t reflect well at all on Shaq. I’m not one of these people that put Kobe on a pedestal, but Shaq didn’t cover himself in glory regarding the way he handled his LA years. He realized how badly he screwed up the Kobe situation and made a huge PR effort when he went to Miami to support Wade. 
 

He admits that he was lazy and didn’t work hard. Refused to practice. Didn’t want to strategize. This isn’t speculation. This is all well documented by himself on TNT and his podcast. A big part of his identity early in his career was that he wanted to be considered the GOAT. Not in the way that all players probably want that, but he was kind of in the same boat as LeBron of doing everything he could in a calculated way to position himself as a challenger to Jordan’s status (he’s talked a lot about this and how much this colored his decisions). But unlike LeBron, he was lazy. He didn’t want to practice or condition himself or manage his weight or make teammates better or really anything other than that which came naturally to him (bully people in the paint). 

 

Let himself get super fat. This is a big part of his legacy for me. Completely ridiculous how fat he was. And was sensitive about being called out on it. Created a huge ordeal with Walton (who was shaq’s biggest supporter and who was genuinely concerned about shaq’s feet) and created bad blood over it for years. 
 

He also refused to practice free throw shooting despite the fact that teams exploited it.

 

Since being on TNT he’s sort of exposed himself as being extremely petty and a bad teammate and employee. It’s come out gradually over the years. As an example, he has talked about how the role players on teams are not important. Even Jordan who was as psycho as they come has mostly sung the praises of his role players in retirement. Recently he said that Jimmy Butler was doing the right thing by not living up to his contract and mailing it in every game and faking injuries because of pride/pettiness.

It’s just a legacy of laziness.

 

Was he dominant, yes. Is he a top 75 player all time, yes. Is he a superstar at self-promotion / marketing, yes. 

 

Should he be mentioned in the same vein as Jordan, LeBron, Bird, Duncan, Russell, Magic, West, Hakeem, Kobe, Walton, Step, etc….absolutely not.

 

In my opinion, his peers are people like Wilt and Karl Malone. Still good, but somewhat flaky, company.

 

Again, I admit I’m biased.

Edited Thursday at 07:29 PM by Rainier

[Castanza]

You can't criticize Shaq for being "lazy" and then sing praises to Luka lol 

 

Your bias is definitely showing here....Most people have Shaq top 10 all time....unquestionably top 25. It's not even disputable. 

[Rainier]

I just mentioned 75 because the league did a top 75 list recently.
 

I did this quick from my own memory / opinion. The lower on the list the less conviction I have about the order (except for Shaq haha!). Obviously subjective. Probably missing people.  But I’ve got him I think at 29 on this list. With his natural talent, he should have been in the top 10, easily. The only others on this list who underachieved given their natural talent and size and longevity/health are Wilt, Robinson, Karl Malone, Chris Webber, Carmelo, maybe Dominique, maybe Giannis (tbd). Almost  everybody else got just about everything they could out of their talent and brains. Not the Big Diesel though. 
 

Jordan

LeBron

Kareem

Russell

Bird

Duncan 

West

Magic

Hakeem

Steph

Robertson

Kobe

KD

Havlicek

Wilt

Baylor

Dr. J

Pippen

Jokic (probably ends up top 10)

Barkley

Walton

Dirk

Garnett

Isiah Thomas

Giannis

Wade

Kawhi

Worthy

Shaq

Moses Malone

Nash

Stockton

Frazier 

Robinson

Karl Malone

Unseld

King

Jkidd

Iverson

Westbrook

Harden

Miller

Payton

Rodman

T-Mac

Ginobili

Dominique

Gervin

Drexler

CP3

Carmelo

Gasol

Hill

KJ

Webber

Mullin

 

Edited Thursday at 08:35 PM by Rainier