Battery Technologies

[Saluki]

Anyone know of a good book or other resource for learning about batteries?  I'm looking at a company (pre-revenue) that is publicly traded that has some Lithium Ion battery tech that is supposed to be better than the current generation because it uses silicon instead of carbon.  I also see another company that is working on a solid state battery for energy storage and is also being hyped but isn't making any money either. I'm wondering if there is a way to get up to speed on this.  Something that explains the stuff, but is not directed at people in the industry.

[Paarslaars]

Silicon instead of Carbon? You mean on the anode side I assume. This is industry wide already accepted as the next steps and quite a few companies are already producing and upscaling this.

 

I work for Umicore, we are involved in all components (cathode and anode for all applications and electrolyte for solid state).

 

Don't really have a primer on this but can answer some questions, difficult sector to make money in as there is a lot of pressure on price.

[Saluki]

I was looking at two public companies, amprius and enovix, which are both trying to make batteries with silicon anodes. They both using different fabrication techniques, but does one have an advantage over the other? Is the process something that can be protected with patents, or is it like current lithium batteries where efficiency is what matters bc everyone is working off the same formula and just trying to be better at it? Thanks @Paarslaars

[LC]

There are ancillary products that service the EV battery industry as well, here is a primer on the lithium cell pouches:

https://www.epectec.com/batteries/prismatic-pouch-packs.html

 

Aspen aerogels makes one such product (pyrothin):

https://www.aerogel.com/industries/battery-thermal-barriers/

 

They have some more info in their earnings presentation, slides 7-9 and 14

https://s28.q4cdn.com/942626632/files/doc_financials/2023/q2/aspn_q2-fy-2023-earnings-final.pdf

[Paarslaars]

9 hours ago, Saluki said:

I was looking at two public companies, amprius and enovix, which are both trying to make batteries with silicon anodes. They both using different fabrication techniques, but does one have an advantage over the other? Is the process something that can be protected with patents, or is it like current lithium batteries where efficiency is what matters bc everyone is working off the same formula and just trying to be better at it? Thanks @Paarslaars

 

Not very familiar with this so I checked with a colleague. He said both companies produce stand-alone Si anodes. This means they make the complete electrode themselves.

The advantage is high E-density, the down side is high cost. Also this is not a drop-in technology so battery cell makers need to adapt their production lines in order to implement it.

 

Basically it could be interesting in a nice business that requires high E-density and high life cycle. However not that applicable to EV's... so don't expect large growth.

[Saluki]

thanks @LC and @Paarslaars 

[jks327]

Aspen Aerogels is really cheap right now but not making any money, I remember meeting the founders when I went to engineering school in MA.  The thing I've heard about these batteries in the works is they all require lithium, and some of the ones in design require even more lithium than what's currently being used, so...

[james22]

On 9/12/2023 at 4:57 PM, jks327 said:

The thing I've heard about these batteries in the works is they all require lithium, and some of the ones in design require even more lithium than what's currently being used, so...

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/10/lithium-deposit-in-extinct-nevada-volcano-could-be-largest-in-the-world/

[Eng12345]

On 9/12/2023 at 5:57 PM, jks327 said:

Aspen Aerogels is really cheap right now but not making any money, I remember meeting the founders when I went to engineering school in MA.  The thing I've heard about these batteries in the works is they all require lithium, and some of the ones in design require even more lithium than what's currently being used, so...

I had shared of this company for quite awhile but took a nice haircut on issuance of new shares to fund the factory- maybe it’s time to take a closer look…without doing a deep dive it seems their language surrounding their new plant in Georgia has significantly changed since I got kicked in the nuts…the last two earnings press releases I interpret as “we don’t need the new plant online asap” which is worrying change from their previous language of full steam ahead.

 

 

[Spekulatius]

After reading about this, and the ~10x energy density advantage of Silicon anodes, I am fairly sure that where the tech is headed. Looks like the likely solution is micron or nano materials. I think the cost problem is going to be resolved over time, because a 10x energy density advantage is just too juicy to pass up.

 

I am not sure if those two startup companies are going to be winners, because it seems to me that right technical path to implement Si cathodes is still pretty much in the air.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Spekulatius

[Paarslaars]

Si cathodes? You mean anodes?

 

Well they are integrating Si in C now and gradually increasing the %. The problem is volume expansion... The Si can take up a lot more Li but needs the space for it.

 

So now they are integrating Nano Si but this needs a matrix of sorts to hold on to.

Edited September 16, 2023 by Paarslaars

[james22]

On 9/15/2023 at 6:23 PM, james22 said:

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/10/lithium-deposit-in-extinct-nevada-volcano-could-be-largest-in-the-world/

 

America Just Hit the Lithium Jackpot

 

The world’s largest known deposit was just discovered in Nevada. What does that mean?

 

https://archive.ph/rCmJZ

[jks327]

On 9/15/2023 at 7:23 PM, james22 said:

 

https://cleantechnica.com/2023/09/10/lithium-deposit-in-extinct-nevada-volcano-could-be-largest-in-the-world/

Good, not only quantity but density too.  Before this the Atacama is the richest source, problem is so many companies take what's mined there and ship to China to be refined.

[Spekulatius]

8 hours ago, james22 said:

 

America Just Hit the Lithium Jackpot

 

The world’s largest known deposit was just discovered in Nevada. What does that mean?

 

https://archive.ph/rCmJZ

Largest deposit means little, the devil is in the details. For example Germany has a huge lithium deposit in the Rhine valley , but progress to mine it is pretty slow:

https://www.mining.com/vulcan-energy-to-mine-60-more-german-lithium-than-planned/
 

Lithium is not particularly rare and there are actually quite a few deposits allover the world. To mine them economically is the harder part.

[sleepydragon]

1 minute ago, Spekulatius said:

Largest deposit means little, the devil is in the details. For example Germany has a huge lithium deposit in the Rhine valley , but progress to mine it is pretty slow:

https://www.mining.com/vulcan-energy-to-mine-60-more-german-lithium-than-planned/
 

Lithium is not particularly rare and there are actually quite a few deposits allover the world. To mine them economically is the harder part.

yeah, just like rare earth:  China export most of it. But it’s not rare at all. America has a lot too. It’s everywhere. but it’s not profitable to mine them in America and so all mines shut down over the years.

 

 

[sholland]

At the 14:15 minute mark this guy (Thunderf00t aka Phil Mason) claims that battery technology is probably as energy dense as it is going to get if you want to maintain things like safety, reliability, and rechargeability.  Any exports on this board disagree?

 

Edited September 23, 2023 by sholland

[james22]

Everything that can be Invented has been Invented?

[boilermaker75]

39 minutes ago, james22 said:

Everything that can be Invented has been Invented?

 

"The energy produced by the breaking down of the atom is a very poor kind of thing. Any one who expects a source of power from the transformation of these atoms is talking moonshine. ... ," Ernest Rutherford (1933).

Edited September 23, 2023 by boilermaker75

[rohitc99]

 if this works, it would be great. ofcourse fusion has always been 40 years away

[Spekulatius]

The ultimate battery uses matter/ antimatter annihilation. Might be a few years out until commercialization and safety issues need to be worked out.

[valueseek]

On 9/15/2023 at 9:06 PM, Eng12345 said:

I had shared of this company for quite awhile but took a nice haircut on issuance of new shares to fund the factory- maybe it’s time to take a closer look…without doing a deep dive it seems their language surrounding their new plant in Georgia has significantly changed since I got kicked in the nuts…the last two earnings press releases I interpret as “we don’t need the new plant online asap” which is worrying change from their previous language of full steam ahead.

 

 

I will just mention I met with $ASPN company management a few years ago. My recollection is it was one of the worse meetings where it was very evident doing some work management it fleecing the shareholders with some promise coming on the energy fracking side if I remember correctly. May be the story etc. all have changed, and outlook seems much brighter now. But I still see the same CEO - I for one will be wary. For anyone doing research, it is good to look at what they said and did from 2013 to 2020, what was CF, what was the dream and how much the management got paid and were they even required to be public, etc. Quick glance shows share count increasing from 24M to 70M roughly in the last decade. Hopefully for ppl involved, things are going to be different going forward in terms of prospects they are selling