OT - Sleep training a baby

[Castanza]

33 minutes ago, stahleyp said:

I don't know if it's 

 

A couple weeks ago we tried to sleep train and she went into the crib for an hour and woke up and I put her back to sleep. Another hour, she's up and I put her back to sleep. I was tired and went into the other room and closed the door...she woke up like an hour later again and my wife took her. Said she was crying, had tears and was hoarse from crying too much.

Two things some friends told us that worked for them. 
 

- Get a hot pad warm it up and put it in the crib where she’s going to lay. Then take it outa and lay her on the spot.
 

- Try walks or car rides later in the evening before bedtime. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, RichardGibbons said:

To not lose your mind with a baby who wants to co-sleep, I think the strategy is to remember the goal.  In my opinion, the goal isn't to figure out a way to make the baby sleep. It's to raise a well-adjusted, robust kid.

 

One thing that makes kids cry is anxiety.  Essentially, the kid is telling you that they are worried, and are unable to regulate their emotions on their own. If you go with "cry it out" strategies, I think you're effectively communicating to your kid that you aren't a reliable caregiver. You're communicating that you can't be depended on for protection and support when they need it. And they're learning that at a deep level.

On the other hand, if you do provide support when they tell you they need it, you are teaching them how to regulate their emotions and that you can be trusted to be there when they need you. They will be more comfortable exploring the world independently, because they know in their soul that if they run into something scary, you'll be there to help them.

 

The outcomes of this strategy tend to be kids and adults with higher self esteem, resilience, affection, and life satisfaction.

 

So, I'd suggest focusing on the outcome. Kids need attachment to parents, and, though it's quite annoying, by giving your child the attachment they need, you're increasing the odds they'll be happier in life. You'd likely take a bullet for your kid, so you should take solace that, to help them get better outcomes, you just need to suffer for a few more months.

 

(Yeah, I know--taking a bullet is easier because it's over quickly, while lack of sleep is an ongoing grind that seems never ending.  But I think it's worth it. And it will end.)

 

 

Did you cosleep with your kids, Richard? If so, how long did that last?

[yesman182]

14 hours ago, spartansaver said:

We had success with a program "Taking Cara Babies." Our now 10 month old has been sleeping 7-6:30 since 5 months or so. The biggest thing was letting her cry a little bit those first few times to let them put themselves to sleep. I think the program maxes the crying to 7 minutes then you sooth and start over. I felt it was some of the best money we've spent. Feels like the secret is to get out of the way and the baby will figure it out. 

We used https://takingcarababies.com/ too and it solved all out problems as well. We watched all the videos and then put the plan in action. Things aren't perfect but it was money I would spend again in a heart beat. 

[yesman182]

15 hours ago, stahleyp said:

Okay guys, I'm losing my mind. We have a 16 month old and she still isn't sleeping through the night. My wife is really against "crying it out" so we cosleep with her...every night - mostly me since she has a demanding job. My other 2 both started sleeping through the night at 9 months and I figured this one would too but I was very, very wrong. I keep hoping that it will "just happen" but I'm losing hope. I've talked to 2 people and they one said 2 years for his son and the other said 3 years for her child.

 

Anyone have any guidance on how to not lose my mind? I know there are some courses you can buy. Anyone have any experience with those or tips for a sleepless dad? Any help is very (very!) much appreciated. 

 

 

we were in the same position. our son would cry in the night so the easiest was to put him in bed with us. That was fine until he slept sideways on your pillows kicking us in the head all night. We used https://takingcarababies.com/ and he hasn't been in our bed since. The first night he cried in the crib with his mom sitting outside the crib for an hour, the next night was 20 min, the third night was 10 minutes and then minimal issues. The  course is like 50 videos, so you get you pay for and so it will take hours to watch, but it worked for us. 

[dipod]

Of course everyone is different. But in my experience, letting kids cry it out for a few nights is worth the long term benefit of them being sleep trained. Kids won't cry forever. At some point, they will tire out and fall asleep. After 2-3 nights, our little one became accustomed to sleeping alone. There are a few skirmishes here and there but most of the time sleeping through the night is what we have observed. And the earlier sleep training is done in my experience, the better. Around 6 weeks for me is generally what makes sense for sleep training. The initial sleep training requires a bit of internal fortitude on the part of the parents. But in the long run, the parents and the child will get more net sleep and a more peaceful home existence from pursuing this course of action. Everyone's mileage will obviously vary. Our little one sleeps from around 7p-7a +/- a few minutes this way and has largely been doing so since around 2ish months of life. 

 

On the subject of co-sleeping, I generally do not subscribe to it. They can sleep in a bassinet in our room for the first 4-6 weeks, but once that period is done, the bassinet moves to a different room. Co-sleeping on the same bed with us is tough because one could inadvertently sleep on them and that's certainly not a good thing.

Edited August 22, 2023 by dipod

[Paarslaars]

Do you know why the kid is waking up at night?

 

My youngest started sleeping through the night perfectly at 3 months old (yes we're lucky).

However, at around 9-12 months she started waking up at night  again... almost every night.

It turned out that she was well fed with bottles but as soon as we started giving real food, she ate less and always woke up at night because of hunger.

We started insisting a bit more that she ate full portions and since then she's not waking up at night anymore.

 

We never co-slept with our kids though, because it's so hard to get rid of it when they are used to it.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Paarslaars

[Guest]

For what it's worth, my wife is indian (so I don't know if this is just a cultural thing) but one of her relatives let her son sleep wth them until he was like 12 (13?) or something. Really trying to avoid that situation.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, yesman182 said:

we were in the same position. our son would cry in the night so the easiest was to put him in bed with us. That was fine until he slept sideways on your pillows kicking us in the head all night. We used https://takingcarababies.com/ and he hasn't been in our bed since. The first night he cried in the crib with his mom sitting outside the crib for an hour, the next night was 20 min, the third night was 10 minutes and then minimal issues. The  course is like 50 videos, so you get you pay for and so it will take hours to watch, but it worked for us. 

 

Did you do the full thing (nap, night sleep and phone) or just one? 

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, Paarslaars said:

Do you know why the kid is waking up at night?

 

My youngest started sleeping through the night perfectly at 3 months old (yes we're lucky).

However, at around 9-12 months she started waking up at night  again... almost every night.

It turned out that she was well fed with bottles but as soon as we started giving real food, she ate less and always woke up at night because of hunger.

We started insisting a bit more that she ate full portions and since then she's not waking up at night anymore.

 

We never co-slept with our kids though, because it's so hard to get rid of it when they are used to it.

 

Wow, lucky indeed!

 

Honestly, I think it's just a habit. Even on nights when she had a very good dinner (lots of fat and protein) she still wakes up. On a good night I'm up 4-6x on a bad night...it might be 15 or 20. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Castanza said:

Two things some friends told us that worked for them. 
 

- Get a hot pad warm it up and put it in the crib where she’s going to lay. Then take it outa and lay her on the spot.
 

- Try walks or car rides later in the evening before bedtime. 

 

 

Tried walks but didn't make a difference. Hot pad is a good idea though. Thanks! And congrats on your little one...life will never be the same. 

Edited August 22, 2023 by stahleyp

[Gregmal]

Yea kids in the bed means bad things lol. No soup for you!

 

Ours have occasionally done this even at older ages, but it’s not encouraged. Even tell my two oldest, 4 and 6, you have a nightmare, fine. Otherwise, go get yourself a snack and play in your room and then go back to bed. It also helps our bedroom is on the second floor and the kids are on the first. 

[zzzyx]

Our first kid had a terrible time getting to sleep.  We ended up using the Ferber method...which was tough for a couple days but ended up saving our lives.  Other 2 kids were pretty good sleepers from the get go but we also didn't let them trick us into bad habits (manipulative little devils).

[Castanza]

23 minutes ago, Gregmal said:

It also helps our bedroom is on the second floor and the kids are on the first. 

My wife is paranoid about doing this in the future. I don’t think it’s a big deal. How old were your kids when you put them downstairs? 

[Spekulatius]

1 hour ago, Paarslaars said:

Do you know why the kid is waking up at night?

 

My youngest started sleeping through the night perfectly at 3 months old (yes we're lucky).

However, at around 9-12 months she started waking up at night  again... almost every night.

It turned out that she was well fed with bottles but as soon as we started giving real food, she ate less and always woke up at night because of hunger.

We started insisting a bit more that she ate full portions and since then she's not waking up at night anymore.

 

We never co-slept with our kids though, because it's so hard to get rid of it when they are used to it.

Same here. Our son never slept in our bed, except for naps during daytime. We had a crip at the foot of our bed from the beginning. Then we moved the crip to his own bedroom when he was about 3 month old and started the sleep training.

 

We found that rituals work. Do what works and then repeat it over and over.

For our son, wrapping him really tight in a blanket (like a burrito) such that he could barely move, worked well with him for a while. You will know when they don't like it any more.

Every kid is different. What works for one may not work for the other.

[Gregmal]

27 minutes ago, Castanza said:

My wife is paranoid about doing this in the future. I don’t think it’s a big deal. How old were your kids when you put them downstairs? 

From birth basically. Its easier that way. Keep a monitor in there, theyre good. 

[Paarslaars]

1 hour ago, stahleyp said:

 

Wow, lucky indeed!

 

Honestly, I think it's just a habit. Even on nights when she had a very good dinner (lots of fat and protein) she still wakes up. On a good night I'm up 4-6x on a bad night...it might be 15 or 20. 

Are you perhaps getting up too quickly? How long do you let her cry before getting up?

 

I ask because I remember our youngest often waking up slightly and rolling/crying but there was a 50/50 chance that if I did not get up she would go back to sleep within 10min.

 

We always had the kids sleep on a different floor starting around the time they were 2-3months old.

Edited August 22, 2023 by Paarslaars

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, Paarslaars said:

Are you perhaps getting up too quickly? How long do you let her cry before getting up?

 

I ask because I remember our youngest often waking up slightly and rolling/crying but there was a 50/50 chance that if I did not get up she would go back to sleep within 10min.

 

We always had the kids sleep on a different floor starting around the time they were 2-3months old.

 

So she sleeps right next to me (cosleep...not exactly my way but you only fight battles you can win). I don't usually wait a long time to give her milk or put a binky in her mouth. I guess I'm just afarid that if I don't act quickly, she'll wake up more and have a harder time going back to sleep (plus I'm already tired and just trying to go back to sleep too). 

[Errold]

Besides crying it out, I think it really depends on the kid.

 

My 1st pretty much didn't sleep through the night regularly till around 2 or 2.5, had lots of night terrors, woke up screaming, crying inconsolable, crying until they puke.  He was sleeping around 11 hours and started skipping naps around 1 year old.  Now even at 3.5, he hates sleep, he will force himself to stay awake, even if he is dead tired looks like a raccoon.  

 

So we were ready for more of the same when number 2 came around.  Number 2 luckily seems more along the lines of a normal baby and sleep mostly through the night by around the 1 year mark.

 

Not sure how your financial situation is, but a night nanny a possibility or cutting back on work temporarily?  Just keep telling yourself it gets better... and it does eventually.

 

Wife was on maternity leave and I eased off work a bit during those really rough patches.

 

Any family to help out during the day?

 

Good luck!

 

 

[Sweet]

As mentioned, co-sleeping is a mistake.

 

Ferber crying out method worked for us.

 

Every baby is different though.

[RichardGibbons]

6 hours ago, stahleyp said:

 

Did you cosleep with your kids, Richard? If so, how long did that last?

 

Yep. We basically removed one side of the crib and attached it to our bed so that essentially the crib became an extension of the bed.

 

Neither my wife nor I remember how long it lasted, but I'm thinking until about the age of three.  The fact that neither of us really remembers the transition very well is indicative to me that at that point, our kids were easily sleeping through the night, weren't large enough to be annoying in bed, and that the transition period wasn't painful at all. 

[RichardGibbons]

15 hours ago, beerbaron said:

Anybody that tells you letting a kid cry out is bad for their mental health needs to take a step back trough evolution, birds throw their babies out of the nest and, for thousands of years, human kids were neglected based on today's standard.

 

Odd decision, citing bird parenting as the model to follow rather than human parenting. Human parents have co-slept throughout history.

But if one is too frustrated, it's fine to ignore science. Lots of people ignore evidence and correlation is not causation. It could be that the co-slept kids are better adjusted and happier not because of the co-sleeping, but because their parents are more loving and kind. Maybe their parents are less authoritarian, when the non-co-sleepers care much more about control. Maybe co-sleepers simply care more for their kids or pay more attention to their kids than non-co-sleepers, and that's what causes the difference in outcomes.

 

Heck, once one starts saying, "it's ok if I mess up my kid by not co-sleeping. No big deal", one could imagine similarly saying, "No big deal if I yell at my kid." Then "No big deal if I hurt my kid because I'm angry", or whatever.  Maybe not co-sleeping is an indicator of which parents are willing to justify trading their kids' health for their own short-term happiness.

 

Because correlation isn't causation, and all the co-sleeping studies seem to be correlational. (My poorly-educated bet would be it comes down to attachment parenting vs authoritarian parenting styles.)

[RichardGibbons]

I just had another discussion with my wife about this, and she actually remembered more than she did when we chatted earlier. To ease the transition, what we did was put our mattress on the floor, and the kid's mattress immediately adjacent (after the kid had graduated from the crib.)

 

Then, when the kid fussed at night, the parent could easily move into the bed until the kid chilled, then return their own bed. Initially, it was harder for the parent (because you have to roll off your bed onto their mattress, which is more annoying than just falling asleep right away.) But she remembers that it didn't take long before the kid realized which bed was theirs to sleep in and that having their own bed didn't mean that their parent was abandoning them for the night.  And then there was just a transition to another room.

 

[zzzyx]

25 minutes ago, RichardGibbons said:

But if one is too frustrated, it's fine to ignore science. Lots of people ignore evidence and correlation is not causation. It could be that the co-slept kids are better adjusted and happier not because of the co-sleeping, but because their parents are more loving and kind. Maybe their parents are less authoritarian, when the non-co-sleepers care much more about control. Maybe co-sleepers simply care more for their kids or pay more attention to their kids than non-co-sleepers, and that's what causes the difference in outcomes.

 

Heck, once one starts saying, "it's ok if I mess up my kid by not co-sleeping. No big deal", one could imagine similarly saying, "No big deal if I yell at my kid." Then "No big deal if I hurt my kid because I'm angry", or whatever.  Maybe not co-sleeping is an indicator of which parents are willing to justify trading their kids' health for their own short-term happiness.

 

LOL....the appeal to "SCIENCE"....and then the extrapolation to child abuse.  Too funny!

[Castanza]

Different strokes for different folks. I’m sure every kid is different and different things work for everyone. 
 

My wife being a NICU nurse is very much Safe Sleep oriented. Co-sleeping is not considered safe if the kid is in your bed. It’s interesting how different the standards are country to country. Here is the US the infant needs to be on their back swaddled with NOTHING in the crib with them. But I was reading that in the UK, Australia, and Denmark it’s ok to have a blanket tucked around them but no higher than their armpits. Hell when I was a baby it was apparently fine to sleep on your belly. Today every mommy blogger would crucify you if you mention that. In the US it was common until the recommended change in early 90s. 
 

We’re currently using a bassinet next to the bed. Will try to transition them to the nursery around 3-4 months. Put them down for naps there during the day and no issues so far.

I think some common sense prevails. 

 

@RichardGibbons Self soothing is also a well documented and defined approach for babies over 3 months of age. So there is more than one way to skin a cat. I know a few couples who never had their infant in their room and never had any issues with it. I think your extrapolation to parenting outcomes is a bit far fetched and unsubstantiated. 

[Kazid]

As a new dad of a 10 week old, it's nice to hear everyone's perspectives.

I feel you, @stahleyp!

 

I wouldn't give much weight to my comments given n=1 and being so early in the journey, but for what it's worth we are cosleeping and do not plan on sleep training at this point. That could change, but so far we're overall happy with things. Around weeks 3-5 weeks our son started sleeping for 3.5-4.5 hour blocks, and I think around week 6 we got one glorious 5 hour block! It's regressed a bit the last few weeks, but consistently getting 3.5-4 now, with a few 4.5s sprinkled in.

 

Here are some of the patchwork approach of things we've been doing:

• Sunlight exposure early in the day, preferably some midday, and towards sunset. Just like with adults, this exposure both early and late when the sun is lower in the sky is helpful in setting the circadian rhythm, and thus has some impact on sleep. I believe babies don't start developing this until 2+ months and it's an ongoing thing, but I have to think it helps to some degree. Sample size is small, but we think he does better on days when he's outside more.
• Having something of a routine at night. Can't tell you the "right" one, but generally trying to create a progressively calmer environment as we approach the first nighttime sleep cycle. Low/no lights. Quiet, calm voices. Gentle music. Not intense playing/jostling. Slow movements. 
• Making sure he gets naps in during the day and does not get overtired. He definitely is harder to get down and keep down when we keep him up too long during the day, normally as a result of visitors.
• Squeezing in a bit extra feeding closer to bed, so if normally spaced/following cues and it's 2 hours, maybe go 1.5 out from bedtime and right before bedtime to "top off".
• When he wakes during the night, don't instantly go to him. If he's wailing sure, but general movement or light wimpering let him be. Their sleep cycle is short and they awaken during it, and sometimes (hopefully) put themselves back down after a brief wake.
• Our son struggles with gas (although getting better) at night, so we preemptively bicycle his legs when we go to bed to help work stuff out so he stays down.
• We sometimes notice he does not stay down when we don't burp him well enough. Now of course we think we do it well enough, but then we find sometimes he wakes up in 10-25 minutes, we console him, and a burp slips out. Thus we didn't actually get it all out. So really trying to get some solid burps out before putting the baby down is worth it so it doesn't wake them up too soon.
• We actually hold him during his first sleep cycle and we watch a movie. He doesn't like sleeping while not being held in general, so we hold him, turn off the lights, face him away from screen, and watch a movie on quiet. After he does this first cycle, he is sleepy and stays down better.

Who knows what if any of it is helping, but we're making it.

 

Gota love it.